Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]YM,
No, no I won’t insist at all.
If you say you have the 8 Elbows form I believe you.
I didn’t realize you said that.
The 8 Talons form I mentioned has about the same first 10 moves of your zhai yao forms.
that is not the 8 elbows form you mean then?
Since you have seen the 2 versions of 8 elbows then that settles it.
But I had the understanding that Fan Xu Dong didn’t have any other tudi with 8 elbows.
So there are still some unanswered questions. [/B]
TM,
The three Zhai Yao forms do indeed share the same 9 moves opening. None of my other WHF lineage forms starts that way including Baht Zhao (8 Elbows) so I am sure it is not the 8 Talons form you have seen.
I have also since found other books that mimic WHF’s technical writing style so I would not be surprised if you saw a manuscript for this form in that style of writing. I would hesitate though to assume that it was penned by WHF since I have still yet to have anyone confirm from my WHF lineage that this form existed in his curriculum.
Definitely some questions still about the 8 Talons form. Do you know the lineage of the practitioner who you observed playing the form?
YM
YM,
The Lineage was Lee Kam Wing.
LKW, when learning my shrfu’s version, also told him he had such a form.
Bai Lung(White Dragon?),
This info condradicts your info and you know master Lee right?
So maybe what I tiold YM is hooey and I messed up.
Did your shrfu specifically say he doesn’t have such a form?
Lee Kam Wing
Tainan,
The official Lee Kam Wing site of England does not list this set, eight talons. I checked Chu Chi Man’s Kuen Po and it does not list this set either. Curious…
It may be left out of Sifu Lee’s curriculum today. It apparently was never a part of Chu Chi Man’s corpus nor was it with Wong Hon Fun’s corpus either.
Thank you and all for their input in this, I have learned a lot.
Steve Cottrell
Grandmaster Lee’s Curriculum
Hi Tainan/Steve,
look upon LKW’s list, i can’t find the form too.
Here is the Hong Kong List of LKWs Forms
Best regards
Chris
Forms
But it’s really funny!
… for example:
Kung Nek Kuen = is not 7-Star Mantis
Jeet Kuen = is not 7-Star Mantis
Fook Fu Huan Jo Kuan = is not 7-Star Mantis
Pa Kua Darn Do = is not 7-Star Mantis
Ng Fu Cheung = is not 7-Star Mantis
Yes, indeed these are Chin Woo forms, as you pefectly recognize.
What is the problem?
Divisions of Sets
GermanMantis,
As you have stated in previous posts, Hong Kong mantis has the distinction of being a part of the Qingwu curriculum. As such, many instructors of Hong Kong lineage can and do teach the Qingwu sets and their Luo Guangyu Tanglang sets. Others, observing that these were not originally a part of Tanglang, have dropped those sets since those instructors left the Qingwu organization. Lee Kam Wing, as I understand it, remains a part of the Qingwu and apparently chooses to keep those sets.
The distinction is often drawn here in the Americas between instructors who teach the Qingwu sets and those who do not. The way I understand it, those HK Tanglang practitioners who do not teach Qingwu sets feel that they are more “pure” in their Tanglang. Those HK Tanglang practitioners who include the Qingwu sets feel that they are their heritage and that it gives great training in fundamentals.
However, when I was on the mainland I found that instructors drew a further distinction, between those sets which were created by Luo Guangyu or brought into Seven Star by him and those sets which were a part of Tanglang as it existed in Yantai or Qingdao. There, it is considered more pure not to have the sets associated with Luo Guangyu’s development and to remain with those associated with Yang Weixin or Lin Jingshan.
Ultimately, to me, which traditional series of sets one uses is of secondary importance to the principles, tactics and techniques that make up one’s Tanglang. It is how one uses the art that is of primary importance. (Of course, I say this as I carefully research the history, techniques, variations and applications of the WHF Northern Praying Mantis sets I use!)
Hope it helps,
Steve Cottrell
puzzled
Originally posted by MantisifuFW
The distinction is often drawn here in the Americas between instructors who teach the Qingwu sets and those who do not. The way I understand it, those HK Tanglang practitioners who do not teach Qingwu sets feel that they are more “pure” in their Tanglang.
How does this fit with Sifu Pel’s post? He insists on teaching the
original 10 Chin Woo forms and at the same being a traditional mantis teacher.
Originally posted by Kai Uwe Pel
However on the other hand I also feel there are a lot of unproductive topics and discussions taking place that appear to be taking people further from the real meaning of praying mantis and traditional kung fu overall.
I would like to encourage everyone, who trains in traditional mantisboxing to do so with focus and dedication.
And taken from www.chinwoomen.com/faq.html
Originally - The 10 Chin Woo Basic Forms - Huo Yuen Jia’s Mi Zong Yi - Ying Zhao Fanzi Men (Eagle Claw) - Er Lang Men (traditional North Shaolin) - Qi Xing Tang Lang Quan (Northern Mantis) - Wu Shi Tai Chi. Our Shanghai World Chin Woo Men can teach All of these.
I’m very curious on his next post, as he foreshadowed in this thread. Also i like to mention that this post is not be meant as an insult but as a curious question. 
Hi ShanghaiKid,
yes logic is alway a proble, 'caus everybody has his one logic.
Maybe you still can help me out, because some point are still not clear.
Originally posted by shanghai_kid
To include some of them in a list of ‘seven star mantis forms’ is misleading. In the case of the list you provided, this comes from a ‘jing wu’ school also.
You say the list comes from a jing wu school, where seven star mantis is taught and additional the jing wu forms.
The same can be found on your page ‘chinwoomen’ were the 10 chin woo forms are the basics and then i can decide which way i want to go. So the difference is just the numer of chin woo forms and the style to choose.
I don’t realy care, if these forms are chin woo forms and not ‘traditional mantis forms’ (what realy is tradition? something that is passed on, nothing more)
It’s an easy way to point out that a published curriculum does contain foreign forms, but it’s a sign of strenght and pride to exopse it. BTW why can’t i find a list on your page. (Ahh Yes it’s still in progress. 
)
But nevertheless Sifu Pel wants to clear up, whats about with the chin woo forms. We are all very curious.
nothing new
Originally posted by shanghai_kid
[B]“You say the list comes from a jing wu school, where seven star mantis is taught and additional the jing wu forms.
The same can be found on your page ‘chinwoomen’ were the 10 chin woo forms are the basics and then I can decide which way I want to go. So the difference is just the number of chin woo forms and the style to choose.”
There is no list of forms on our site. So you cant find the same on our site.
[/B]What we are talking about eggs 'n apples, or the chin woo forms?
[B]
The FAQ clearly states that you do not have to learn the 10 basic forms first. Only that you must know them to graduate as a teacher. It’s Question 14 out of 20.
There is no point in replying to you any more unless you read what you’re talking about first. Properly. Just give me a private message. It’s less embarrasing. [/B]
Methinks, that’s not my silence that is embarrasing. :rolleyes:
In Malaysia, we have around 10 Chin Woo Schools. In these schools, they teaches forms from the “Tham Tui” Style. And the 10 basic Chin Woo forms are from this Tham Tui Style.
All students must learn this 10 forms before they can join the other styles. Unfortunately, the only styles available are Tham Tui, Eagle Claws and Tai Chi. And the sifus of Tham Tui usually teaches the other styles as well!
Then came the Preying mantis. The Preying Mantis was found in Penang, Kuala Lumpur and Singapore CW. Now, it is only taught in Penang Chin Woo. In Penang, we only learn the Preying Mantis, we dont have to learn the 10 Tham Tui forms because we are a force to reckon with! And also due to the facts that my sifu doesnt practise other styles whereas the other sifu “Li Bo Yan” also teaches other styles.
So, the 10 so called Chin Woo forms are in fact from Tham Tui Style.