Questions about Wah Lum.

Citong_Shifu · August 24, 2007, 4:02pm

[QUOTE=mantid1;789966]Well, if people are mislead that is because of their own stupidity. The name of the style is Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantis Kung Fu. Tam Tui being named first because it plays the bigger role in the system. Norhtern Praying mantis being named second because it plays a much smaller role in the sytem…but it did play a role and out of respect is included in the name.

What is so hard to figure out about that? Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying mantiis kung Fu…Can people not read the words Tam Tui?

It states in the hand book that it is a mix. Students get that when they join. On the front of the hand book it says Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis kung fu. Students get this information the first day they join.

If a student cant figure this out then they are the one with the problem.

For the people eluding to the fact that wl isnt a fighting style…they may have a point…but lets see some vid of some actual full contact fighting from their students. Not just drills or prearranged self defense demos…actual fighting…no light contact. They should be able to show their stuff included kicking to the legs…take downs and at least a little ground work. If they cant produce that information…then maybe they should stop worrying about other styles being “a fighting style”.

Citong, what will you do when your students do research and find out that the “duan” ranking system is not traditional…what will they think…they may never believe in you no matter what other students think…

I dont have a problem with you citong…Im sure your a great guy…just trying to make my point as clearly as possible[/QUOTE]

I have nothing against you either and I’m sure your a great person as well, but I’ve heard all the explanations concerning wah lum. Matter of fact, I still have the handbooks. It doesnt change the fact that Chans wah lum mantis is not wl mantis… I guess your right, its the peoples fault. Our duan system, I have told everyone of my student that its not traditional, as well as, people who interview at my school. I’ve let everyone know that its used for modern business and international ranking. They make their own choice after that. BUT, I do not let them assume or hide what my school style is about, 100%. I will not repeat my wl days. I know how it made me feel before I quit, I will not treat others the same way.

I’ve just heard all there is about wl and there explanations on why and how the style is or was formed. We all know the all mantis styles are mixed styles, but the fact is, when I learned 7 star, I learned mantis, when I learn 6 harmony, I learned mantis, when I learned wl, I didnt learn mantis.

I’m not to offend you or anyone else on the boards. I’m glad you enjoy the art. I wish you the best of luck with your training, honestly. But, wl to me was a BIG waste of my time, as far as, learning mantis. Which is what I wanted in the first place. I know, my fault. i’ve moved on, but still feel the same about that style…

mantid1 · August 24, 2007, 4:21pm

Well, lets just hope people take the time to read the name before they join.

WL has never been promoted to me as 100% mantis…not even close.

I think some people may join wl because they have no other options for mantis in their area…then when they do get the chance to study a more pure form of mantis wl automatically becomes the bad guy…even after they gave the student an opportunity to learn.

I would be willing to bet that no instructor in wl would tell you that wl is 100% pure mantis…they would tell you the history and that tells it all.

Its a shame you feel like you wasted your time…I would like to thing you learned something. Much of the blame could go with your instructor.

Have a good day

Citong_Shifu · August 24, 2007, 6:10pm

[QUOTE=mantid1;789980]Well, lets just hope people take the time to read the name before they join.

WL has never been promoted to me as 100 mantis…not even close.

I think some people may join wl because they have no other options for mantis in their area…then when they do get the chance to study a more pure form of mantis wl automatically becomes the bad guy…even after they gave the student an opportunity to learn.

I would be willing to bet that no instructor in wl would tell you that wl is 100% pure mantis…they would tell you the history and that tells it all.

Its a shame you feel like you wasted your time…I would like to thing you learned something. Much of the blame could go with your instructor.

Have a good day[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on this post. But, when I started wl in the early 90’s it was being promoted as pure mantis, not with just my teacher but many of the wl sifu’s I was around throughout the years. Your right, wl is not promoted as actual wl mantis anymore. This is primarily due to people finding out the arts real roots. Yes, I was limited in my area at that time, but I could have went outside the area and trained in the art that I really wanted in the first place. And, reading the name doesn’t mean anything. Schools have been using names of this and that while teaching something completely different for years.

I understand your loyalty to wl, I used to have it too. Furthermore, I have no ill thoughts or feelings about those who train in wl, just a discouraging time in my life.

Yes, I learned alot of things while in wl, I also learned alot of bad habbits which hindered my growth within the cma. I was lucky not to have damaged my hips and knee’s like some of the others, but I’m sure thats not limited to just wl… I feel that my potential early on was ignored by the wl teachers and the $$$$$$$ was much more important… Which is not just limited to wl, but my experience within there style… It could have been my teacher, dont know. He really had a great reputation within the art, hmmm… Nontheless, I have no problem with what wl is teaching and wish the wl members well. Like I said, I trained in the early 90’s, things were a little different then or at least at the particular school I attended…

Good Luck.

Abica · August 24, 2007, 6:10pm

If I may chime in from the perspective of a kung fu newbie once again, when I was first researching kung fu schools in my area, I had a very hard time finding the schools I wanted (wing chun or jkd). Instead I found very few others teaching things like “So Rim Kung Fu” and of course “Wah Lum Kung Fu”. The main reason I went for Wah Lum (keeping in mind I’m still very new to the school, and am only on my third trial class tonight) was only because it was closer.

The website and most of the information I could find on Wah Lum simply billed it as “Kung Fu” for lack of a less generic and buzzwordy term I suppose. In fact, the only places I’ve seen it billed as “Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu” was on the one of 3 total wl clips I could find on youtube, showing some students at a competition or something, on here in very few places (most people on these boards seem to really know what they’re doing, so it’s obvious why the style isn’t expanded far beyond the wl acronym much) and in a very small font on the wl school sites, and even then it’s only on the front page (at least for my local school, I don’t recall what the temple’s site has).

For instance, here is the explanation of the “Kung Fu” taught at my local school (or I guess in general?): http://www.wahlumdenver.com/kungfu.php

A quick search over the page reveals no mention of the words “mantis”, “tam tui” or even “northern”.

This leads me to believe that the schools are geared more towards people who just want to learn SOME CMA period. It’s not that the expanded name is hidden anywhere, but from a marketing perspective, why would the schools slather it around? Those long hardcore sounding names just give the impression that the school is super traditional and that you’ll get caned if you can’t keep up with the class or if you’re not doing a form correctly (at least to me.. this aspect is the main reason I did research into the schools in the first place!)

The majority of prospective students are likely interested in learning for “self defense”, “fitness” or because the term kung fu is abound in movies where there is no mention made of the fact that there are really a vast amount of different styles. In fact, I wouldn’t doubt that most people joining kung fu simply aren’t aware that there are styles at all.

Thanks again to everyone who’s replied to this thread so far. Reading the replies are really interesting to me, regardless of the discussion content. Everyone’s opinion is getting taken into account, as I someday (many years from now) plan on being very serious about the cma I take.

I’m also hyped that so many of the oldbies here have taken the time to reply to this thread. I’ve gone through the history of these boards and have read many posts from years ago, so it’s exciting to see you guys are all still around.

@Yao Sing: I’ll be sure to tell him when I next see him!

@mantid1: I’m not sure what it is, but I like your whole attitude. I’ve come across a number of your posts and even though I don’t know you I felt fairly sad when I read http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697738&postcount=19 (a silly as I’m sure it sounds, however I was elated that you chose not to close up shop just yet, I hope this is still the case). I appreciate having your insight in this thread, though that’s not to say that I appreciate the other replies any less.

I’m glad that there are so many individual opinions on this subject, it’s great food for thought.

Citong_Shifu · August 24, 2007, 6:19pm

[QUOTE=Abica;790009]If I may chime in from the perspective of a kung fu newbie once again, when I was first researching kung fu schools in my area, I had a very hard time finding the schools I wanted (wing chun or jkd). Instead I found very few others teaching things like “So Rim Kung Fu” and of course “Wah Lum Kung Fu”. The main reason I went for Wah Lum (keeping in mind I’m still very new to the school, and am only on my third trial class tonight) was only because it was closer.

The website and most of the information I could find on Wah Lum simply billed it as “Kung Fu” for lack of a less generic and buzzwordy term I suppose. In fact, the only places I’ve seen it billed as “Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu” was on the one of 3 total wl clips I could find on youtube, showing some students at a competition or something, on here in very few places (most people on these boards seem to really know what they’re doing, so it’s obvious why the style isn’t expanded far beyond the wl acronym much) and in a very small font on the wl school sites, and even then it’s only on the front page (at least for my local school, I don’t recall what the temple’s site has).

For instance, here is the explanation of the “Kung Fu” taught at my local school (or I guess in general?): http://www.wahlumdenver.com/kungfu.php

A quick search over the page reveals no mention of the words “mantis”, “tam tui” or even “northern”.

This leads me to believe that the schools are geared more towards people who just want to learn SOME CMA period. It’s not that the expanded name is hidden anywhere, but from a marketing perspective, why would the schools slather it around? Those long hardcore sounding names just give the impression that the school is super traditional and that you’ll get caned if you can’t keep up with the class or if you’re not doing a form correctly (at least to me.. this aspect is the main reason I did research into the schools in the first place!)

The majority of prospective students are likely interested in learning for “self defense”, “fitness” or because the term kung fu is abound in movies where there is no mention made of the fact that there are really a vast amount of different styles. In fact, I wouldn’t doubt that most people joining kung fu simply aren’t aware that there are styles at all.

Thanks again to everyone who’s replied to this thread so far. Reading the replies are really interesting to me, regardless of the discussion content. Everyone’s opinion is getting taken into account, as I someday (many years from now) plan on being very serious about the cma I take.

I’m also hyped that so many of the oldbies here have taken the time to reply to this thread. I’ve gone through the history of these boards and have read many posts from years ago, so it’s exciting to see you guys are all still around.

@Yao Sing: I’ll be sure to tell him when I next see him!

@mantid1: I’m not sure what it is, but I like your whole attitude. I’ve come across a number of your posts and even though I don’t know you I felt fairly sad when I read http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=697738&postcount=19 (a silly as I’m sure it sounds, however I was elated that you chose not to close up shop just yet, I hope this is still the case). I appreciate having your insight in this thread, though that’s not to say that I appreciate the other replies any less.

I’m glad that there are so many individual opinions on this subject, it’s great food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Abica,
Sorry for the undesirable post that I have written pertaining to wah lum. This was just my experience within my old school. My purpose was not to turn anyone away from the wah lum art, I was just venting out loud. I’m glad you’r having a great time in wl, thats what its suppost to be all about. Sounds like your school is a great match for you…

Best of luck.

Abica · August 24, 2007, 6:31pm

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;790013]Abica,
Sorry for the undesirable post that I have written pertaining to wah lum. This was just my experience within my old school. My purpose was not to turn anyone away from the wah lum art, I was just venting out loud. I’m glad you’r having a great time in wl, thats what its suppost to be all about. Sounds like your school is a great match for you…

Best of luck.[/QUOTE]

Citong,

I understand. I actually really valued your comments rather than getting discouraged at all from them. As I’ve said, wl is going to be my base, and eventually I have intentions of expanding beyond a single style (I’ve always admired the JKD philosophy in this regard), so real information regarding what I’m actually learning now is still useful to me. When I go to branch out, I’d rather know that what I have learned isn’t the definitive mantis’ or something.

As a base, I’m just trying to get more out of the fitness aspects from wl, for instance balance and endurance etc. However, once styles matter to me all of these replies will start popping up in my head.

Your venting is much appreciated.

mantid1 · August 24, 2007, 8:03pm

Citong

I also was able to learn a little wl in the early 90’s…I find it funny that it was never promoted as a pure mantis system. I was never mislead in any way. In fact I was able to spend time with the grand master of the system…he never tried to promote it to me as a pure mantis style. He never tried to convince me that it was the best fighting style or never mentioned his fighting ability. What he did tell me (loosly translated) over and over is that if you train hard you stay healthy and have a better life because of the good health.

As you said your instructor may have been promoting it in the wrong way. But, you will have issues like this in any type of big organization.

My point is with this post is that even if I met somone from another race that I thought may have treated me bad I would try not to talk in a negative way about the entire race of people. I make my decisions on an individual basis. So, you may have come across a bad apple or so…but that doesnt mean they are al bad.

If we want to talk about money lets use the guy from denver as and example. I am sure he charges more than the average instructer would in home town America. But, can you imagine what kind of rent and over head he has to pay in his area? It has to be through the roof! If students want a nice facility, in a convienient location with enough space to train…well the students will have to pay for that luxury or the instructor could not afford to stay in business.

Abica

Thanks for you kind words. I am happy you can still think highly of me after reading my posts…I can come off as an a$$ from time to time:)

Yep, I decided to keep going for a while. Things have settled down a bit and I have gotten some dedicated students in the last year. My san shou class has picked up a little also…seems like some people still do want to fight. But it seems that there are still only about 10% of my student population who are interested in taking the bumps and bruises associated with the fighting…cant say I blame them.

Sounds like you know what you want and I do encourage you to look at different styles and training methods while you train in wl…there are a lot of great things out there. Just because you look at different options doesnt mean you have to give up what you have if you like it…cross training isnt such a bad thing as long as you know what you want, stay focused and out of politics.

Good luck

yu_shan · August 24, 2007, 8:37pm

I joined WL in 1990, had some good experiences and some bad. Id have to say the good totally outweighed the bad. But I rode it out for 11 years and moved on like Citong. I learned a lot while their that is for sure, but as I matured I had a longing to learn an area of the art that WL did not provide. And that is OK, I just moved on and now Im happy with my training. I have not forgotten my WL material it was good then and is good now. Sure there is a southern influence but there is Mantis technique all thru the WL forms.

Abica, it is really a no brainer, the school is close to you and you can afford it. The teacher is a good man so I know you will not be ripped off like some of us. WL will be great for starters, heck I enjoyed my 11 years and I do not think it was a waste of time. It got me started on a great journey and definitely opened doors for me. Good luck.

Citong_Shifu · August 24, 2007, 10:25pm

[QUOTE=mantid1;790052]Citong

I also was able to learn a little wl in the early 90’s…I find it funny that it was never promoted as a pure mantis system. I was never mislead in any way. In fact I was able to spend time with the grand master of the system…he never tried to promote it to me as a pure mantis style. He never tried to convince me that it was the best fighting style or never mentioned his fighting ability. What he did tell me (loosly translated) over and over is that if you train hard you stay healthy and have a better life because of the good health.

As you said your instructor may have been promoting it in the wrong way. But, you will have issues like this in any type of big organization.

My point is with this post is that even if I met somone from another race that I thought may have treated me bad I would try not to talk in a negative way about the entire race of people. I make my decisions on an individual basis. So, you may have come across a bad apple or so…but that doesnt mean they are al bad.

If we want to talk about money lets use the guy from denver as and example. I am sure he charges more than the average instructer would in home town America. But, can you imagine what kind of rent and over head he has to pay in his area? It has to be through the roof! If students want a nice facility, in a convienient location with enough space to train…well the students will have to pay for that luxury or the instructor could not afford to stay in business.

Abica

Thanks for you kind words. I am happy you can still think highly of me after reading my posts…I can come off as an a$$ from time to time:)

Yep, I decided to keep going for a while. Things have settled down a bit and I have gotten some dedicated students in the last year. My san shou class has picked up a little also…seems like some people still do want to fight. But it seems that there are still only about 10% of my student population who are interested in taking the bumps and bruises associated with the fighting…cant say I blame them.

Sounds like you know what you want and I do encourage you to look at different styles and training methods while you train in wl…there are a lot of great things out there. Just because you look at different options doesnt mean you have to give up what you have if you like it…cross training isnt such a bad thing as long as you know what you want, stay focused and out of politics.

Good luck[/QUOTE]

Ok, WL is graet!

mantid1 · August 24, 2007, 11:37pm

There are many great styles out there…and I am sure what citong teaches is also a great style.

Yao_Sing · August 25, 2007, 3:16am

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;789973]I’ve heard all the explanations concerning wah lum. Matter of fact, I still have the handbooks. It doesnt change the fact that Chans wah lum mantis is not wl mantis… [/QUOTE]

So where does your insight into WL mantis come from that you can state as fact that MC’s mantis is not the same? And also, can you put me in touch with that source?

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;789973]BUT, I do not let them assume or hide what my school style is about, 100.[/QUOTE]

I was at the Temple in the early 90’s and I never saw any evidence of hiding the origin of the style. This is one of those myths perpetuated by frustrated ex-students like the one about the training damaging knees. Just not true at all.

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;789973]but the fact is, when I learned 7 star, I learned mantis, when I learn 6 harmony, I learned mantis, when I learned wl, I didnt learn mantis.[/QUOTE]

If you define Mantis by the forms taught then I can see your point but WL has Mantis moves and principles spread across most of what’s taught. I’m really surprised it’s not more evident to you after studying other more mainstream branches of Mantis.

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;790008]I agree with you on this post. But, when I started wl in the early 90’s it was being promoted as pure mantis, not with just my teacher but many of the wl sifu’s I was around throughout the years.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I was there at the Temple around that time and I’ve always known it as a hybrid system although heavy on the Mantis for marketing purposes. I don’t recall anyone claiming it to be pure Mantis. The name, the handbook, it’s all there right out in the open.

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;790008]Yes, I learned alot of things while in wl, I also learned alot of bad habbits which hindered my growth within the cma. I was lucky not to have damaged my hips and knee’s like some of the others, but I’m sure thats not limited to just wl… [/QUOTE]

Everyone likes to throw these claims around yet when pressed nobody can provide evidence that it’s true. I have a bad right knee but I slammed that in 2 different motorcycle accidents long before training in WL. I did make it worse by showing off doing a move in 36 Hands.

DW was a power lifter in High School and was squatting some serious weight considering his size. Think that had an affect on his knees or was it the WL training?

There are others but I don’t want to publicly state where their knee problems may have come from.

How many guys in a physically active sport end up with joint problems when they reach their 40s?

You know there are guys with 15+ years in WL without knee and hip problems?

Sorry, I just haven’t seen any of these claims turn out to be true. Most of the time they’re just repeating what they’ve heard. Sorry, this is something of a pet peeve of mine.

[QUOTE=Citong Shifu;790008]It could have been my teacher, dont know. He really had a great reputation within the art, hmmm… Nontheless, I have no problem with what wl is teaching and wish the wl members well. Like I said, I trained in the early 90’s, things were a little different then or at least at the particular school I attended…[/QUOTE]

SC was your teacher based on what I recall of your past posts. All in all the more I see, and learn, of the more mainstream NPM the more I see of it in WL. But if you’re looking for purity of lineage then you might want to look somewhere else.

Citong_Shifu · August 27, 2007, 2:04pm

[QUOTE=Yao Sing;790138]So where does your insight into WL mantis come from that you can state as fact that MC’s mantis is not the same? And also, can you put me in touch with that source?