Piercing Power

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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the less surface area you contact, and shorter the amout of time during contact, the more the force unfolds into the opponet rather than bouncing back into your arm, and the more force delivered in that short amount of time, the more piercing power.

Think of a wild cat pouncing, a thunderbolt striking, or a wave crashing into a rock. That is the manner in which you have to move your body to strike in that way. You must be relaxed until you make contact, THEN you deliver force. Its like using a yo-yo or cracking a whip. The same kind of attitudes and reflexes involved.

Would you say that is an accurate description of piercing power?

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Very possibly

3

Surface area is a slightly different issue to the mechanics of the punch IMO. Choice of palm strike, punch, phoenix eye, are related to both the surface we’re striking and the route we got there.

Time of delivery - depends wether you’re trying to impart momentum (push them away) or energy (destruction).

Cracking the whip or the yo-yo - that’s to do with shoulder action, pulling back. There are a number of reasons to do that - and why wing chun teaches us to punch differently to boxers, for example.

4

In my view WCK has more than 1 type of punch, and each of those has different (body)mechanics that naturally produces different results/effects on the target. And, the method (the strategic battleplan or approach to fighting) of WCK is different than boxing’s, so naturally the WCK tools (used to implement that method) will be different than boxing’s tools (though there may be some things that are similar).

Since you seem to be talking about the jik chung choi, instead of the esoteric descriptions I think it more productive to focus on results (is it working?). For example, the airshield test – stand in YJKYM and have a training partner holding an airshield on his chest run toward you from across the room (keeping his chest facing you for target value). When he comes into range, strike the shield with your jik chung choi (punch) without stepping (remaining in YJKYM) or turning. This tests your basic punch’s mechanics, and you’ll know if you have the (body)mechanics down or not – if you have the mechanics working then you should remain rooted (stationary) while your opponent should not only be stopped cold (like he ran into a wall) but actually knocked sharply backward with a jolt that feels like it has penetrated (piercing power) through the airshield; if you don’t have the mechanics, your punch will collapse or you’ll be knocked backward or otherwise fail.

There’s no value in talking about “cracking the whip” or “cat pouncing” and things like that IME.

5

Here are some notes I jotted down recently about the wc punch.

How is power generated?

a) from the local muscles in the arm (extending)

b) from the torque of the waist (turning)

c) From the forward motion of the body (stepping)

Everytime you hit your punch should have these 3 elements involved. In fact even when you punch whilst stepping back these elements are involved since c) is created by your opponents forward step

However all these elements can be found in a boxing punch so what distinguishes the wc punch?

  • Ease with which it can be recycled (less chambering).

  • Proximity to the target ( hands already halfway extended),

  • elbow down (this creates a connection with the stance, meaning that all the returning force upon impact is channelled down through your stance into the ground and back out again, creating a force feedback loop that amplifies your pre-existing power)

  • elbow rising as it goes forward, point of impact being short of the complete range of motion, which finishes beyond the target (thus you are punching through them and not at them (this helps uproot the target)).

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Re: Piercing Power

Hey Yaksha,

I don’t know about piercing power, but the quantity of Force transferred to your opponent will equal the quantity of force transferred back to you at the point of contact. No matter how quickly you hit, you can’t get around that physical law.

Marcus

Originally posted by Yaksha
[B]the less surface area you contact, and shorter the amout of time during contact, the more the force unfolds into the opponet rather than bouncing back into your arm, and the more force delivered in that short amount of time, the more piercing power.

Think of a wild cat pouncing, a thunderbolt striking, or a wave crashing into a rock. That is the manner in which you have to move your body to strike in that way. You must be relaxed until you make contact, THEN you deliver force. Its like using a yo-yo or cracking a whip. The same kind of attitudes and reflexes involved.

Would you say that is an accurate description of piercing power? [/B]

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hi guys ,

when you punch someone do u hit straight through (parallel to the ground) or do you hit at an angle upward/downwards into your opponent?

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“the quantity of Force transferred to your opponent will equal the quantity of force transferred back to you at the point of contact. No matter how quickly you hit, you can’t get around that physical law”

This is an interesting point an I’m interested if it’s accurate or not. I’d like to say that I’m definitely not a scientist in any way and have only a basic knowledge of Newtons laws regarding the conservation of momentum. And life.

His Second law states basically that F=MA and the third law states that “every action has an equal and opposite reaction”.

From my study of Mechanics I would say that some force is transferred back to the attacker, but depending on the strike on your opponent (in this cause I’ll pressume “piercing” refers to seeking to go through your opponent) the rest should be dissapated by the displacement of your opponent.

In real life terms, the effects of a car crash would illustrate my point - the car that gets hit gets wrote off and the bumper only takes marginal damage - (unless it’s a head on but I’m visualising a moving body striking a stationary one).

This is a topic that interests me, particulary the point already raised of body unity. I noticed that my seniors could displace me much easier / further with their chain punches whilst it was a struggle to move them with mine. It’s definitely one of many things I’m looking of working on.

For me the ultimate display of this kind of blow is Brad Pitt’s performance on the boxer at the gypsy site.Classic. I think I’m right that Geoff Thompson also works on the generation of a “one hit” powerful pre-emptive strike but I may be digressing. So I’ll end.

Simon.

Xin Nian Kuai le!

9

A good quote from aristotle i found recently

‘The animal that moves does so by pushing against that which is beneath it’.

10

I agree with t_niehoff

There are mulitple types of Wing Chun punches.

    1. chair kuen = pulling vertical punch
    1. chaap kuen = low punch

Faan kuen = circling punch either inside or outside

    1. ngoi faan kuen = inside whip punch
    1. hoi faan kuen = outside whip punch
    1. doi gok kuen = diagonal punch
    1. chour kuen = hammerfist
    1. joong-lo kuen = drilling punch

Chun geng kuen= one inch punch

Fung ngan kuen or fung an kuen = phoenix eye punch with the index knuckle forward

Lin wan kuen = continuous chain punching

Here is a section on punching from the Wing Chun Archives web site.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/gordon_punching.html

Eight Fists
The most used and recognized Wing Chun punch is the pulling vertical punch “chair kuen”. It is said that all other punches are a variation based on this simple yet very important punch. The proper structure is by holding the fist vertical, the whole fist should make contact with the intended target, with the bottom three knuckles emphasized. By holding the fist in a vertical position, the muscles in the arm are kept in their most relaxed and natural position. This position also considers the skeletal structure of the arm. Basically, the skeletal alignment is very strong structurally while the muscles are being kept relaxed, allowing for fast punches with the explosive release of energy into the opponent. The punch explodes forward like a bullet. The elbow is forced inward and down by keeping the fist vertical, this position promotes trapping, a method used in conjunction with the attacking hand. The elbow should work like a piston pushing and pulling the fist to its proper placement, along the elbow line. The rear elbow’s position also helps to defend against mid level body attacks. Even though this punch travels in a straight line, it contains drilling movement, without this the punch is dead, not to mention there a greater possibility of damaging the elbow. This punch is considered an uprooting technique because of the rising path it travels. It starts at the height of the sternum and drills upward until the motion completes at shoulder height, thus, uprooting the opponent if properly placed. When the fist is in the rear position, do not bend the wrist, keep it in the same position as it would be when extended.

Drilling punch “joung-lo kuen” is a mid level punch that travels down the centerline and stops with the elbow about a fist away from the practitioners own body with palm facing upward. This punch drills forward and makes contact with the entire fist, while focusing on the front two knuckles because of the angle of the fist. This punch has forward energy with a slight upward drill; it may also be used similar to a boxer’s uppercut. Don’t extend this punch; keep it close to the body and bring your body to the target.

Low punch “chaap kuen” is a straight punch focused at a low-level area. The entire fist makes contact while the focus is on the first two knuckles. The angle of the fist is almost horizontal. A low vertical punch would make contact with the index finger first, putting the wrist in a vulnerable position. While practicing this punch, it should be aimed forward, not to the floor. Again, like all the punches, there must be drilling motion within this punch.

Inside whipping punch “ngoi faan kuen” is a straight punch that starts with a small circle which travels to a straight line. This punch travels on the centerline and is used to move around something in its path with a circular movement. The elbow must not float outward from the side of the body otherwise this punch would become a back-fist, which is not a Wing Chun punch. The elbow must be behind the fist to power it forward. The entire fist will make contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized. A whipping type of energy should be used with is punch.

Outside whipping punch " hoi faan kuen" is very similar to the inside whipping punch except that it circles to the outside of the centerline and proceeds back to the centerline. This punch also uses a whipping motion and is used to move around something that is blocking its intended target. Keep the circles very small for both the inside and outside whipping punches otherwise you will open yourself up for an attack. Again, the entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Inside diagonal punch “ngoi doi gok kuen” appears similar to a boxers hook except that the whole body turns, drilling the punch into the center, ending with the fist on the centerline. This fist can be used when a straight line cannot. The fist is at the height of the sternum when practicing in the air, while the angle of the fist is in between being horizontal and vertical (palm facing yourself). The elbow is out slightly, while sunk. The entire fist makes contact with this punch.

Outside diagonal punch “hoi doi gok kuen” travels from the opposite shoulder and heads in a straight line to the centerline. This punch cuts inward to find or create an opening in an opponent’s structure. This fist can be used when you do not have the centerline. Quite often, outside facing footwork is used with this punch. The entire fist makes contact with the lower three knuckles emphasized.

Hammer fist “chour kuen” makes contact with the bottom side of the fist. In order to structurally support the fist, the thumb must be placed on top of the index finger rather than on the side. This fist may be applied in any angle needed, high or low. Any type of chopping motion may be replaced with the hammer fist.

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Nick Forrer - LOTS missing from your list. At a high level - The whole body. In detail - deep musculature (especially in the torso).

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Nick,

From my perspective, the core power of WCK (at least as I practice it), comes from a certain body mechanic that is associated with the YJKYM, and doesn’t rely on stepping or torquing with the body (those are additional mechanics that can be done independently or combined). Nor does the power of the jik chung choi (in YJKYM) come from the extension of the arm (as the power is generated by the body). The drill I described tests our development of that mechanic.

Simon, Marcus, et. al.,

Just like it isn’t helpful or productive to talk about the power (punch) being a “lightning bolt” it doesn’t help to think about it from a (pseudo) physics POV. You can’t learn or develop any physical skill that way. (It reminds me of the cartoon where the nerdish kid on the basketball team diagrams with scientific and mathematical computations how to sink the basket and then goes out on the court and makes the “magical” shot! In real life, it doesn’t work that way.).

Mechanics (using our body in a specific way) are based on feeling and involve using some specific result to guide the adjustment of how you are using your body to achieve that result. For example, if you want to learn a good forehand drive in tennis, someone would first show you the basic “form” of a forehand, and then have you actually hit the ball with it telling you to try to get it into the court. Then they would work – drill – on developing your mechanics (the best way to maximize the results you’re looking for) which is how you obtain real power in your drive. You judge your development (improvement of mechanics) based on how well power is transmitted to the ball (does it blast off your racket like a rocket) and your ability to keep it in the court (with control, placement, etc.) – results. It is important to note that there is more to a forehand than just hitting the ball as hard as you can, and good mechanics allow us to get “maximum results with minimum effort” (to quote the kuen kuit). And it’s the same with the WCK punch – there’s more to it that simply extending the arm as forcefully as possible. Good mechanics are like a lever. Thinking about F=MA won’t make your forehand or your punch any better

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Terence,

In teaching the punch - allowing for a variation in individual learning and cognitive styles should be taken into account. No reason i can see that a slightly poetic metaphor doesn’t have its place.

For some people - pseudo-physics is helpful. Someone with a real understanding of physics will only find it distracting. Depends on the context.

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Originally posted by crimsonking
In detail - deep musculature (especially in the torso).
What specific muscles are you referring to?

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His first post basically described the JKD as bruce lee said it.

A whip, instead of a hammer.

The generation of power quite frankly, is generated through relaxation in application, no matter the punch.

And some wing chun kuen, doesn’t have all the punches that someone mentioned, those are the punches as Augustine Fong catagorizes them as I remember my studies correctly. Too many different names for basically the same punch, they’re only coming from different directions…to me there’s no need to make 4 punches in a curriculum that are basically the same. The whipping punch is still the straight punch, only coming from a bong position or something of the like depending on whether it’s inside or outside whipping, the diagonal punch, is the same as the chair kuen except the angle that you’re punching from…do you really think it’s necessary to catagorize it as a “different” punch? And then like I said, some lineages don’t have all the catagorizations at all.

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t_niehoff

I think you mis-understand my point and the motivation behind my post.

I am simply interested if the point regarding power transference is correct or not.

In the style of Wing Chun I study we don’t do the hand / skin strengthening exercises that I know some flavours go for. Instead we concentrate on strengthening the wrist (among other mechanics) by striking the wallbag in particular. From my limited understanding this is the conduit and focus for the power behind the punch. The aim is to get as much of your body weight focused through this conduit and into your opponent.

To be honest I couldn’t give a monkeys for algebraic formula. All i want to know if that when push comes to chain punch I can neutralise the attacker.

This is of pertinent interest to me because unfortunately one of the only times I’ve had to fight a few years back I was highly inebriated. The guy came at me and due to many factors (my level, confidence and state of drunkeness) I advanced with chain punches.

The force of my punches put the other guy down but the resultant force also caused me to loose my own footing in a scene a lot less classy than Rocky v Apollo the rematch. Drunkeness not doubt played a major part but sometimes you can’t choose when confrontations occur.

I know there’s no “magic punch”, no matter how cool it looks on TV. Right now I’m not able to do a lot of partner work else I would play with the punch as my seniors have done on my torso before and see what works. Therefore, I think.

Simon.

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Sounds to me like you fell because you were drunk, not because of anything to do with the punching.

The punches work - punch from the heart, keep the arms loose until impact, snap your wrist, power comes from the ground-you need to have body unity and and good stance foundation for this. Without balance, power cannot be generated. Remember to drive in with your body , and not lean forward, be aggressive with your footwork, and punch him! If he’s still there…punch him again, and again.

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Vankuen,

You’ll get no argument from me! It’s a bit hazy if I fell on contact or over his feet when I was admiring my work as he was struggling to get up. How it all ended up is a long story but to keep it short - reprecussions. Again, old lesson - if you can avoid a fight do so but there’s times…thankfuly few.

Back to my point which I do apologise if it’s off thread - I’m new posting here.

That experience was a drunken one but actually punching something solid does raise some interesting question. In the UK (not there now) whole lessons would go pass without me punching anything.WTF.

My latter experience of punching airshields, wallbags, chest protectors, and people tell me that there is a whole mixed bag of structural mechanics that I should try to understand, if not employ. Specifically what I’ve been trying to convey is dealing with the force that comes and harnessing the force created. Example - I can’t move the man infront of me like I should and my stance is rocked.

Right now I’m thinking about one of my si-soqs talking about “finishing the step” and locking the knees. The points you raised were also good and I do try to be mindful of them.

Don’t worry, if I could ask my seniors / Sifu I would but I’m working overseas at the moment.

Oh and Vankuen I dig what you’re saying, in the words of my Si-fu,

“To be kind to your opponent is to be cruel to yourself”

Peace,

Simon.

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Simon,

you fell because you were pssed, you bst*rd. You get my email yet?

Here’s a nice drill set for you- get a 6-8 lb rubber medicine ball (or a 4 and a 10 so you can work one for power one for more speed). Hold it elbows in (like the piercing hands in CK) and fire it at a wall, standing at a distance where you can catch it without having to change levels too much. Fire the ball at the wall, catch and absorb, then fire again as fast as possible after the catch, absorbing with the body as much as possible and with the arm as little as possible. Do sets of 20. Then do roughly the same thing with the turn. Next, do this drill, throwing the ball the same way but with a step, stepping back quickly, then stepping into the ball as it rebounds (probably a bit off-center), trying to catch it with your lead foot midair, absorb, and fire it back at the wall as you close the stance down. The last one is easier with a partner, btw.

Later,

Andrew

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Andrew,

Yep and it was great to hear from you. I’ll fire one back (specifically to ask about that active bong reply) but I’m getting ready for the only week’s holiday we get here in Taiwan for Chinese New Year which for me starts later on today.

Thanks for the drill btw. I’ll look to get a medicine ball ASAP. The weird thing about Taiwan is it’s not how you’d expect it to be. The electronics aren’t really that much cheaper (apart from PC’s) and there’s hardly any MA shops. When my training partner gets back from the states I’ll try a few things on him as well.

All the best,

Simon.