Practicing techniques "too deadly for the ring"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Every kung fu style has techniques that could seriously injure your opponent, whether eye gouges, join manipulation, dislocation, dropping someone on their head, ball kicks, neck/throat/eye strikes, knee attacks, etc, etc.

How does your style practice these, with pressure, without actually hurting the other person?

This is a serious question. While I think it’s lame excuse to say “we can’t spar., we’re too deadly”, every traditional style has a range of techniques that are meant to maim. They’re perhaps useful for self-defense even if they never see the light of day in a competition.

So how do you practice 'em?

EO

2

I use a pell for full force sword striking and retention training.

The rest is through devices as well. Grip training, finger conditioning and other body part conditioning etc.

The thing is, the venue dictates the rules, so, there isn’t any such thing as too deadly for the ring.

Sparring is a good way to train for a venue and to familiarize yourself with the rules.

My sifu used to ask us who wanted to train for tourneys and those who chose to do the fights would have a completely different curriculum in order to train to the venue.

no thumb in the eye, fish hooking, elbow to xiphoid process, etc etc.

just basic high percentage attacks and solid defense conditioning.

3

No such thing as “too deadly” for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it’s a case of relativity.
If you can’t hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won’t be able to finger jab his eyes, that’s for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can’t hit a guy in the jaw, you won’t be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the “too deadly” is a moot point.

4

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1087712]No such thing as “too deadly” for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it’s a case of relativity.
If you can’t hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won’t be able to finger jab his eyes, that’s for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can’t hit a guy in the jaw, you won’t be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the “too deadly” is a moot point.[/QUOTE]

So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don’t need any kind of specific training–that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that’s needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term “too deadly” sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.

5

[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1087723]So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don’t need any kind of specific training–that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that’s needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term “too deadly” sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.[/QUOTE]

uh, I didn’t get that out of it.
He was saying basically the same thing i did.

IE: deadly attacks are not in the rule set for fighting in a ring and therefore are not of a concern to someone who wants to train to fight in the ring.

You can still learn how to hit the spine with your elbows etc. The fact that you can’t eye poke, fishhook, elbow the spine, etc in most combat venues makes the argument of “too deadly for the the ring” moot.

A straight up cross to the nose can kill you if it’s coming in at the right angle with good force. I’ve seen many a guy try to stick a thumb into someone’s throat and outright fail. I’ve seen guys try to use trapping and fail horribly etc.

6

[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1087723]So, if I follow, your argument is that these techniques don’t need any kind of specific training–that training within the confines of a rule-set that forbids them is all the training that’s needed?

EO

P.S.

I use the term “too deadly” sort of tongue in cheek. The reality is they are banned because they COULD cause permanent injury if applied correctly.[/QUOTE]

Well…how much special training do you need to drive an elbow into someones cricoid?
As much as you need to drive it into someones head.
My point is that if you can do it ( fight) in a limited rules environment then it is easier to do it when you have no rules to worry about.

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[quote=sanjuro_ronin;1087712]no such thing as “too deadly” for the ring, if you want to test a technique you cna always find a venue.
Beyond that, it’s a case of relativity.
If you can’t hit a guy in the head with a fist jab you won’t be able to finger jab his eyes, that’s for sure.
If you can kick a guy in the body or head or thigh, knee or groin is no problem.
If you can’t hit a guy in the jaw, you won’t be able to hit his throat.

Fact is, it is far harder to be effective with limited rules than with no rules so the “too deadly” is a moot point.[/quote]

qft…

8

[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1087706]So how do you practice 'em? [/QUOTE]
In sport, you fight with rules. In combat, you want to finish your opponent ASAP. The training are different. In sport, you may just want to win. In combat, you want to hurt your opponent.

You can train certain moves on throwing dummy or special designed equipments. You will need to develop some special skills to deal with “unfriendly challengers”. There is nothing better than to run your fingers across your opponent’s eyes first and then beat him up after that (not for sport). The question is how do you train “run your fingers across your opponent’s eyes” if no training partner will let you do that? A telephone book will be a good training tool for that. You can see how many pages that your fingers can dig into a phone book to see the progress of your skill development.

9

Why make such a big deal about it. It’s taking what you already know and using it on different targets on the body. Leverage is leverage, a hit is a hit a kick is a kick…:rolleyes:

10

If you are referring to MMA bouts, soft tissue (eyes, ears, throat) small joint manipulation, no kicking a downed opponent are the main ones. I know there are probably others but these are the main ones.

Like Ronin said, if you can’t jab someone in the face with your entire fist, what makes you think you can jab them in the eye with a serpent fang or spearhand? Most of these are better suited in the clinch or grappling, but ask yourself this. A good wrestler takes you down and has you mounted or you are in guard, who has control? Do you think you reaching up and clawing like some 6 year old school girl or trying to poke him in the eye is going to get him off? If anything it will p**iss him off more!

Those who are in a position of control are the ones who can probe soft tissue, or manipulate small joints, or reign knees into their head until you turn it into meat pudding. Before you start training to poke eyes, or use small joint manipulation, or whatever else, first learn to control your opponent. Shuai and wrestling practice will allow you to control your opponent, and you have to have control before any of those techniques will work.

11

[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1087706]seriously injure your opponent … [/QUOTE]
TCMA teachers always said that you will need to have few “black hands” to deal with “unfriendly challengers”. If you can hurt one challenger badly (such as make him to sit on his wheel chair for the rest of his life), your bad reputation spread out, nobody will ever want to knock on your door and challenge you again.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60142

12

this is like argueing with my ex. She has an agenda, and no matter what you say, she will say it, whether or not it is actually the original subject..
In other words, no one is really addressing the question here.
The question was not on the effectiveness of the techniques, but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?
Face it, you can’t claw a face, grip a trachea, kick or tear a groin, gauge an eye, etc..legally. So you need to find as many types of approximations as possible.
Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB. You can put on chest pads-Macho is almost bulletproof, and bang away on each other.
There are hanging man-like dummies that you can practice groin kicks on, but yuo can simply bang at the underside of a heavybag, or have your partner hold the pad facing downward.
Clawing cannot be done to the face, but you can get feedback from your partner by gripping his shoulder.
Various substances can be used for breaking-if done without a set-up, and using sudden explosiveness, you can guage whether or not you actually have the short power to do damage.
You can use clay and make a head, perhaps cover a plastic skull with it, and claw and rip away. (I did this on a whim, when I was in art school, during sculpture class. My teacher thought I was a bit..disturbed..)
But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact.

13

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1087732]TCMA teachers always said that you will need to have few “black hands” to deal with “unfriendly challengers”. If you can hurt one challenger badly (such as make him to sit on his wheel chair for the rest of his life), your bad reputation spread out, nobody will ever want to knock on your door and challenge you again.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60142[/QUOTE]

Haha…don’t worry, that’s not my goal. :rolleyes:

EO

14

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1087733]but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?.. But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact. [/QUOTE]

If you can pick your opponent up like this, how will you drop him should be your choice at that moment. Your opponent will have no defense against you when both of his feet are in the air.

Yoo can train the “firemen’s carry” with your regular training partner. You can only train your “head smashing” by using your throwing dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuBi8YIFrc

15

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1087733]The question was not on the effectiveness of the techniques, but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?
[/QUOTE]
traditionally on a wooden dummy or sandbag

16

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1087733]
Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB.[/QUOTE]Yes, I have a body opponent bag. Its actually quite hard. The head and neck are shaped for technique. But without the pesky bones that get in the way.

17

two too

18

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1087733]this is like argueing with my ex. She has an agenda, and no matter what you say, she will say it, whether or not it is actually the original subject..
In other words, no one is really addressing the question here.
The question was not on the effectiveness of the techniques, but for those who do practice these, how are they practiced?
Face it, you can’t claw a face, grip a trachea, kick or tear a groin, gauge an eye, etc..legally. So you need to find as many types of approximations as possible.
Vital point strikes, which are pulled on sparring, can be practiced on a BOB. You can put on chest pads-Macho is almost bulletproof, and bang away on each other.
There are hanging man-like dummies that you can practice groin kicks on, but yuo can simply bang at the underside of a heavybag, or have your partner hold the pad facing downward.
Clawing cannot be done to the face, but you can get feedback from your partner by gripping his shoulder.
Various substances can be used for breaking-if done without a set-up, and using sudden explosiveness, you can guage whether or not you actually have the short power to do damage.
You can use clay and make a head, perhaps cover a plastic skull with it, and claw and rip away. (I did this on a whim, when I was in art school, during sculpture class. My teacher thought I was a bit..disturbed..)
But honestly, the only way to see if your technique works, is to do it. Of course, this is not moral, or legal, but it is a fact.[/QUOTE]

Training and conditioning any technique is easy, bag work, dummy work and so forth.
What you are truly asking is how does one test those skills?
We can grab the iron bag as much as we want and close the captn’s of crush as many times as we can but that doesn’t equal being able to crush a throat does it?
Well, yeah it kind of does, technically, bu not intent-wise and I guess that is the point.
If I can crush 3" of concrete slab with a knife hand I have the speed and power and conditioning to do it to someone’s neck or throat or ribs, BUT CAN I do it?

Goes back to what I said earlier.

If you can fight with your “hands ties behind your back” you can fight with them not tied.

19

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1087741]
If I can crush 3" of concrete slab with a knife hand I have the speed and power and conditioning to do it to someone’s neck or throat or ribs, BUT CAN I do it?[/quote]

That’s what I’m getting at.

EO

20

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1087741]BUT CAN I do it?[/QUOTE]

How to train bitting?

beginner level - get a raw pig leg and sink your teeth all he way to the bone.

intemediate level - try to bite a live snake’s head off, or a life dog’s leg off.

advantage stage - go to the zoo and try your skill against a life lion or tiger.