i was hoping some of you kung fu veterans could share some experiences. i hate to use the word “discrimination” but i know that in time past 60’s, 70’s, maybe even 80’s it was quite difficult for non-chinese to train in kung fu. i am glad for my sake that a good portion of that has changed in recent times. anyways i just though this would be an interesting topic.
I’m not a veteran, am Chinese, and want to post something of an apologist’s remark.
The Chinese were subject to quite a bit of discrimination in their history in the USA. There was even specific legislation to prevent the migration of Chinese women to the US to join their husbands working on the railroad, etc. They had to keep themseleves to themselves. Why would they want to teach the “gweilos” ways to beat themselves up?
I guess that insular attitude just continued until society became more inclusive of non-white minorities.
In many places, this difficulty still exists today.
If you are training with a Cantonese teacher and you hear Gwailo, Hak Gwai, See Yao Gai, etc… in conversations where the teacher is talking to a close Chinese student, and you are not Chinese, you MAY not be getting as much as you think. Sometimes those phrases are simply racist ways of referring to people…and other times they show a preference.
I know of many current teachers that will teach non-Chinese but not teach exactly the right way. They will then have their other students that get corrections…and instructions not to show things to “Certain” students.
Part of this is racism and part of it is the student vs. disciple concept that goes way back…and separating the two is not easy.
Interesting comments.
my sifu was trained by a Malaysian in the 70/80’s in puerto rico. all depends on the teacher and how racist they are. you can say racism had nothing to do with passing on the art, but it does. where white, we tried destroying their people for a 1/200 hundred or so years, they dont like us, why should they train us. if they dont want to pass on an art to a dedicated student that respect the master fully and is loyal to them, let them be arrogent. if they dont want to learn the language of the current country their in because they’re the master, that arrogance will probably pass on to his close students of the same race.
It still goes on today. Rank is held back.
Well I must say that I’m disappointed that such attitudes still exist, re: keeping back the “secrets” because of race, or any other reason.
If the student shows dedication to the art then why keep anything back from someone who is a walking ambassador for your school?
The art needs to be transmitted to students who have a love for it.
Because my teacher spoke no English, I learned to speak Cantonese. Later, I married a Shanghaiese and learned to speak Mandarin and some Shanghai dialect. As absurd as this sounds, because I spoke Chinese, and learned to read and write it, and was adopted (Baai Si) by my sifu, I got treated like Chinese by the old sifu club. The result was like being in the X-Files, exposed to a secret world where the old boys know the real deal and hand out the crap to those who don’t know any better. I spent maybe 15 years in that world, and it left a VERY BITTER taste in my mouth.
Conversations with some famous sifu often went…
ME: “that footwork is wrong, shouldn’t you correct it?”
FT1: “oh, I know that, you know that, the dumb Bahk Gwai don’t so what does it matter?”
NO, I am dead serious
Originally posted by lkfmdc
I spent maybe 15 years in that world, and it left a VERY BITTER taste in my mouth.
I’ve been left with BITTER TASTES in my mouth from dating a chinesre girl on and off for 2 years, lets jsut say I dont liek that taste and avoid them now for the msot part.
Originally posted by lkfmdc
Because my teacher spoke no English, I learned to speak Cantonese. Later, I married a Shanghaiese and learned to speak Mandarin and some Shanghai dialect. As absurd as this sounds, because I spoke Chinese, and learned to read and write it, and was adopted (Baai Si) by my sifu, I got treated like Chinese by the old sifu club. The result was like being in the X-Files, exposed to a secret world where the old boys know the real deal and hand out the crap to those who don’t know any better. I spent maybe 15 years in that world, and it left a VERY BITTER taste in my mouth.
Before you learned to speak Cantonese, do you think your teacher talked this way about you?
hmmmm i think holding back secrets is fair enough. i don’t think i’d mind training under someone even if i would never be shown the closed door techniques. as long as they taught me a good lesson. teaching improper footwork, or any other basics is wrong though. holding back is one thing. but deception is another.
Being 3rd gen Chinese American I feel I should say something but don’t know how to articulate it.
I believe every story here. Especially Ross’ since I have heard that type of thing myself. That said, is it due to racial discrimination? Sort of.
In my experience, the Chinese are the most discriminitory culture on earth. (Of course I have very little true interaction with other cultures that it’s hard to compare) American culture, for all it’s faults, is one of the most accepting.
My wife is Teochew (Chiu Chao) and the doors the magic teochew phrase opens all through south east asia is amazing to me. I’m talking 50% discounts, special reserved items, access, etc. At the other end of the spectrum, me looking chinese but speaking very little chinese, I get the reverse.
I still remember going into a watch shop in Malaysia and asking for a price. I’m speaking chinese but with my obvious US accent. We bargain down a bit and I get a price but it’s still too high for me. My wife goes into the same shop imediately after and her STARTING price is below the lowest I was able to bargain. She bought the watch for about $100 lower then I could have.
One more story. When I first met my si-gung Lum Jo I worked out for 2 hours before he came out and trained me. A si-hing of mine also went to visit. He hung around for ~20 minutes and never got to meet him. Only the other students. He is more fluent in chinese then I. Also, Lum Jo has close relationships with a few non-chinese who have made the effort.
My point? Discrimination exists. Is it always the result of race? Ross’s story is telling. Here he is a non-chinese being taken inside. If FT1 saw chinese student with a bad horse, would he have said, “don’t bother, he’s just a stupid chinaman.”
My experince shows its more a matter of you are either with me or against me. If you can show some way of being “with me” then I’ll treat you better. There’s always the teacher pet. Not everyone is treated equally. It’s just that Chinese seem to treat to outsider much worse.
My own teacher’s habit was a little different. He could care less if you were Chinese or not but if you couldn’t follow or keep up with him, he’d screw you as quick as a ***** teenager on prom night
When I met him, he started to show me stuff, and I guess I picked it up quickly, I had already done 7 or so years of Hung Ga, Shuai Jiao, Dragon and Northern Shaolin. I"d even done some contemporary wushu Nan Quan. The things he showed me got progressively better, but I was never shown crap
Others, my teacher would start off, and after a few movements he’d realize that they had no stance, held their hands poorly, couldn’t remember sequences, etc etc… it would go down hill from there 
Honestly, he’d screw Chinese as easily as he screwed Gwai Loh, often with more contempt because “how dare they” not get it! ON two separate occassions I was called to meet him at well known Chinatown schools. I’d show up thinking I was going to work out with some great master, or learn some new cool thing. Instead, I was to take over teaching someone who my teacher had deemed not even worthy of his time.
Honest to g’d, I showed up once and my sifu was teaching this Chinese guy, my teacher spoke no English, so obviously he was teaching in Cantonese. He told me “you know this set, you teach him this” and my teacher went to eat something. I didn’t think, I just continued to teach in Cantonese. The world was really strange back then, I’d spend days maybe and not speak English.
Anyway, after about 30 minutes, the student finally gets enough courage up to ask me if I speak English! He’s ABC and doesn’t speak a word of Chinese. He had no clue what my teacher was saying, and no clue what I was saying!!!
This is an interesting thread. I would like to ask a related question though. Are the “discriminatory” practices (in your experiences that is) similar for non-Chinese, Asian students and non-Chinese, non-Asian students? What about between Caucasians and African/African-Americans? I’ve had the fortune of never having experienced this (or at least, not to my knowledge) and would be curious to know this.
sadly i’d wager that there may be many sifu who taught too openly and now regret it. imagine opening a m.a. magazine only to see one of your former student peddling your art on book or video, without having heard so much as a thank you. or to have a student break away and claim to teach your system and charge 4 times as much as you kindly taught them for.
falcor - when i was younger i took tkd. and my instructor (from hong kong) often found himself “out of the loop” from the korean instructors who had somewhat of an old boys club.
Grapefruit can be bitter.
store brand sparkling grapefruit is refreshing
Originally posted by lkfmdc
Anyway, after about 30 minutes, the student finally gets enough courage up to ask me if I speak English! He’s ABC and doesn’t speak a word of Chinese. He had no clue what my teacher was saying, and no clue what I was saying!!!
LOL. That could have been me [:)]
Your story matches my experience.
OT: Ross, would you answer my question on the history thread about WFH?
just in case people don’t know ABC = American-Borned Chinese.