pressure point striking

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Although I’m not a believer in it i have been discussing pressure point striking with a sihing of mine who has showed me some of the more available Dilman and Wally J tapes.

My sihing is a long time wc practicioner and is currently studying meridian therapy and chinese medicine.

He has shown be some of the more redundant (at least IMO) techniques from the dummy & bil gee, and how they might be interpreted at meridian or pressure point striking using existing Dilman and Wally J tapes as examples.

I wanted to cast the line out and see if anyone has attended a Dilman, Wally J or other pressure point seminar, where the volunteers get knocked out and revived on a regular basis by light but precise double tapping of pressure points.

Do most or few people believe in this kind of thing?

As for my current opinion - for what its worth I dont. However I am keeping my eyes open for an Australian tour of one of these people and I will be the first to hold the hand up and say ok try it on me. Then perhaps I’ll review my stance.

Has anyone out there been a volunteer, if so did it work or was it a big bag of …:slight_smile:

2

Australia already has its very own “pressure point / dim mak expert”, Erle Montaigue. He hates Dillman and has vilified him in print several times, Look on his site www.taijiworld.com and you can find several Dillman critiques. Not that I find EM’s own material at all easy to swallow uncritically.

Letting yourself get knocked out by anyone via impact is a really bad idea healthwise. Trauma at some level is involved. In any case, everytime any boxer gets knocked out by copping a hit “on the button”, that’s arguably a pressure point strike.

One of my instructors can grab you with a crab, eagle or dragon claw on many parts of the body and make you jump with pain - just through attacking exposed nerves. He uses them mainly as techniques to loosen the muscles around the joint so that he can attack it with a lock or similar submission. He can certainly make this work, but this ain’t what Messrs Dillman and Montaigue purport to be diong.

Any one with more than a month’s BJJ training can send you unconscious - if you let them..

If there is anything to all this stuff, it’s not going to work unless you can already subdue opponents with cruder techniques like punches kicks knees elbows headbutts. The best it can be is the icing on the cake, not the main meal.

3

Originally posted by anerlich
[B]Australia already has its very own “pressure point / dim mak expert”, Erle Montaigue. He hates Dillman and has vilified him in print several times, Look on his site www.taijiworld.com and you can find several Dillman critiques. Not that I find EM’s own material at all easy to swallow uncritically.

Letting yourself get knocked out by anyone via impact is a really bad idea healthwise. Trauma at some level is involved. In any case, everytime any boxer gets knocked out by copping a hit “on the button”, that’s arguably a pressure point strike.

One of my instructors can grab you with a crab, eagle or dragon claw on many parts of the body and make you jump with pain - just through attacking exposed nerves. He uses them mainly as techniques to loosen the muscles around the joint so that he can attack it with a lock or similar submission. He can certainly make this work, but this ain’t what Messrs Dillman and Montaigue purport to be diong.

Any one with more than a month’s BJJ training can send you unconscious - if you let them..

If there is anything to all this stuff, it’s not going to work unless you can already subdue opponents with cruder techniques like punches kicks knees elbows headbutts. The best it can be is the icing on the cake, not the main meal. [/B]

I can certainly relate to being choked out in BJJ part of the learning curve when my purple belt instructor routinely crawls right over me like a nest of green ants.

I also agree with the icing on the cake, fine precise strking requiring finer motor skills to make work can be pretty hard in a random exchange.

My sihing has spoken to Erle pretty much because of the poor quality of the Dilman tapes which were advertised as instructive bu were basically random jumpy cuts from different seminars using a hand held cam corder.

I know that putting your hand up to be knocked out for such things aint necesarily conductive to healthy living, but thats the only way I’m going 100% to credit the stuff, through personal experience. The typical doulble tap strikes I’ve seen on the tapes were no harder than a firm knock on the front door and definately not concussive (at least in my sense of the word), yet they were knocking out some pretty bit karate brutes.

I can relate pressure points back to basic nerves and biomechanical weakness for such things but thats as far as it gos.

Ie: muscular nerve endings above the elbow, caroited artery, jaw, base of the scull/jaw, temple ect…

All good stuff that my western education can demostrate and accept. Still I’m curois

4

I went to one of those. After the coordinator explained the points-
he had people hitting their partners points- first begiining with the hands. My partner kept on hitting me on some supposedly key points on the hand—nothing happened.

I didnt let them hit me around the neck and heart— as i explained to the group-in real life I wouldnt be standing still
and letting people hit me.

Points are interesting things but one has to have the right dynamics for using them.

The Dillman crowd? Not my crowd.

5

namron,

If I may ask, who’s your BJJ instructor?

Certainly nothing wrong with curiosity.

BTW, Dillman’s also well known for karate bunkai (kata application), but IMO Australian Patrick McCarthy is every bit as knowledgable on that subject and probably a lot more. Plus he has some AWESOME weaponry and groundwork skills.

6

Originally posted by anerlich
[B]namron,

If I may ask, who’s your BJJ instructor?

Certainly nothing wrong with curiosity.

BTW, Dillman’s also well known for karate bunkai (kata application), but IMO Australian Patrick McCarthy is every bit as knowledgable on that subject and probably a lot more. Plus he has some AWESOME weaponry and groundwork skills. [/B]

no probs anerlich,

I know its gunna sound a bit strange but I dont actually know his full name, only that he is a Machado purple belt. I will however find out for you and tell you next week after training.

I have been rather slack and missed the last 3 saturdays so this will give me the incentive to get my ass back into gear.

He usually pops his head in to give us a schooling every fornight at the kickboxing gym I train at in Dandenong Victoria. Every other Saturaday the kickboxing coach who is also a blue belt Machado runs us through some drills and ‘in the hole’ training.

Most of us are pretty green except one guy Sam who has done about a year of BJJ in the city.

Bloody in the hole training just about destroys me especially when I’ve already done 3 other (non BJJ) classes in the same day!

Question, on the shoot (especially when your still learning) it appears pretty easy to wrap the head in a front headlock and crank to choke the opponent out (even if you end up on the ground). I’ve done this and had it done to me a couple of times, still following through with the take down (which makes me hesitant to shoot). When you end up on top of the opponent (ie hes on his back and your on top but still in the headlock), whats the most expediant method of release? Tried to triange an pry out with the forearm on the opponents neck but was found it hard going, and driving forward with your head into the opponents face seems to be a no no as I got choked out playing with a mate last time very quickly.

I hope to lay this one at my BJJ instructors feet next Saturday, any suggestions till then.

I shall check out the Patrick McCarthy tip, any links to sites or contact info would be most welcome.

7

Although I’m not a believer in it i have been discussing pressure point striking with a sihing of mine who has showed me some of the more available Dilman and Wally J tapes.

Pressure points do exist. Ask any doctor.

8

I’m sure they do exist but I’m also sure that the effects of a strike on these points can vary greatly depending on the individual recieving the strike and too many contextual details to enumerate here.
I think it is better to relie on a more “crude” strike delivery system but more reliable in the heat of battle.

The nose, jaw,throat,temple,solar plexus,ribs are all good targets to a solid punch as the groin,knees,shin,feet for a powerful kick.
And,many good targets are sometimes open for the elbows and knees depending on the situations.

Don’t neglect the effects of a solid blow on the center line,on the core of the opponent body,where he is forced to absorb all of the impact force.

It is better to relie on skill and powerful strikes then to relie on tricks that works mainly in demonstrations (IMO) .

9

Question, on the shoot (especially when your still learning) it appears pretty easy to wrap the head in a front headlock and crank to choke the opponent out (even if you end up on the ground). I’ve done this and had it done to me a couple of times, still following through with the take down (which makes me hesitant to shoot). When you end up on top of the opponent (ie hes on his back and your on top but still in the headlock), whats the most expediant method of release? Tried to triange an pry out with the forearm on the opponents neck but was found it hard going, and driving forward with your head into the opponents face seems to be a no no as I got choked out playing with a mate last time very quickly.

Best bet is to ask your purple belt instructor. Try to shoot with your chest rather than leading with the head, level change, don’t telegraph, etc etc. Easier said than done I know.

If you’re headlocked on the ground, but he hasn’t controlled your legs in guard or half guard, (he shouldn’t if you’ve wrapped his legs up with your arms while shooting), circle around the far side of his body and go to front control/north-south on your knees. This basically undoes the headlock. If he’s got you in the guard and is going for the guillotine, say with your head on his left side, wrap your left arm around his head, stack him, and drive your left shoulder into the left side of his neck to neutralise the choke.

MerryPrankster might have more to say on this. Both of those have worked reasonably well for me, though I wouldn’t say either was foolproof.

10

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
[B]

Pressure points do exist. Ask any doctor. [/B]

I do believe they exist but in a certain context, in the same way you can arm bar the nerve endings just above the elbow, lock the wrist or as old jong has said attack areas of weakness such as throat, temples, sternum etc.

The stuff I saw was wrapped in the whole gal bladder 9 and heart 5 lingo and most of the striking was done very lightly to put the volunteer out (tap the chest tap then cheek bone that kind of thing).

Old Jong said: ‘It is better to relie on skill and powerful strikes then to relie on tricks that works mainly in demonstrations.’ which I agree with but I guess I just want to know if theres something to the Dilmanaic pressure point seminars or whether its just smoke and mirrors.

I’ll have trouble believing until someone puts me under, but just thought I’d scout around to see if any others have checked this kind of thing out, especially in the USA where such seminars are likely to be more accessable.

Old Jong not sure I’d attack the core (chest?) myself although I find laying into the inside of the shoulder joint with the punches or better an elbow works good for me.

11

Anerlich: ta for the advice

12

namron

The “core” could be seen as well as the center of mass.It can be reached by any angle. The jong gives a good practice and understanding of this principle.
The idea is to shock the entire body of the opponent without giving him the chance to “roll” with the blow.

Hard to do without good relaxation and Chum Kiu first.

13

Every point on the body that is week is a pressure point.
Some are more vulnerable than others.
Every strike should be aimed at one.
To strike at anything is the way of a crude brawler, swinging wildly, relying on strength and luck.
SNT, CK and BG all rely on pressue points, it is how a true martial artist fights…
Cleverly.

14

Pressure point striking exists and it’s not hard to do at all. Perhaps in combat it may take sharper technique. I think you are referring to “killing or dim mak” techniques, especially using one finger.

It does exist..I konw one person that can do it. He is a chinese medicine practitioner and also a kung fu guy (ng jo kuen) in Hong Kong. Many times when he treats people, he uses one finger to strike points to loosen up muscles, shoot chi energy, etc etc..

Although I have never seen him use it in a fight, I see him use it all the time when he treats people. I’ve seen him over a few months.

I would imagine learning something liek this is extremely hard. A good chi kung foudation, along with knowing how to shoot chi using your fingers …is a must. Also..(i think) shooting chi without draining your own energy.

Now about shooting chi, I have met three people that can do it. One out of these 3…showed off many times and got really weak and sick for a few years. The other 2 know how to shoot it in a safer manner..a more deep understanding.

Both trained in villages/temples, not in any schools or whatever. One is 86 and the other is in their mid 50’s.

15

cha kuen thanks for the advice but probably not the kind of thing I was looking at, although similar.

I’m not a believer in the “killing or dim mak” techniques, especially using one finger, or chi.

The kind of thing I was referring to was more one or two ‘tap’ strikes to ‘pressure points’ rendering a loss of consciousness.

:slight_smile:

16

Originally posted by anerlich
[B]namron,

If I may ask, who’s your BJJ instructor?

[/B]

Oliver North

17

Well the hong kong guy , when he does his one finger healing, it’s only from an inch away. It seems as close to a “tap” as it is, I also heard that one time he was doing his healing and accidently hit a wrong point. The patient fell to the ground, and the sifu had to save his life..luckily he did.

18

Hmmm

This may be late in the thread but steer well clear of Dillman, he teaches unhealthy techniques and has done nothing more than graft the elementary rudiments of a more complex art onto his own Kata. It’s pretty ropey if you ask me.

19

Agree with repulsive monkey.