I agree with you. My problem with Wing Chun, and its not like I really have a problem with it and go around harboring some anomosity, just that I know a lot of WC guys, is, like in chess, one wasted move will cost you the game.
I believe Fuk Sau and Tan Sau are strategically wasteful because they do not accomplish enough. The do accomplish something, but not enough. Point being, you are trying to get a position that is not nessesary an advantage if you waste your movment just to get that position.
I think Fuk Sau should be attacking the attack, slipping outside, then continuing the attack with a focus on the lowered elbow to maintain control. Tan sau attacking the attack, slipping inside and then continuing the ttack. Maybe at a higher level it is this way.
Anyway, these are just things I think about, and like someone said above, its not Wing Chun, its that there is a lot of bad Wing Chun out there, as in many styles. So, I guess I shouldn’t say Wing Chun can be wasteful, just that some WC practitioners are wasteful.
Dear Evolution fist_ some of your points are well taken- others involve some misunderstanding of wing chun. I dont blame you for that. I was accused on another thread by non wing chunners of “dissing” some wing chun teachers- not true.Non wing chunners by “watching” some wing chun dont often understand where the real art is. But, as taichi has been for a while wing chun has become too popular too fast and lots of folks dont understand the art deeply, dont devote themselves to sustained
instruction and development and dont understand the meaning of the motions. You mention fok sao and tan sao. They are NOT
'techniques"- they are families of highly refined motions. Just as without proper polishing and learning of swordsmanship- a sword is justa piece of metal- to some extent that holds for the forging,
polishing and understanding the balance and motions of tan sao and fok sao. With the right wing chun timing one quick move of fok or tan or bong can simultaneisly defend and attack- not two moves.
Nothing wasted.
EF, I also think that if you are wasting movement, you are not doing WC! Really, at higher levels WC should flow, like you always hear, you should stick to your opponent.
Although Yuanfen has a better understanding of tansao, fuksao, I do understand that thier usesfulness is not glaringly obvious, especially if you look at the form. Just looking doesnt get you anywhere. Studying it will reveal the secrets!
I look at it this way. I felt the same way you did about fuk sao for a time, I couldnt understand its use at all. I have since then seen some pretty good uses of it, no energy or motion wasted. Wing Chun was designed ot be direct, to the point, no energy wasted. If you see something that is goin against that idea, I would say one of two things, respectfully of course, you are either not seeing it right, or you are not understanding it right.
Like I said, WC is complex, there are a lot of things that many people dont understand, like soft power, or sticking to your opponent, or sensitivity. Even in my class, with people who have been studying for a while, I see that they hgave a hard time uderstanding some of the concepts. Some of this is just do to lazy ness. some of it is due to misunderstanding or stubborn refusal to understand.
Originally posted by EvolutionFist
[B]
I think Fuk Sau should be attacking the attack, slipping outside, then continuing the attack with a focus on the lowered elbow to maintain control. Tan sau attacking the attack, slipping inside and then continuing the ttack. Maybe at a higher level it is this way.
Anyway, these are just things I think about, and like someone said above, its not Wing Chun, its that there is a lot of bad Wing Chun out there, as in many styles. So, I guess I shouldn’t say Wing Chun can be wasteful, just that some WC practitioners are wasteful. [/B]
I agree there’s alot of garbage out there and I’m nowhere near a high level yet but the way we apply our tan sau is the way you describe attacking the attack moving inside. I haven’t worked with the fook sau yet. I never percived you as having a that much of an issue with Wing Chun from earlier posts jsut with the way alot of it is taught. But I don’t want to change the subject of you thread. I’m not anywhere near the Biu Jee level yet but would be interested in hearing how others train thiers.
I have trained WC for 5 years and I haven’t reached Biu Jee level yet but according to my SiSuk the Biu Jee form contains the “deadly” techniques of WC. It is called to “draw ones energy through the fingers” and are to be used on soft areas like throut, eyes etc. There are also techniques like the spade hand, short elbows etc. in the Biu Jee form.
Beacuse of the nature of these techniques you don’t often see
them in training, little margin of error…
If you are interested in extensive information post the question on the WC forum and ask e.g. Sihing73 to answer.
Nichiren, Is this normal in your training for a student to train for 5 years and still not start the third form. I only ask because i started to learn this last night and i have only been training for two years. I do train more than a lot of my fellow students but i would like to know how long everyone took to learn the third form. Not just the time in months/years but how often and how long you were training.
Hey Ish, just to throw in my 2 cents worth, my class doesnt learn the third form for atleast 2 years, but probably more like 3. We have to have an strong foundation in one level before we go on to the next. For example, we do stance and rooting for a long time before we are ready for Chum kui.
YuenFen, you make a good point. The more popular an art becomes, the more people it draws, this includes the short-timers, the in and outers, who take a small piece then move on and claim Wing Chun and pollute.
I guess in a sense I am one of those guys. I learned Wing Chun for about 3 and a half or 4 years while studying Hung Gar, but I got an opportunity to learn S. MAntis from a good teacher who taught in a manner that I liked so I began to train with both sifus. Politics got involved, and then I had the opportunity of a lifetime to train with my current sifu. I will say that I studied Wing Chun, and it taught me a lot, the sticking and sensitivity is priceless.
I can’t claim to know the system, just what I took away. One thing I do see now that I’m learning internal when I play with Wing Chun is this: a desire to follow the hand, maybe sticking a bit too much. When somone runs outside, they tend to try and cling. I’m learning to be like a mouse trap now. When someone runs outside I let the strike fly on that moment of disconect – I won’t chase it anymore. Maybe I would have gotten to the same place if I stayed with Wing Chun. Who knows.
Its like that saying I guess, we are all trecking to the top of the mountain, we just take different paths. I do know this, my sifu is up there, and sometimes he makes it seem so far away – man, he is too good. Not normal (sorry, had class last night and a lot is on my mind).
EF, I know that so far in my experience, all of the people I have come across who have real skill in WC, have been studying for a minimum of 8-9 years, if not more. I am not sure if this is standard with other arts or not, but this has been what I have experienced so far in WC.
8 or 9 years? Would you say that is the same, less than, or more than the time it takes to get “real skill” in other styles?
I tell you, I am seriously considering studying Wing Chun, starting my training in Asia in May, and I have learnt a lot about it through ‘eavesdropping’ on Yuanfen and Red etc. defending against Evolution Fist!
I hope no one takes my posts as attacks, simply critical discussions on a MA board.
I think one should become a good fighter after 2 or 3 years. After that, it is just the continuation of the martial lifestyle, always improving, adding and yet refining.
I was always under the impression that Wing Chun was actually created to be taught quickly, TO GET REVENGE FOR THE TEMPLE ( ). There is no denying that after 8 or 9 years you better be good. After 8 or 9 years I should be able to perform open heart surgery if I practiced that the way I train. I guess my question is, do you want to take Wing Chun to the grave, or move on, maybe see what is behing door number two, check out internal?
scotty1- I am not sure if it is like this in other arts, and to answer EFs view on combat, I think you become an effective fighter long before that 8 years is up, it is just that the real quality skills, the real comprehension of the art itself doesnt come for sometime. Does this make sense?
EF, I personally will probably study WC in earnest of the rest of my life, I really like it a lot, and do not feel I need to go elswhere to find what I need. It is both external and internal, as are most chinese ma. I will at soem point probably study a more internal art, but not for some time, and I will most liekely never train for combat outside of WC.
Oh yes and to answer your question EF on speed of training, well, you can train a person teh entire WC system in a month, or there abouts. This may give them some fighting a ability, like studying boxing for a month, but you wont be able to master the system in that time by any means.
Also, again! EF dont worry about offending me, we haved discussed WC before and you have since shown me that you are curious and are interested in learning, not trying to troll, I appreciate the conversation, well thought out.
I agree with everything you said. You can get the flavor of the sytem and bang around after a short while. With time, experience, its only natural to become more refined, honed.
I have studied several martial arts and one of the reasons I stick with WC is that I can take it to the grave with me. I just don’t see myself practicing the karate, western boxing or Thai boxing I’ve studied in the past when I’m an old guy. Plus the depth of WC fascinates me and I like the self teaching aspect to it as well. The great paradox of WC is that it’s so simple and yet it isn’t.
The beauty of styles like Wing Chun and Hung-Ga, and other arts is that it can be taught at many levels. At the base level, you can bang around, and be pretty nasty. At higher levels, it becomes more and more refined, and the doors of possibilities open up. Hung-Ga for one, becomes VAST, when this happens. This is why, although I have studied other arts, and will continue to do so, I love Hung-Ga. iThe learning just never stops. Each concept changes the entire art.
Well said Ten Tigers. I like to look at it as a progression. Sort o flike starting out playing tic tac toe, a simple game, takes a few tries to get it right but once you have it you can play it well. Then checkers, more complicated, alot of variation, and less restrictive. From there you move on to chess, very dynamic, still simple and straight forward but it takes a lifetime to master.
That is why I will stick with WC, I believe that to study another art woulkd only be to take away from my learning in WC.
I suppose it could also compared to Go. You can play it at a simple child’s level, but the strategies become more complex than chess at higher levels. I play it with my daughter, then her mom comes and wipes the floor with me. Her Gung-Fu is too good for me!
I wish I could train WC full time, e.g. 8 hours a day, but I have to work. I’m happy if I can manage 8 hours of quality training a week.
The best WC practitioners I have come across are the ones that have been Pashtun?(lives in the kwoon) students at WT. They train full time and are wicked good. Some of the ones I know have been pashtun for over 3 years. Thats ~40h523=6240h of training over 3 years! :eek:
). There is no denying that after 8 or 9 years you better be good. After 8 or 9 years I should be able to perform open heart surgery if I practiced that the way I train. I guess my question is, do you want to take Wing Chun to the grave, or move on, maybe see what is behing door number two, check out internal?