Questions about Wah Lum.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
61

[QUOTE=mantid1;790976]Citong

Well as I said before…my fighting isnt based on mantis…more like san shou. I think it is the most efficeint and fastest method to gain experience to defend yourself for a real fight.

Believe me when I tell you this…you dont want to see my guys fight. Most are guys in there late 30’s or early 40’s doing it because they like the physical contact and enjoy fighinting…not to worried about looking great and being world class fighters. They dont care if it is mantis or not…just what works for them.

The younger generation in my area arnt so interested in taking the lumps you can get while fighting.

I would love to seem some clips…but you said that you teach other styles than mantis but when you fight. You said:

" I dont only train mantis, we also train Fujian Shaolin, Tong Bei, & Ziranmen so I’ll try to show a little of everything we do for analysis between our shool styles… We pretty much approach everything in the same manner regardless of style"

If you pretty much approach the fighting in the same manner regardless of style why teach different styles? If you do this your fighting will not be close enough to mantis to be “mantis fighting” it is a mix. The ony thing you would get from teaching different styles is the forms…no martial benefit at all and if your mantis students arnt learning fighting that isnt mantis specific…then they arnt learning mantis either.

I dont have a problem with that. I enjoy the forms myself. In fact Im not in the chinese arts for the fighting…I think there are faster ways to become a fighter…muay thai…san shou…

When it comes to others posting video dont wast your time with drills or “techniques in a sparring format”. To truly represent your style fighters should be geared up and go for it…it can be controlled…safety should be the first concern…but that being said you should be able to go at it fairly fast and furious to represent your style using techniques that are clearly from a mantis based style.

There are more than enough clips out there with people trading off in drills…or the instructor knocking the crap out of a student with a pre arranged sequence that the instructor knows much better than the student.

A good example would be the guy on the forum asking advice about fighting a tai kwan do guy. It should be as real as possible with safety in mind…but no limitations like no kicking to the head or legs, no take downs etc…

If the guy really wanted to try out his mantis…he should have just fought and not ask for any pointers…no coachining allowed just use your stuff. That would give a great example.

I hope im not coming across with an attitude. Im sure you have a great school.

But, when it comes down to people talking about other schools if they are traditional or not I think the only way to prove it is to show the final product. If some one was saying the same things about your school I would chime in and say the same things on your behalf.

The knee problem issue…well do you would not believe the amount of people I have met who has had knee surgery…and never studied the arts a day in their lives.

As far as I am concerned…Im not so worried about fighting anymore. I just want to have a happy and healthy life.[/QUOTE]

Mantid1,
Thats correct, I do other styles other than mantis. Where the difference lies is the amount of knowledge of techniques one get when learning the other styles. Lets say I just focus on the mantis. Mantis is known for the mantis claw/s correct. Now outside of the characteristic mantis claw, mantis has punches, palm strikes, finger strikes, grabs, etc. Tong Bei is primarily an open hand style that not only uses open hand techniques, but punches, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Long Fist, punches, open hand palm strikes, grabs, finger strikes, etc. Ziranmen, well, Ziranmen is more of a principle that teaches to use everything no matter the style (very, very, short and simple definition of the style). I’ve only discussed the hand work that makes each style characteristically different, I have even discussed the kicking, posture, stance work, etc of each style, but I can guarantee the same approach to training the styles and skills are the same, with the diiference being what are the characteristic movements or postures of each individual styles…

As you can see, this is why we approach fighting in the same manner as mantis vs. tong bei or tong bei vs. long fist. All styles share the exact same techniques, no matter the style. Mantis uses the mantis claw to grab, hook, claw, etc. Tong Bei uses its wide array of open hand techniques to do the same. As well as long fist. Heck, Tiger and Eagle claw styles use there characteristic claw postures to do the same. You see, thats why its all approached in the same manner.

And, being aggressive when sparring is not charateristic to any one style over another. Alot of styles today just dont show the standards and skills there suppost to be representing…

Once a person starts to define their movements they are already limited, blinding thenselves to what their style has to offer. In the old days kung fu masters learned a variety of kung fu styles, not just one. All the old famous masters where masters of several different styles. Believe that.

I understand your position on this subject and I see all the points your making. I used to ask myself the same questions. But, now, I’ve realized that the only person that can myself back is me… So, I’ve gone forward making sure I obtain the understanding necessary to train all aspects of the cma…

Take care my friend.
Ron

62

Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now… filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the ‘one true system’ whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I’ll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn’t entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn’t wine that improves with age - I’ve seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the ‘I honestly can’t remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place’ comments. When you follow that up with ‘…and I’m qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years’, it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn’t find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I’ve been a member for far more than ‘several years’ - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived ‘traditionalism’ of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I’ve made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

  • CS
63

[QUOTE=Chop Socki;791016]Poor, poor thread. It started out so nobly, with an honest question from a new student looking for reasonable discourse on the Wah Lum system. Look at it now… filled with axe grinding and poorly-hidden personal agendas.

Seriously folks, some of this stuff is just pure, unadulterated nonsense. Wah Lum is bad because their Grandmaster has made up forms? When you can point out the ‘one true system’ whose forms were passed down from a mountain on stone tablets, I’ll accept the validity of that argument. If the Grandmaster isn’t entitled to contribute to the growth of the system, who is? The value in a form is in the applications, as well as the contributions it makes to improving balance, strength and flexibility. It isn’t wine that improves with age - I’ve seen brand new forms that had great value, and hundred year old forms that were useless.

The same goes for the ‘I honestly can’t remember now why I ever liked that system in the first place’ comments. When you follow that up with ‘…and I’m qualified to say that because I studied the system for several years’, it just makes you look more foolish for having donated so much of your time and money to something you couldn’t find value in.

My involvement with the Wah Lum system - and I’ve been a member for far more than ‘several years’ - is not based on the drama - either here or at the schools. My satisfaction does not derrive from the age or perceived ‘traditionalism’ of the material, the cut of the uniform pants, or on my personal relationship with Master Chan, his daughter, his wife or his shoe salesman. I’ve made a critical evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses and acted appropriately based on the results as I perceive them. Regardless of the direction that your own decision takes you, I welcome each of you to do the same.

Regards,

  • CS[/QUOTE]

LOL, I thought we were all discussing what we liked and disliked! Sure, I made some comments, thats how I feel. I’ll state it again. WL to me is a waste of time! Nothing will change my mind. I know what I have now. I also know what I’ve had to go through to get where I’m at today. I have no hidden agenda. I have seen many WL people recently throughout my competition travels and there still doing the same things that I have mentioned and more. Dont get me wrong, I’m not talking about every WL student, but the majority represents the validity of my comments. Anyway, I’m not going to waste my time explaining myself. I was there and I’m not the only one who feels the same way. WL has lost so many of its seniors throughout the last several years due to many of the reasons that have been discussed. Those are the facts. Enjoy your WL training, I hope the best for you, I really do. It was hard for me to accept the time and money I wasted too. Now I know. I found the value of my training elsewhere. I certainly dont feel I’m wsting my time now.

Take care. Best of luck.
Ron

64

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;791025] …I certainly dont feel I’m wasting my time now.[/QUOTE]

When all is said and done, that’s all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

  • CS
65

[QUOTE=Chop Socki;791031]When all is said and done, that’s all that really matters.

Best of luck to you as well,

  • CS[/QUOTE]

Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I’ve heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol… From what I’ve heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron

66

For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.

67

[QUOTE=yu shan;791047]For such a poor poor thread just under 1400 views in 13 days is not too shabby.[/QUOTE]

1400, wow! Thats alot of views.

68

When Citong Shifu speaks…peopls listen!

:slight_smile:

69

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;791043]Chop Sockie,
How long have you been in WL. I’ve heard that WL has made quite a bit of changes since the last time I was involved with the art. I still keep in touch with some of the old guys who still train WL, there lifers, lol… From what I’ve heard WL has a slightly different twist to it then the old days. Ok, take care.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Citong Shifu -

I’ve been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I’m not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes… honestly, that’s a tough one. As ‘just one of the guys’ who isn’t necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between ‘system-level’ changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

  • CS
70

[QUOTE=mantid1;791091]When Citong Shifu speaks…peopls listen!

:)[/QUOTE]

I doubt that, lmao :D. I cant even get my children to listen to me :eek:.

71

[QUOTE=Chop Socki;791113]Citong Shifu -

I’ve been involved in Wah Lum for about 20 years. I’m not sure what qualifies as an old timer, though I did co-exist with the Sean, Tracy, Troy, Dean, etc. generation, if that helps.

As far as changes… honestly, that’s a tough one. As ‘just one of the guys’ who isn’t necessarily privy to super-secret insider information, I have a hard time distinguishing between ‘system-level’ changes imposed from the top and more local changes. I still think that while the core system may be standardized across schools, what you actually learn - the emphasis, the interpretation, and even, at higher levels, the material - is affected more by the quality of the instructor than anything Master Chan can control from Orlando. The places and people you knew may not have changed at all, while the place down the road could be completely different from what you ever experienced.

Good health to you and yours,

  • CS[/QUOTE]

Chop Sockie,
I was mainly talking about the changes in the curriculum since I’ve been gone, like little fan cha, say lok, etc. All in all, there’s little changes here and there that wasn’t curriculum when I was there. What is you name? I probably know you since you were there when Sean, Troy, Bob, & Tracey was around… Yea, I’ve seen alot of the other WL school outside of Orlando adding CLF, Hung Gar, etc to there curriculum. Just kinda curious about that. Chan normally didnt allow add ons to the program unless it was being taught seperately… Anyway, doesnt matter, I teach other styles too :D. Just back in my WL day, things were watched very close by Chan, he always knew what was going on, lol… He was something else, lol… Definitely had conviction!

Take care.
Ron

72

As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don’t mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what’s currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she’s an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that’s what you’re seeing as current changes.

73

[QUOTE=Yao Sing;791192]As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don’t mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what’s currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she’s an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that’s what you’re seeing as current changes.[/QUOTE]

Yao Sing, That makes alot of sense. Thats probably what I’m seeing. Yes, I have seen alot of wushu out of her these last several years, was wondering about that. Oh well, gotta go with the times… In todays commercial martial art business, as with all business, its a buyers market, choke, choke :). When I was coming up in the martial arts you bought (signed up) what was being sold. Now! People buy (sign up) in what they want!!! The buyers market, gotta love it… Its too bad that most of the public (the majority) cant see what there missing or giving up just to have what they want, when they want it :(. Anyway this is the world we live in today. All we can do is keep on push’n.

Regards.
Ron.

74

I haven’t seen the latest handbook but as far as I know all the curriculum changes were made by MC himself. He added some of the seminar sets and moved things around.

I practically jumped a whole level when that happened but by that time I was in the “learn what fits you” stage. I never really followed the curriculum anyhow for most of my time there.

MC would just grab a couple of us senior guys and say we were going to start learning X. Some of the seminars he would teach only half of the set then later on at the Temple he would teach us the rest of the set.

Anyhow, I would expect Mimi to put her stamp on the style someday and add one of her own creation.

I never got much insight into any of the branch schools so I’ll leave that to others to discuss. I do know MC leaves quite a lot of flexibility in what and how you teach, just as long as you stick to the basic curriculum.

Non-Wuh Lum material can be taught but can not be more than 40% of the school.
That’s an awful lot of flexibility right there.

75

[QUOTE=Yao Sing;791192]As far as I know Mimi has a free hand to take it in any direction she chooses. I don’t mean extreme changes but how classes are run, what is taught and when, etc.

She picked up a lot of training ideas on the China trips and seems to learn towards contemporary Wu Shu, or what’s currently replacing it (the trend back to traditional will end with a mix somewhere between the two).

Since she’s an actress I would think she would go full bore into the performance side so maybe that’s what you’re seeing as current changes.[/QUOTE]

Good Lord… :eek::eek:

Well, there you go. There’s no way Mimi can fill Master Chan’s shoes, especially if she’s persuing an acting career at the same time.

I was there in 84 when Master Chan was still teaching classes and again later during the Sean, Tracy days. “He” (MC) was the draw and to train at a Temple. Man, it was great to go in the mornings. The smell of the incense, the atmosphere of the Temple, Master Chan yelling at this or that. Ha ha…

Seminars with Shek Kin, Lee Koon Hung, Mok Poi On, Brendon Lai.

Wah Lum Manual Picture:
http://members.bigvalley.net/wuji/wlman1.jpg

Fond memories.

76

Woli, I got to experience some of these fond memories as well, great pic btw.

77

That pic is just before my time there but I do remember, and have trained with, most of the people shown. I moved to Florida end of 89 and saw the anniversary show, started a new job and bought a house beginning of 90 and started class at the Temple. Was there about 15 years (including having my own school) before fading off into the online forum wasteland.

Those were some fun days and I have no regrets. Could have been better, and I spoke up plus made some suggestions, but I was under no illusion it was something more than what was claimed.

It was pretty much what I was looking for and since I had quite a bit of previous training I knew exactly what was being offered. Guess that’s why I don’t have the animosity found amongst other ex-students.

There was a time when I almost went back to Kenpo because I was missing some aspects of the training, and I had my periods of complaining because things weren’t EXACTLY how I felt they should be but all-in-all it was a good, positive experience.

78

Ciitong

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a buyers market and has been for a long time. Anyone can open a school on the street corner…so there is a lot competition out there.

The way I look at it is if I have 100 students…maybe 20 will be serious and want to do actual fighting…out of those 20 maybe 3 or 4 will want the complete package…forms, drills, tradition etc. Out of those 3 or 4 maybe one will be around for longer than a few years. More thatn likely that one person will not be gifted physically or I will have to do a lot of work to overcome some type of mental issues with the student.

So, I figure I can let the not so serious ones (recreational Martial artists) pay the bills and let the serious have a chance at becoming martial artist. I dont sell out…I just dont expect as much out of the “recreational martial artists”.

I figure I can produce more dedicated martial artists (than a person teaching a few people at a time) if I have have a bigger pool of recreational martial artist to pull from.

The old saying goes “It takes 1000 students to get one worthwhile instructor”. The more people you have coming through the door the better chance you have a passing on your material.

79

[QUOTE=mantid1;791222]Ciitong

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is a buyers market and has been for a long time. Anyone can open a school on the street corner…so there is a lot competition out there.

The way I look at it is if I have 100 students…maybe 20 will be serious and want to do actual fighting…out of those 20 maybe 3 or 4 will want the complete package…forms, drills, tradition etc. Out of those 3 or 4 maybe one will be around for longer than a few years. More thatn likely that one person will not be gifted physically or I will have to do a lot of work to overcome some type of mental issues with the student.

So, I figure I can let the not so serious ones (recreational Martial artists) pay the bills and let the serious have a chance at becoming martial artist. I dont sell out…I just dont expect as much out of the “recreational martial artists”.

I figure I can produce more dedicated martial artists (than a person teaching a few people at a time) if I have have a bigger pool of recreational martial artist to pull from.

The old saying goes “It takes 1000 students to get one worthwhile instructor”. The more people you have coming through the door the better chance you have a passing on your material.[/QUOTE]

How true, how true! This is kinda where I’m at with my school. Sometimes I hear people use the phrase, sell out or other choice comments, but the fact still remains, this is a buyers market and if you want to persue the martial arts on a full-time basis then one better get with the program… I tell people all the time, I’m not a martial artist because I’m a teacher or own a ma school, lol… Its funny how people think. I have to remind people all the time or tell them for the first time that a martial artist desribes the individual and the way they live (loosely translated), not their title or material belongings (school owner), lol :confused:. Anywho, I’m getting tired of the wannabe traditionalist who claims everyone is a sell out. Most of us has a ma business, we’re business men and martial artist… As you’ve said, we pull from recreational group and pass on the more indepth knowledge to those who appreciate it as much as we do… Ranting, lol… Another sore spot…

Anyway, I have to admit. Regardless of what I think of WL as an art, I sure did have alot of fun while I was there. Crazy, crazy times.

Ron.

80

Ah, curriculum changes, sorry, I misunderstood.

As others have already said, pretty much all of that is seminar related. For years Master Chan would teach seminars, but the things he taught never made it into the curriculum. I think people pushed back with the very reasonable complaint that went something like ‘why should I pay for (and practice) something that I can’t use to test?’, and little by little, things that were initially introduced in seminars like Sil Fan Cha and Say Lok eventually made their way into the system. If it isn’t obvious, these additions are limited to things introduced by Master Chan or, in rare cases, his top instructors: you’ll never see someone testing for Wah Lum certification using a Choi Lai Fut form they learned in a seminar from Lee Koon Hung.

On a related note, many years ago Master Chan ran into a similar situation with clothing being sold at the Temple. He had expanded to so many variations of styles and colors for uniform shirts that it really defeated the purpose of having a uniform in the first place… to have everyone look… well, uniform. Even though he continued selling all sorts of things, he decreed that the ‘standard’ accepted uniform would be the black shirt with white letters… which was fine, until the purchases of everything else pretty much dropped off to nothing. Just like with the case for seminar material, people wondered why they should be expected to buy all sorts of Wah Lum logo shirts if they wouldn’t be allowed to use them in class. I believe he eventually relented.

Hey… we’re all still learning, right? :wink:

  • CS