What I have been getting from most people about the pole form is that it has basically been reduced to an excersise to strengthen the hands? Is there anything else we can get out of the form?
Been reduced to what?! Did I miss a series of posts? Not only does the pole train the body, the application of long single weapon, and other factors, its just a lot of good fun as well. 8)
Rgds,
RR
red5angel
I dont think that you are reading the relevant posts carefully.
Dave asked me some questions on the pole and I actually answered him in the thread you now want closed.
In any case time is better spent mastering the earlier forms before handling weapons…otherwise it can delay the development and understanding of the appropriate weapons skills.
RR - what would you say those other factors are?
Yuanfen - Getting rid of the thread is only my opinion, not fact, and who says we cant learna thing or two from mindless drivel. As for the subject at hand, no pun intended, I would tend to agree with you on waiting on the pole, although your knowledge goes much deeper then mine at the moment, it just seems right. The impression I have got from most people and thier post, which as of late tend to be shallow on explanation, is that teh pole does not serve much purpose at this point and I am trying to understand if it doesnt, why practice it, if it does, what would people believe those to be?
red5
I’m not going to recount the history of WC here, but I’m sure if you look around the board, you’ll find a brief history of WC and see why the pole form is a part of the system.
If the pole form didn’t serve a purpose, i’m sure it wouldn’t be in the system.
I have a feeling the people who would tell you the pole form isn’t important would probably say the same thing about Bui Jee.
Spark, I am familiar with the history, several anyway. I know why it was put there. What I am asking is, from a practical point of view does it still teach us something? Is it there in the off chance I might be practicing when I am attacked and have my spear handy?
Is it just to strengthen my arms? Do we just practice it out of tradition?
The value of the weapons of Wing Chun are only seen by those who achieve that level. Meaning that you might have the same opinion of Chi Sao having never played it.
The weapons are understood by a dedicated few and mastered by even less. It would not seem practical that we would walk down the street carrying our 8 or 9 foot pole to protect us against an attacker. However, do not doubt that one could become a skilled pole handler. And, if utilized in a practical combat situation, you would not want to be the person at the other end of the pole thrusted by someone of skill. The pole also gives one extreme punching power, much like a shotgun, as well as an understanding of another centerline - that created along your shoulder. Have you ever seen Chi Kwan (pole vs pole)?
Everything in Wing Chun is available for individual interpretation and adaptation.
Good luck in your Kung Fu…
You can use any fairly long, fairly rigid instrument that might be available - pool cue, garden tool, construction material, etc. It also does more than strengthen your arms. It builds up your whole body, and your whole-body.
BTW- Everything in WCK besides the vertical thrusting punch is useless - IF you can do a perfectly timed, perfectly powered, perfectly pathed vertical thrusting punch each and every time, in each and every situation. If you lack that level of constant perfection, you might need a few other things, including the contents of Biu Jee and the training of the Six-and-a-half Point Pole along the way to developing that constant perfection. 
Rgds,
RR
Lindley57 - what you say sounds reasonable. I would assume the pole form would not be easy to interpret unless you hae recieved that training and are at a level to understand it fully, that is why I put it out there. Thanks for the reply.
My instructor says the principles of the pole can be applied to the staff or a shorter stick. The only thing is, you can’t twirl the pole. It is good for strength training, and for those without exposure to other chinese MA it serves as an intro to some different stances. Also, consider that many styles train weapons that are no longer in use, or your not likely to have access to, like the Kwan Dao, double hook swords, etc. I have to say, I haven’t learned the form yet, but I have found the basic training we do with the pole to be, in short, fun.
-FJ
I would argue that ultimately practise with the pole must have direct application to combat. If it were only some quaint form of resistance training to augment one’s unarmed combat abilities, I would argue that modern sport science could come up with something better.
IMHO the value of the WC weapons is that their techniques can be applied to objects you might find lying around in a defense situation, e.g., in the case of the pole as Rene said, brooms, rakes, pool cues, walking sticks, garden stakes. It is arguable that the pole is more advantageous to practice for defense than the swords, since you only need one, not two, and a sharp edge and hook is not required. Of course, sword techs can be modified to use only one hand and with blunt instruments.
The pole is different to other parts of WC in that it requires the use of a single weapon, rather than having two hands/swords that can be used independently. The weight of the traditional pole also requires much more attention to correct leverage and bodily alignment than does the open hand and swords (not saying that those attributes aren’t used or developed or required by open hand or sword practice, rather that it’s much more difficult to “cheat” with the pole than it is with lighter weapons).
I think that one needs a level of basic facility with WC principles and their application before weapons training is introduced, but I do not agree that a high level of skill is needed or desirable.
If our goal is to teach people effective self-defence quickly, then we need to introduce the use of incidental weapons as soon as possible. If effective use of WC weapons requires ten years plus of training before a student can begin to use them effectively, then I would argue that it fails in what is often touted as its primary purpose, i.e. to teach people effective self defence in as short a time as possible. I’d be advising people to learn Philipino systems and firearms instead.
My organisation normally encourages people to start training with weapons after 12-18 months of training.
what if that’s not what your goal is?
david
what if that’s not what your goal is?
Well, d’oh , then I guess you might approach things differently.
Do you have a different goal? An opinion as to when the weapon should be taught in accordance with it? Anything of substance to add to the thread?
well, i’m nowhere near the weapons training yet, but have played the pole a little. Heres my thoughts.
Think if you can issue power at the end of the 8 foot (or whatever size) pole. Using Ging… what would that mean for your empty hand skills? It would mean that they are very clear, which is good. It helps develop your stance like doing SLT, as well as other things.
Also there is Chi Gwun (sticky pole) exercises, but like i said i dunno much about them (only on SLT right now). I’m sure they help develop your sensitivity and footwork a lot as well.
Why does using the 8 foot pole have to be applicable to combat? I’m sure the principles of it are, but theres a lot more to learn from it than the movements and applicaitons i think… Also it’s part of the history, so to complete the system u should study it.
just my random thoughts,
david
Re: Pole form - Should it be practiced?
Originally posted by red5angel
What I have been getting from most people about the pole form is that it has basically been reduced to an excersise to strengthen the hands? Is there anything else we can get out of the form?
Reduced??? Red5angel, kind sir, may I ask, have you learned the pole form?
fun???
What’s with people saying “the pole is fun?” What’s so “fun” about it?
It’s no fun at all. Polework is grueling hard work. In fact, it could easily be considered the most difficult, and painful part of Wing Chun training. But the rewards are great, which of course - justifies the torture.
I think the pole is most useful for developing power and especially relaxed power just as wearing weights on the chi kung bit of SLT. And your right it is torture but worth doing. And even if we never use a pole in a fight then ok for you it’s just power training but it’s a very suitable form of power training for wing chun because of the use of ging energy in the techs. Don’t knock power training it’s good for you.
Sabu, not yet.
so far it has been an interesting discussion. For myself, well, I dont know, as I have replied to Sabu, I have not yet begun to train in the pole, so am not sure from experience what it has to offer me. I just keep getting the impression most people consider it more excersise then anything else.
so far input has been interesting…and varied.
Red5> i think there are many reasons why you should trian the pole. But like yourself, i’m only on SLT right now, and have enough trouble doing that 
But there has to be a good reason it’s there. I’m sure it can teach you so much more than just combat…
david
Dezhen - you may be right. ultimately until I get there I will not know, but it is interesting to see the ideas others have.