Rank Testing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

My sifu didn’t really take the belts/sashes too seriously. They were there because westerners expect belts.

Sometimes there were tests. The tests usually included forms and sparring (people at our school were expected to learn how to actually fight) sometimes there were no tests. Sometimes you didn’t know that you were being tested.

Once I was tested by being told to teach the first half of a class. A week later sifu handed me a new belt after class. I asked if I was going to have to do a belt test and he said I already had.

22

ok, cool all the way around…still a sweet bike.

how do you make a homeage eeg? that would be super cool to test my Ichi powers.

I heard chuck norris taught bruce lee everything he knew about nunchucks…

ok, the punch line to that was even a bit beyond my usual tastelessness so i’ll stop there…you can guess the rest.

I still say Chuck has hired a really good PR manager in the last 6 months.

23

In ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiao Association), the local schools can test their blue belt anyway they like, a complete freedom there. But to test their black belt, the student has to get 3 out of 4 board directories approve in order to get his 1st degree black belt. At least 3 signatures will be required on the certificate.

In order to get his 2nd degree black belt, that student has to enter Sanshou tournament and obtain at least 1st or 2nd place. This will truely force the student to fight in the full contact world.

To reach to the 3rd degree black belt, the student has to test his counter and combo ability.

After the 3rd degree black belt there won’t be any testing but just comtribution to the CMA world such as book publishing, DVD publishing, work shop presenting, tournament fighters training, and bring team to compete in international events.

Not saying this is the best testing system but just for reference. I do think that “no single instructor can give black to anyone” is a serious “quality control” here.

24

well, I think you can argue the rank thing for days…but we had a pretty profound night last night in just class testing some kids for a ‘star’ on just there white sash kicks. We do 7 stars between each sash level and the curriculum is divided into 7 sections at each level and they test in class for those. Last night was the ‘test’ for kicks at that level and a couple of ‘ok’ kids got all serious and blasted out some relatively awesome kicks.

25

food for thought

I suppose Westerners really do expect belts. In school I strived for grades and diplomas. I always studied hard with the immediate goal of doing well on the next test. The end result, luckily, was rounded education. Likewise, in the martial arts, I find myself motivated by the rank system. I would not have practiced my forms all weekend if I hadn’t had a test on Monday. I have been trained since birth to strive for large goals based on the systematic attainment (and implied recognition and reward) of smaller ones

Has anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons where the childrens’ school burns down? Bart absolutely thrives being out of school for so long, whereas Lisa starts to develop a severe anxiety disorder. She finally cracks and screams to her mother “test me, grade me, rank me!!” Marge writes an “A” on a napkin and hands it to Lisa to calm her. I am so Lisa.

What I wonder is…is this necessarily a bad thing? From a Buddhist/Taoist perspective, yes, I think this is in direct opposition to these teachings. But from a practical perspective? I wonder if I would have worked as hard learning medicine if I didn’t know that at the end of the torture I would have earned the degree and title. On the other hand, it could be argued that no matter how badly one wants to attain a title or rank, no one will achieve advanced levels without discovering an innate love of the subject matter.

Perhaps, thus, one begins with the goal of achieving a rank and either 1) finds the work to be tedious and quits or 2) develops a love of the subject which transcends his or her original, perhaps petty, goals. Then, over time, one actually gains the rank DESPITE oneself.

Which reminds me of why I haven’t reached enlightenment yet. Because I WANT to. I have to rid my heart of all desire and then, so my readings tell me, the light will click on.

I suppose this is why so many Westerners have turned to the Martial Arts and Eastern Philosophies–to escape the rank/title/award mindset which renders life a rat race. Ironic, then, the sashes and belts and testing, yes? Perhaps when the time comes for me to test for green sash I should decline the offer. Stay orange for years. Better yet, ask sifu to demote me to no rank again. Do the five forms I know and learn no others, simply perfect and polish and live these five.

I’m going to go meditate on this.

p.s. do it yourself eeg:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/

26

Chris,

No doubt. I’ve never liked anything he did.

‘Lipton’ the host you love to hate. I love that show…the one w/ Billy Joel is perhaps second only to the one w/ Robin Williams. If you havn’t caught the Robin Williams episode…holy crap! It’s two hours long because Robin steals the first half hour with a level of insanity only he can kick out.

27

dammmmmm…

Best Post by Member with less than 100 posts, 2006.

Welcome.

:slight_smile:

28

I believe it was in the morals and philosophies thread i asked the question how do buddhists/taoists justify things such as goals or is there no justification. Check out that thread to see their responces.

29

I’ve seen a range of rank testing from being observed in class over a weeklong period to formal testing that included demonstrating techniques on partners and sparring multiple opponents.

I really not a big fan of formal testing but I can how it would be important and fulfilling to some.

What I like is the grappling way of rank advancement by consistantly beating guys at the next higher rank.

30

what a great metaphor.

I am reminded of Chuang Tzu (Thomas Merton translation)

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets–
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed.
But the prize divides him.
He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting–
And the need to win
Drains him of power.

In fact, even the Olympic Creed echos this:

"The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

Then, of course, they go and give out medals.

31

Interesting story. Slightly similar to my past. I started in Karate and dropped before getting a black belt. I did bother me so I eventually landed in a kung fu school and I was adamant about staying ‘to the end’. The ‘end’ being black belt, or equivalent.

So I stayed there for 15 years earning an instructor certificate. That alone satisfied my need for ‘rank’ but did not satisfy my need for skill and knowledge.

So, I’m off on another adventure. One that doesn’t require ranks, title or certificates.

32

my background runs from 7 years w/ a teacher who didn’t do rank

to 13 years w/ one who did and I certainly did like some aspects of it…especially when early on as a white and gold sash I was thrashing some (not all) of his black sash students ;)…and also much later as I became his senior student and got to teach a lot.

then I moved to be able to teach on my own and to look for more…the first thing I did was revamp the sash groupings by not strapping a sash on them first thing then as I joined up w/ Pong Lai and they did not use sashes I gladly chucked them and most of my students at the time gladly put them aside as well.

but, later, I saw that I wasn’t reaching some of them…and wasn’t reaching hardly any of the new ones and they were just kinda in a holding pattern…even with the tons of new material I was kicking out.

so, now, after my shifu decided that we were going to get organized. We are back in to a sash system and most everyone is content and happy and most certainly it seems to be proving a valuable focus aid w/ children.

so, maybe in America at least, it’s got more to do w/ your market, who you attract in general, and not holding to a spiritual ideal as a teacher when your students don’t have the same value. The vast majority of people out there have the idea of a rank structure in their head. If you can get them interested and move them on to other ideals later then fine.

33

I disagree that you need a sash to identify rank. The class should know the rank of everyone else from sparring. If they can’t tell this thru sparring then there is a problem with the class and no amount of sash system will help.

34

good for you :smiley:

35

Our sashes are different and rather than a set number of calastenics, we need to “demonstrait our knowledge of streting exersized and power exersizes”. And after we are all hot,sweaty and trying not to throw up from getting kicked in tummy sparring, we get to sit down to a nice written test on stylistic knowledge, history, and chinese terminology.

But other than that? Yep, pretty much the same.:slight_smile:

36

yeah, that’s new.

37

Sure on any given day ppl’s skill can fluctuate. But there should also be a level of consistancy in performance over time otherwise it will be just random and the skill is worthless.

Sparring should be realistic enough - eg. senor vs senior - you should see very hard for either one to get their techniques working on the other because it will be countered. Senior vs junior - should overcome the junior in a couple of moves. senior vs intermediate - consistancy of success but more challenge.

In fact beginners will know who are the seniors real fast.

I’ve seen some TKD classes where the blue belt beats the black belt or is a tag game and neither gets anywhere - take away their belts and I won’t know who is junior or senior - IMO belts is just for appearence

38

There is another thing that is important to the senior / junior divide Green Willow. Something just as important within the martial arts community as ability to fight…

Ability to teach.

Just because you can drop somebody in the ring does not mean you can teach well.

39

Yes, that’s why all the higher ranks take turns to give instructons to the lower ranks. Even the higher ranks learn from the lower ranks if a lower rank spots something that a higher rank could improve on.

Even in terms of fighting skill - you could be the best overall, but it doesn’t mean that you’re better than everyone else in every department.

40

Yes I agree if done correctly rank and skill should be consistent.

Sparring can be realistic but shouldn’t be unsafe. think of a pack of wolves establishing thier pecking order. It’s not done in a way that loses an eye or limb everytime. It’s done though mock fights & play.