Hello lkfmdc,
I have trained in Wing Chun, JKD concepts, and some Fukien White Crane. I was checking out your San Da web site, and am interested in training in it.
You come from a traditional CMA background, but now seem to be focused much more on teaching San Da. What was it that shifted your focus from teaching traditional CMA to San Da?
Also, what, if any, are some of the differences between training in San Da versus training in San Shou, MMA, or JKD concepts?
For me “san da” is a philosophy and a training method. I believe what I am doing now is teaching CTS material but in a way that people who live normal, modern lives, can acquire skill in it. IE if I train them like guys who studied 10 hours a day 7 days a week did, when they are doing 2 t0 3 hour classes a week, obviously nothing would be achieved. I also have the “san da” mentality, in that I am interested in what works, not in lineage, tradition, etc… We cross train in BJJ, wrestling, etc to be better.
San Shou is just an amateur version of San Da, ie no knees, chest guards, etc, but no real difference
I think what we do is MMA basicly
JKD is tied into Bruce Lee thoughts, including his own biases
That makes sense lkfmdc.
One thing that I’ve noticed in MMA bouts is that you rarely see anyone using the straight arm, powerful swing strikes that you find in styles like Lama, Tibetan White Crane, and Choy Lay Fut. Since these strikes are also blocks, and are very powerful, and difficult to defend against, why are they not used more in fighting styles like MMA or San Da?
long hooks (so choih) and over hands (kahp choih) are used quite frequently in MMA… hammer fists (Pek Choih) are used a lot on the ground (look at Jit Fu Choih again and start thinking MMA… ok, I’m squating down and hammering downward, why?)… Jyuhn Bin (spin back fist) shows up from time to time…
Right, but aren’t those long hooks and over hand strikes that are used in MMA more resembling a boxer’s hook and over head strike than the true, straight arm, swinging strikes that you find in arts like Lama and Choy Lay Fut? I mean, I know the basic idea is the same, but aren’t they executed very differently?
For example, the shovel hook that we use in JKD has some differences from a traditional western boxing hook, but it is closer to a western boxing hook than to a Choy Lay Fut straight arm swinging strike.
When you’re training the traditional strikes of this kind, as you know, it’s all about relaxing the arm, and generating all your power from the waist. It’s like your arm is a rope, and your fist is a weight on the end of the rope. And your waist provides all the torque. Unless I’m observing wrong, which is certainly possible, this doesn’t seem to be the same way that these kinds of strikes are executed in MMA.
By the way, I’m not trying to be argumentative or critical. I’m sincerely trying to understand the differences. I respect your knowledge a great deal.
You may not remember, but I trained with you briefly back in the early 90s. It was a very rough time in my life though. I was in a bad marriage, was going through a career change, had a bad knee, and was commuting 2 hours each way from Northern Westchester to try and hook up with you in a chinatown park. I only ended up doing a few training sessions with you, and all of the other stuff that was going on ended up pulling me away. Shortly after all of that, I ended up leaving the area.
In any case, I'm sorry that I didn't get to train with you more. The few training sessions that I had certainly stayed with me, and I still practice some of the punching drills, etc. that I learned from you.
If I relocate back down that way in the future, which is a possibility, I would love to check out a San Da class.
Sorry, didn’t realize that we knew eachother. But other than that, I didn’t take anythign bad from your questions…
I think if you do So and Kahp correctly, it will be like the “boxing punch”… we were never taught to lock out joints for example… but it goes back to what I said before, if you just do forms in the air, you can develop “bad habits”… you need to hit things, put on gloves and hit people, train “alive” and it will come together. I don’t do “thai boxing” … people who have done some Muay Thai and then train with me see that immediately… my school has a whole little cliche of “converted” TCMA guys, tai chi, bagua, long fist, hung ga, praying mantis, wing chun, etc guys who want to be able to fight with CMA…
Yeah, your school sounds really awesome. Just what I would want to get into at this point. Like I said, if I do end up relocating back that way, I’ll certainly check it out.
And you’re right about doing those swinging punches only in the air developing bad habits. When you start to smack the $hit out of things with those swinging strikes, it gives them a whole new dimension.
BTW, for what it’s worth, I suspect that the Bak Fu Pai folks that are giving you guys all of this grief on the forum have no idea who you Lama guys really are. They probably think that you guys are just Internet tough guys like them.
But I know first hand even from the little time that I spent hanging with you in NYC Chinatown that you guys are real “Old School”. I remember going with you for Yum Cha after working out in the park to some place on Mott Street called TY Nyk, or something like that. And sometimes these older Chinese guys would come in who were Sifus in one style or another, and they always showed you much respect, as they knew that you were one of Chan’s top students. And I remember the stories told by others of you kicking the cr@p out of a group of Chinese guys from another school down there who jumped you one time.
What little that I’ve seen of Bak Fu Pai didn’t strike me as very impressive (for example, the recent article about Bak Fu Pai in IKF), and the whole lineage of the system is very questionable, to say the least. Chan’s Lama Pai lineage is unquestionable, and completely verifiable. I think that those guys should watch what the fu@k they’re saying. Cause if this thing ever jumps off for real, I would say that they’re in for one helluva smackdown!!!
Just the 2 cents of a young guy experimenting:
I teach a “Kung Fu Basics” class at my university’s rec center. Since I won’t be in this position for more than a couple years, I want to focus on things that will benefit students right now or soon. Forms don’t really play a role, other than as a source of techniques, combos, and concepts for my programs.
I get two 90 minute classes a week to teach. I’ll be ****ed if I’m going to waste the students’ time sitting in horse stance and practicing forms the entire time. I’m also not going to show beginners exaggerated techniques from forms and ask them to “unlock” their meaning. Not to say forms are useless or that I wouldn’t use them in teaching more advanced students, but they aren’t within the scope of the class. So what should we work on? For one thing, active footwork rather than static poses. For another, hitting pads. For another, fighting drills and basic concepts. Those who are interested have the option to spar after a quarter or two with me.
I find, when we have such little time, we have to break the skills down into digestible chunks in order to get anywhere. That means a logical program based on skills that we develop before moving on to new ones. I won’t teach a brand new student to grab someone’s punch out of the air if that person can’t react quickly enough to parry the punch in the first place. Is this San Shou? In the sense that we drill “loose techniques,” I suppose it is, but not really. It’s the combat of TCMA presented in a way a beginner can understand and conceivably learn at 3 hours a week.
I also practice San Shou as a style and training system. We have elbows, though we don’t spar with them much for safety reasons. In the sense that San Shou is free sparring, I think it’s an essential part of learning the combat skills. In the grand scheme, it’s just one facet, but it’s a pretty big one. 
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;732789]For me “san da” is a philosophy and a training method. I believe what I am doing now is teaching CTS material but in a way that people who live normal, modern lives, can acquire skill in it. IE if I train them like guys who studied 10 hours a day 7 days a week did, when they are doing 2 t0 3 hour classes a week, obviously nothing would be achieved. I also have the “san da” mentality, in that I am interested in what works, not in lineage, tradition, etc… We cross train in BJJ, wrestling, etc to be better.
[/QUOTE]
Wow! Well Said! 
Just a note… you can still use gwa choys, sow choys and cup choys (CLF strikes) in san shou. As long as you use it with correct intend, your strikes will not end up looking like basic brawling (which is the first thing people ask when they look at CLF guys practicing san shou). Obviously only difference is that you have gloves and can only use fists.
We also still use CLF forms and techniques in San shou class, but just take them as drills from the forms. Which means, you have time to practice the drills instead of focussing in the forms.
I think San shou is perfect for those who want to learn traditional MA without the ‘traditions’. And its a good ‘sport’ too.
[QUOTE=FlyingCrane;733065]
BTW, for what it’s worth, I suspect that the Bak Fu Pai folks that are giving you guys all of this grief on the forum have no idea who you Lama guys really are. They probably think that you guys are just Internet tough guys like them. [/QUOTE]
As a third party bystander to the entire BFP vs. Lama Pai topic, all I can say is … oy vey… I cannot believe that people always take sides without looking at both sides. But therein lies politics and favoritism. If I wanted something from BFP or from Lama Pai should I take a side so I can get something? Such political favoritism would seem to lie at the very heart of human idiocy. But such is the way of the humanity it would seem.
[QUOTE=FlyingCrane;733065]
BTW, for what it’s worth, I suspect that the Bak Fu Pai folks that are giving you guys all of this grief on the forum have no idea who you Lama guys really are.
[/QUOTE]
The Bak Fu Pai, aka Bad Bak Mei (BBM) guys are just clowns desperate to look tough. They talk tough as long as they think they are far away and because they don’t even have a school you can walk into. Doo Wai is scared sh-tless of me. But since I haven’t called him recenlty he’s now acting tough again. I guarantee if I call again, he’ll shut up for a few days then try and act tough again on his little forum
Just spoke to my Shaolin teacher whos back here for a visit from Beijing. He told me that the San Da schools in China are now moving towards using open hand gloves. Its nothing official yet, but just something he noticed. Also mentioned about San Da moving to more free fighting, but I think he might have meant MMA. Regardless, it seems that things are changing, even in China, which just confirms what Mr Ross has always said (or least i think it was him), that san da does not limit you to the sport rules (something like that).
[QUOTE=Eddie;733126]
which just confirms what Mr Ross has always said (or least i think it was him), that san da does not limit you to the sport rules (something like that).[/QUOTE]
People confuse “sport” (shiai) with “alive training” (Randori). The critical aspect of arts that are functional is the “alive training” (randori). Of course, most also have some aspect of “sport” but more specifically competition (randori). I think in today’s age, most functional systems actually end up doing more than one competition format. For example, we do san da, we also do MMA, we also do muay Thai. Those are our main three though we’ve done boxing and submission grappling also a little bit. Most BJJ schools have both sport BJJ and MMA. A lot of MMA programs do both Muay Thai and MMA.
“Sport” is the wrong term in most cases, and especially when people want to make it sound like “sport” = nonfunctional technique
sorry for that. I can see how my wording may have been confusing. I think you know what I was getting at.
Eddie, NOTHING to be “sorry” about my friend, nothing wrong with your post, I was just clarifying and being more specific