Many people believe that the “principle base” traing is superior than the “technique base” training. If you train one “abstract principle”, you can apply it onto many different “concrete techniques”. I have some problem by using this approach. Both hook punch and roundhouse kick may use the same “principle” - spin your limb, but I find out that my hook punch training won’t help my roundhouse kick training.
I try to find an example that’s pure “principle base” training. Can someone suggest such clip here?
Will you consider the following 2 men drill as “principle base” training or “technique base” training?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076847]Many people believe that the “principle base” traing is superior than the “technique base” training. If you train one “abstract principle”, you can apply it onto many different “concrete techniques”. I have some problem by using this approach. Both hook punch and roundhouse kick may use the same “principle” - spin your limb, but I find out that my hook punch training won’t help my roundhouse kick training.[/QUOTE]
My understanding of principle based training is different from what you described above. For example, in Wing Chun we face the opponent as we attack. That is a guiding principle, the same as not dealing with force using force, but to accept it and/or absorb it. Of course, those principles are not good if we do not have techniques that apply to those situations, and these techniques have to be drilled thousands of times to make them potent.
At the moment I am not able to see that clip on my computer.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076847]Many people believe that the “principle base” traing is superior than the “technique base” training. If you train one “abstract principle”, you can apply it onto many different “concrete techniques”. I have some problem by using this approach. Both hook punch and roundhouse kick may use the same “principle” - spin your limb, but I find out that my hook punch training won’t help my roundhouse kick training.
I try to find an example that’s pure “principle base” training. Can someone suggest such clip here?
Will you consider the following 2 men drill as “principle base” training or “technique base” training?
John,
Good topic for discussion!
I think you always need a mix of the two. The principle is the paradigm upon which the techniques are built. The problem comes when one limits them-self to following the techniques blindly. Within any technique there must be a means of deviating from the course if things do not go as planned. How one deviates is guided by the underlying principle.
I don’t think it’s possible to train principles without techniques…you couldn’t do anything without violating the rule, but I guess you can shift what you emphasize.
The closest I’ve ever come to training principles without techniques was as a little kid. My dad (who was self-taught) used to teach/practice/play/fight with me a few nights a week.
He taught me ‘use your opponent’s momentum against him.’ He cared more about the principle than the technique, it just had to work. But even without names for most of them, there were still certain moves which became part of my repertoire (which were part of his). (And even then there were still a half-dozen or so wrestling holds with ‘real’ names.)
Know the general from the particular, and know the particular from the general…it’s a two-way road.
My teacher has a principles over technique emphasis in his eagle claw chin na instruction(in all of it really). We only learn about 50 of the 108 specific locking techniques. From there we’re expected to have the tools to come up with the rest (and more). But yeah, there’s no way to have zero techniques I think.
The purpose of training techniques is to make you gradually understand the principles. The principles are formless and can’t quite be trained specifically, just from going free style.
So you train technique and aim towards understanding the principles during those techniques, then you gradually move from form to formlessness.
You can talk about the principles in theory and thats a good thing to do while training. But it would be very difficult to train them specifically since understanding them comes from definate technique.
i cant tell coz they are only doing one thing… based just on this i would have to say technique based… since they are simply taking turns trying a certain technique on eachother as opposed to taking a principle and rolling with it… but whos to say some principle wasnt the inspiration for the cat that created the technique…
ShaolinDan,
Master Michael Lamonica of Hakko Denshin Ryu taught the same way. One was expected to learn the waza method of tekagami (hand mirror), then develop various henka (variations) based upon the principle found in the waza. Though only a few waza were required for shodan, it was required of the student to develop numerous henka to demonstrate for the shodan test.
Oh. Well, I don’t think my Shifu is actually going to make anyone show him the other 58 specific techniques(hope not!)…he’ll just want us to show that we can improvise on the fly.
How can pure “principle base” training exist? The moment that you execute certain principles on your opponent, your move has defined as concrete technique. When you train solo, nothing is defined but I won’t call any solo train as “principle base” training.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1076879]Can someone share some clip about “principle base” training?[/QUOTE]
That might end up being a video of just the teacher lecturing the student
Ok, principle based could be something like, “when sparring a big guy, use hit and run tactics”. Then the video would be just free sparring with whatever techniques the person wanted, but he would need to maneuver and hit and run.
I was thinking something like try to get one’s opponent off the mat or on the ground…start in clinch, no leg techniques or strikes, just push, pull, twist, etc. But maybe it would only be principle based with someone who was new to it…eventually a person develops techniques…really everything in martial arts (everything) plays off everything else, it’s all inter-dependent.
We may talk about different level of “principle” here.
If you lose, run like hell (high level principle).
push your opponent’s head down, and sweep his feet off, he will fall (middle level principle).
A punch on the face hurt (low level principle).
Does “principle base” training = free sparring? I’m all for free sparring, but can a boxer suddently develop his “hip throw” by using the free sparring format?
IMO, the free sparring is to “test” your skill and not to “develop” your skill.
Maybe it’s not what you do on the outside that counts, when it comes to principles. Principles let you develop your techniques, there’s no way to demonstrate or use principles without techniques. I think it’s maybe visible in the learning process more than any particular practice. But really I just think it’s a kind of moot point…
an example would be, “jow sao” -running hand.
Learn a few techniques to understand the principle;
your opponent paks your straight punch, run to hook punch.
your opponent blocks your hook punch, run to uppercut.
your opponent blocks your uppercut, roll over to gwa choy.
then “run” with it. pun intended.
do you have to learn a hundred more technique variations to be able to get the idea?
no. now you are collecting. wasted time and effort.
sure, you need to learn several variations to understand the most efficient methods of movement, but after that, it should be self-explanatory.
(if it isn’t…take up bowling…)
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1076869]The purpose of training techniques is to make you gradually understand the principles. The principles are formless and can’t quite be trained specifically, just from going free style.
So you train technique and aim towards understanding the principles during those techniques, then you gradually move from form to formlessness.
You can talk about the principles in theory and thats a good thing to do while training. But it would be very difficult to train them specifically since understanding them comes from definate technique.[/QUOTE]
My thinking runs like RenDa’s.
You start with techniques, and from there you discover the principles. Yourself. Maybe even your own interpretation…
Once you get that, it unleashes all sorts of good stuff, formlessness is one word. Flexibility, innovation, adaptability, sensitivity…those also come to mind.
People are always more interested in principles because they see it is higher knowledge. One reason why is because you have to figure them out yourself. With guidance, of course.
I think that Principle and Technique are two sides of the same coin (sorta kinda).
Principles are the the theory that drive each technique. Techniques without theory or principle behind them are just brawling. I don’t think you can chose to use one without the other. Lets take YouKnowWho’s Round Punch and explain what I mean:
#1. Swing your arm from your shoulder at the opponents head. Keep your arm lose like a rope with a rock at the end of it. Speed and momentum are the keys to power in this technique.
#2. Keep your elbows bent (in a guard) so that your fist is pointed upward toward the opponents head. Bend your knees, then drive off of your legs, hips and knees and swing your fist (Keep your elbow pointed down) at the opponents head. Body / Leg power are the keys to this technique.
#3. Swing aimlessly trying for that homerun knockout punch. Swing without reguard for position or posture, just try and whack the opponent. For the non martial artist this is all you know, Brawling.
All of these swing laterally, all of these are circular. Principle or theory (or lack there of) define each of these. Is it possible to use technique without principle, Yes. Is it better to use principle behind each technique, my opinion is Yes.
You really can’t have one without the other, can you?
The point is which is what makes the system, how is the system defined?
Principle based systems “don’t care” what technique you use as long as it adheres to the core principles of the system.
Systems that teach you a technique and say it must be done this way and that way and then YOU figure out how to apply it, those are “technique” based systems.
EX:
Technique based system:
Round kick - this is how you do a round kick insert example here
Spar and find out how it works best for you.
Principle based system:
We work on the outside of the opponent, his “blind side” and as such, we prefer to use the round kick this way, inline with our principle of being on the “outside” and “in his blind spot”.
