first of all, i just wanted to let u all know that i dont practice any form of taiji or whatsoever. I’m interested in some of the taiji/qigong concepts though.
There was this one part in the book taiji for dummies where the author describes what he witnessed at a construction site in hong kong where this old man was carrying a massive objects on his back, I dont really remember the exact words since it was a while back ago i read it, but i think he said something like, the man wasn’t very physically strong, but he sure understood the concepts of taiji.
now, to my question… what are these? can qi really help you to endure great physical exertion? I’m aware of hard qi gong, etc. but this isn’t exactly the same…
LC is trying to get you to see that theres differences in the things you’re asking. Some of them are linguistic, some philosophic, some categorical. So, Taijiquan is an art, qiqong is another thing, etc. although we all realize, i guess, that there’s overlap involved.
I don’t do TJQ myself, but here’s a ? for you: what does the book say these concepts are? and also: have you tried lifting anything yourself while trying to figure it out?
Tai Ji is a philosophical concept (Yin & Yang) coming from the I Ching.
Tai Ji or Great Polarity or Great Extremity or Great Pivot. It is a Daoist concept. You have to understand something about Taoism to understand this concept.
The “Tai Ji” of Tai Ji Chuan refers to the same thing ie they are the same characters as Tai Ji as in the Taoist philosophy.
Taijiquan isn’t a daoist art. It has no historical connection to daoist practice. You can use the yin/yang theory with your taiji, or if you want to you can connect the 8 basic movements with the eight trigrams, but this doesn’t make it a daoist art. Calling taijiquan an ancient daoist art is really just a marketing thing, because daoism seems to be very “in” these days.
There is a long history of Taoists and Tai Chi linking.. that, or many ancient texts have been to Marketing 101.. but, neither belongs to the other.. their complimentary philosophies are just another of the Universe’s marvelous coincidences..
Tai Chi is a “way” of living, a philosophy closely approximating Taoist concepts.. Tai Chi Chuan, is a Martial Art based on these philosophies and insights..
ZIM
Yes, i (and my students) routinely approach specific tasks with the “intent” of finding Tai Chi (Chuan) within the task and effecting a positive result through the principles of Tai Chi (Chuan).. in the case of lifting.. posture, breath control, physical alignment, “intention”, and conditioning (ie: expressing specific training principles such as spiral energy vs. circular vs. linear..) experiences are all brought to bear on the task and results are discussed to determine if there is a common theme to efficiency and effectiveness as applied to the task..
Yes, i (and my students) routinely approach specific tasks with the “intent” of finding Tai Chi (Chuan) within the task and effecting a positive result through the principles of Tai Chi (Chuan).. in the case of lifting.. posture, breath control, physical alignment, “intention”, and conditioning (ie: expressing specific training principles such as spiral energy vs. circular vs. linear..) experiences are all brought to bear on the task and results are discussed to determine if there is a common theme to efficiency and effectiveness as applied to the task..
As it should be. NOTHING beats the doing.
Taijiquan isn’t a daoist art. It has no historical connection to daoist practice.
really ? that seems like a hard one to prove. One creation theory credits the introduction of internal work into chen family martial arts to Jiang fa - supposadly a taoist priest see http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg1.htm
of course there also other theories that contradict this so who can be sure.
Its much harder to eliminate indirect taoist influence on taiji quan since pretty much any qi related theory or practice has some connections to taoist theory - even
buddhist arts due the the intermingling of knowledge - both taoism and buddhism were influenced heavily by each other over the years.
Peter Lim simply mentions all the available origin stories, lots of what he lists there is full of holes/disputed and does not co-incide with what comes from the families.
Chen Village also has a LOT of influence fom the Shaolin Temple, where they practice internal sets, as well as other arts like Xing Yi, etc.
I agree that it has taoist influences (Jiang Fa/weak, etc.) but I would not call it a taoist art.
Some very similar concepts can also be found in other more southern arts.
I personally don’t believe in the Chang Sang Feng origina theory, neither do I belive that Chen Wang Ting created TJQ perse.
The true history is a lot longer and involves more people than are publicly known.
Yes and if Jing-fa is a Taoist Priest that doesn’t automatically qualify Taiji Quan as a Taoist art. I’m sure Jiang-fa used to empty his bowels, but that doesn’t make taking a dump a Taoist art now does it???
ok fair point. I’m curious though - what would be considered a taoist art and why ? somthing that has been studied continuously in taoist temples ? or somthing that subscribes to taoist cosmology or energy theories ?
Shaolin kung fu as practiced by shaolin monks would be considered a buddhist art but what about lay westerners practicing the same system ? are they practicing a buddhist art ?
If it was practiced by daoists. Daoists were initiated into a certain school or tradition, and practiced those methods. Unlike today, one couldn’t read the Dao De Jing and proclaim that they were “a daoist”.
Taking a dump isn’t a daoist art, but I suppose that you could dump in a daoist fashion. There is a difference. Taijiquan isn’t a daoist art, but it does contain the daoist theories of wuwei, yin/yang, bagua, etc. etc. However, none of that is reeeally too important for your taiji practice, unless you’re fond of that kind of stuff. IE, you don’t need to connect the 8 basic movements with the bagua, in terms of developing your taiji, but if you’re so inclined, you certainly can.
For me for TJQ to become a Taoist art it needs to have been practised unbroken since it’s inception at Taoist temples or by recorded taoist practicioners.
Today we still need to be able to go to the palce of origin and the art should look the same as taught commonly.
There was quiet a bit of sharing of ideas and values especilaly between Zen Buddhist and Taoist priest.
Some Shaolin Monks became Taoist priests in order to escape prosecution.
Chang Sang Feng is too disputed and too neat a history/lineage in my Opinion, plus what happened between the time he lived and the advent of TJQ in Chen village 200+ years later?
There are even disputes as to who softened the TJQ arts, Jiang Fa being the cental person(in most) but some claim he influenced YLC who softened the art.
But I think it is useless to speculate, when even so many different stories of YLC early life are abound and what he knew before and why he came to Chen village.
Sometimes i feel that we confuse Taoist philosophy with ritual Taoist religion.. they differ substantially.. Core Taoist philosophy would preclude Temples and religious trappings excepting the occasional meeting to share insights.. In his pivotal work, Tao Te Ching, Lao Tzu never mentions religion of Tao, heirarchy of priests, or organized ritual for pursuit of Tao.. Ritual and religious practice developed to placate those indoctrinated by other such practices, to fit into the common metaphysical experience of the time.. Ultimately, the experience of Tao, the full awareness of it, is a deeply personal awakening that transcends the very words used to describe it (Chapter 1, Tao Te Ching)..
Is Tai Chi a Taoist Art, absolutely.. there is nothing that is not Tao.. Are we so devisive and predisposed to quibbling that we will conjure “rules” to define what is Taoist?.. apparently.. From the perspective of the Taoist, Tai Chi is a Taoist Art.. but, so is everything else.. That being said, i’m not sure how we got so far off track here..
Tai Chi (Chuan) utilizes physical strength.. to assert otherwise would be absurd.. its focus is the quality of that physical strength and the enhancement of it through cultivation and manipulation of the basic life-force, “Chi” (here, i sense we could substitute Tao for Chi but that would open another can of worms)..
I would recommend you guys read Shambala guide to Taoism by Eva Wong. It clears up a lot about what we’re talking about here.
First there are various branches of Taoism. Some which are “Magical” and linked to Shamanic practices in pre-historic China. Other branches closely resemble the Catholic church with priestly hierarchies and a pantheon of deities. There’s a wide variety of what qualifies as Taoism.
The branch of Taoism that I’m referring to specifically is Internal Alchemical Taoism.
Taiji Chuan has connections to this branch of Taoism that deals with mental and physical training to refine the energy, health and function of the body.
This type of training involves meditation, Chi Gung postures and Taoist Calisthenics.
I believe that Chen Taiji Chuan is some form of Shaolin Kung Fu mixed with these Taoist calisthenics. So I would still classify it as a Taoist Martial art.
