Im from the Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and no where in the first 3 forms are either the ginger fist or the phoenix eye punch.
Are these attacks from the original forms or are these outside techs. that some have spinkled into “their” systems?
I dunno maybe im being taught the watered down version…
No, nothing “watered down.” 
I think they were Fong Sifu’s “add ons” to the Yip Man system. I think the frequent phoenix eye fists in the Mei Gei Wong system were likely “add ons” to the Yuen Kay Shan system. But if I do recall, one of Yip Man’s early Foshan students (Luen Gai) also has several phoenix eye fists in his forms. Different lineages just have different things they emphasize. But the fact remains that the phoenix eye strike is a pretty common technique in some systems of Wing Chun. Don’t think of it as exclusive to Bak Mei or Southern Mantis! 
IMHO, I don’t find the ginger fist to be nearly as common, nor nearly as useful.
Keith
Augustine Fong & the Phoenix eye and the ginger fist
Sifu Fong always has had the phoenix eye and the ginger fist in his instruction on the mook jong and biu jee. His usage flows from wing chun structure and dynamics. But knowing the motions of the forms and understanding them and developing the necessary coordination and skills and knowledge of the open lines and having the timing and the coordination to use them effectively are quite different things.
When learned well- both fists can be used ina wide variety of ways. They dont need to be used where a regular punch of palm will do. Sharp biu jee level chi sao skills help immensely in smooth usage of both fists.
As has been noted several times Ip Man showed Lun Cai (sp?)in Fatshan the usage of the phoenix eye.
There is no watering down of wing chun imvolved.
Southern mantis -of Gin Foon Mak also has those two fists but the structures and dynamics of SM are different from wing chun.
Interesting. I too am from Yip Man/Moy Yat lineage and we use the ginger fist in Biu Jee. Go figure..
Matrix
What part of the form? And just so I understand what a phoenix eye punch is:
A punch with the index or pointer finger’s knuckle flexed out more than the other three knuckles, right?
Is this punch left up to ones own interpretations of a wing chun punch with in the form(s), or is it clearly demoed?
Ginger fist.
New to me. I was thinking of how this strike might me used and the only plausable way I can see it used is if one has ones left or right arm in the high fauk sau position and wanted to immediately strike the face without any transition.
Or perhaps huen an indoor tan sau-to ginger fist…but how can this type of attack be more effective or powerful than a palm strike?
Please explain.
And please feel free to correct my interpritations…
Airdrawn’, I did not mentionthe Pheonix-Eye, but that can really be added anywhere a punch or any ‘da’ hand is used. As to the knuckle used, I believe it is the next knuckle down, not the index finger.
The ginger fist is seen in Biu Jee in the section after the three Biu Sau’s. We place both hands in front of our chest and throw the hands forward with long-arm energy, then swing both arms to one side and return to the centerline with a ginger fist. Ginger fist can be quite effective at attacking the opponents arms. If done well, it can have a nice numbing effect. Of course, like all weapons, it’s use can be modified to suit the individual.
I’m not qualitfied to correct your interpretations, but I am happy to share some of my own.
Peace
Joy,
I believe that he was referring to the possibilty that his version might be watered down. Not yours. I would hazard a guess that neither one is water-down. They are merely different.
But some lineages do perform a “snap cut” with the knifes
Mine doesn’t, though I think I did allude to the possibility you mentioned in my post.
How do you condition a finger?
Try rock climbing sometime. Your fingers and related muscles and joints WILL get conditioned, whether you want them to or not.
What about all those KF movies with guys thrusting their hands into woks full of heated gravel? They weren’t digging for buried treasure.
A “one finger” lift used to be a staple of old-time circus strongmen. There are lots of web pages related to grip training and finger strength.
You’re strengthening the connective tissue and tendons around the joints of the index finger. William Cheung advocates pushups on one phoenix knuckle and the palm of the other hand, first against a wall, then on the floor, working towards pushups on both phoenix knuckles. He also talked about the deal where you “drill” holes in an adobe brick using a moistened finger.
There is no need to try and build up callouses over the joint, because the phoenix eye fist is used against soft targets.
I never said there was, but, according to William Cheung, a callouse will develop from the above training, though that is a byproduct, not its primary purpose.
I’m just relating what I have been told. I am sceptical about many things in TCMA and TCM. For further argument, please email William Cheung direct.
I personally can’t see such development as an effective use of limited training time. If I wanted to cause the sort of damage the phoenix eye is supposed to cause, I’d rather use some sort of yawara type implement, or run the guy over with my car (or better yet, someone else’s car). You’re not an ape, use a tool.
As someone else said, you’re just as likely to damage yourself as the other unless you work these hand formations really hard, and I question the ROI thereof.
As to the knuckle used, I believe it is the next knuckle down, not the index finger.
In Xingyi and other styles where I have seen the phoenix eye, the second knuckle of the index finger is used to strike.
The name “phoenix eye”, I was told,comes about because when you look downward at the vertical PE fist, the folds of the fingers and skin around them resemble an eye. This doesn’t happen with other hand formations.
For certain targets, other surfaces of the hand can strike as well, e’g to the throat - the index second knuckle goes in the “hole”, the bottom three first knuckles impact the top of the sternum behind it. Once again, that’s what I was told, not necessarily something I regard as a tip top idea.
I practice a dragon style form where the second knuckle of the middle finger is used as a striking point, but that was never referred to as a phoenix eye.
In Yik Kam linage slt, there are 4 basic tools type, Namely:
open up PALM, close down HAND, lift up FINGER, and Stacking Punch. Stacking Punch is Pheonix eye.
This pheonix eye can link to Emei 12 zhuang.
In Emei 12 zhuang, Pheonix eye hand type is also a transformation of the Sun and Moon latch…etc
Where the sun and moon latch is a technics the Yik Kam lineage applied or transform while doing huen sau or lap sau…
IMHHO
Where to use it ?
Just in realtion to another post, i wanted to discuss different uses from the people posting here.
As already stated, i only have the Ginger punch and not the phoenix eye punch so ill comment on that.
My ginger punch connects with the 2nd knuckle of each finger and does not connect with the palm, although the palm is a nice follow up given the chance.
I only use such an attack on soft areas of the body. When it comes to timing i mainly use it from an indoor posiotion and aim it for under the chin area in the soft tissue.
It is very useful when you have - say a bridge on your arm such as, just a hand or a vt action like Fook Sao/Jut Sao etc to rotate your elbow in and up with the wrist following in a twisting motion to drill into the chin, letting the opponents hand fall to the outside.
This is a good attack when used with the right timing, and the elbow power as well as twisting effect of the wrist combined with horse power can injure quite badly.
The main reason i use it in such a position is because of the short sharp movement needed does not give away intent nor give warning for a defence against it.
Also if i step foward with a punch and my opponent steps to the side staying on my inside (moving to my outside would warrent a different action)
i can change my fist to a Ginger punch and whip it in towards the chin in a straight line using body and elbow power. (this can obviously be done with a normal punch too.
Wrist power is less present in this use but still there.
This is just an explanation of two ways i use it. (from Chum Kill )
How about you guys - Im curious about timing and use ?
And what forces are at work, inch / elbow etc.
Ok, but that action is a wan laup sau followed by a punch to the mid section(as I was taught). That strike can also be a chop or open plam strike to the mid section, chest or face.
If that indeed is what is considered the ginger fist then it is the first time I have heard of anyone reffer to it as such.
Also, by the way Liddel describes his ginger fist it sounds like it more resembles the swiping strike found in a panther or tiger style, but instead of a swiping motion the second set of knuckles are used as the contact point and the motion used is such as to where the knuckles are being driving into a soft area.
By the sounds of ot…
Airdrawndagger wrote
“Also, by the way Liddel describes his ginger fist it sounds like it more resembles the swiping strike found in a panther or tiger style, but instead of a swiping motion the second set of knuckles are used as the contact point and the motion used is such as to where the knuckles are being driving into a soft area.”
You are correct.
Phoenix eye to me is a fist with one knuckle sticking out at the top.
I dont have it in my form (Sifu Lok Lineage)
Ginger punch - Close your fingers in at the second knucle, palm remains flat.
Resembles tiger claw but we have an angle at the wrist which varies from 15 degrees to 90. (2nd and 3rd forms)
Just to clarify ( because this is what i wanted to explore in conversation)
the action can not only swipe as you mention but it drives , twists , and bends making it a very sharp attack.
Matrix wrote
“but how can this type of attack be more effective or powerful than a palm strike?”
Its all down to the target area, try to palm under the chin, now you may get a good hit nice and flush…
Head -
use the ginger punch and it is more sharp because it goes into the crevas under your chin for deeper penetration. Try it feel the difference.
Body -
I was taught that if used on the torso, the knuckles fit between your ribs comfortably letting the energy go deeper inside you having greater effect than your normal palm.
But to some apples and pears, its all in the user
Our interpretation of the Biu Jee is to use it when not only is your Centreline off of your opponents centreline, but your arms are in various positions too. We feel that the Biu Jee accounts for all hand postions where your centreline/motherline is not pointing in the right direction. We use the Ginger Fist to attack the kidney while returning to the centreline.
Here is a video of the Biu Jee by one of Sunny Tang’s students whom resides in Calgary, Alberta:
http://www.vingtsun.ca/vingtsun/forms/bj/index.html
All the best,
Kenton Sefcik
Hey Andrew!
Try rock climbing sometime. Your fingers and related muscles and joints WILL get conditioned, whether you want them to or not.
What about all those KF movies with guys thrusting their hands into woks full of heated gravel? They weren’t digging for buried treasure.
A “one finger” lift used to be a staple of old-time circus strongmen. There are lots of web pages related to grip training and finger strength.
—Ok, you’ve got me there! But we are talking about a knuckle strike, not a grab.
I personally can’t see such development as an effective use of limited training time. If I wanted to cause the sort of damage the phoenix eye is supposed to cause, I’d rather use some sort of yawara type implement, or run the guy over with my car (or better yet, someone else’s car). You’re not an ape, use a tool.
—We agree on that! But I do think the phoenix eye strike is very useful in close, to soft targets, using “short power.” Since you are contacting with one knuckle rather than the whole fist, it concentrates the force of the strike into the target. Hence it makes good use of the close in “short power.”
As someone else said, you’re just as likely to damage yourself as the other unless you work these hand formations really hard, and I question the ROI thereof.
—I don’t work all these conditioning drills, and I don’t feel like I would damage myself. 
But I think you are more likely to damage yourself than the opponent if you use this strike inappropriately.
In Xingyi and other styles where I have seen the phoenix eye, the second knuckle of the index finger is used to strike.
—I agree.
The name “phoenix eye”, I was told,comes about because when you look downward at the vertical PE fist, the folds of the fingers and skin around them resemble an eye. This doesn’t happen with other hand formations.
—I hadn’t heard that before. Thanks for the info.
I practice a dragon style form where the second knuckle of the middle finger is used as a striking point, but that was never referred to as a phoenix eye.
—Again, I agree. That is not the phoenix eye fist. I have heard it referred to as the “Dragon’s Head fist.”
Keith
Hi all,
At a seminar years ago, Sifu Ip Chun said his father took it out of the system as it ws too dangerous, but he didnt go into any detail so i’m wondering whether it was a throw away answer:confused:
Point-striking is near on impossible in a real-life conflict anyway. The average fight is extremely spontaneous and over before you know it. Your reaction, timing, footwork and skill will see you through. If you manage to hit a series of ‘dim mak’ points in the destruction of your opponent then let me know, as i will quite happily learn from you !!!
Stu:)
Yes, Liddel’s description sounds about right to me, and that is the action we use in the section of Biu Jee that I was referring to. We don’t do a lap sau, or chop or open palm strike, but hey… it’s just a form. 
No takers ???
I dare not assume no one has used the Ginger punch in combat or in practice.
so again -
How about you guys - Im curious about timing and use ?
And what forces are at work ?
I mentioned two ways i use it. These are formal uses derived from the form. Simple and obvious.
How about someone elses experience ?
Sounds like you are using the “point” of the knuckles as a striking surface…which would essentially make it a “leopard’s paw” punch. I learned it as using the flat surface of the fingers on the palm side of the fist rather than the “point” of the knuckles to strike with a “rapping” motion using a strong wrist snap. Its almost like striking with a “Jao Sau” or “running hand”, but rather than using the palm, you use the fist. The most obvious application to me, is when you are in close and have opened the opponent up the middle with a tan sau. Then, rather than withdrawing to strike with the tan sau arm, you simply pivot and strike inward to his temple with the ginger fist. As I said before, personally I don’t find it to be that important of a strike. I find the phoenix eye strike far more useful.
And again to clarify as I stated in my previous post…the strike in the Chum Kiu form that some of you seem to be describing is not the ginger fist, its the “drilling punch.” The ginger fist (at least as Fong sifu teaches it) is found in the Biu Gee form…both arms shoot out to front with a grabbing motion, pivot to the side keeping elbows locked, pivot back to center pulling one arm back to beside the chest while the other performs the ginger fist striking inward to the centerline, strike forward with an inverted palm, withdraw to beside the chest.
Keith
Yes.
That is what me and Matrix are talking about, however my view of that action is a won lap or double grab motion. Both hands shoot out and grab the left arm and pull them out of position and attack with the punch back to center which in this case would be a strike to the mid section. First to the left side, then to the right. This punch is just that a punch with a vairation of the hand formation. This is because it is the fastest punch formation you can do when you are off centerline and wish to strike back at your opponent. That strike can also be a palm strike or chop to the head, chest, or abdomin.
Also, with the introduction to such a punch, it is now clear that you use your whole body to strike back at the centerline, kind of like a hook punch found in boxing(similar in that you use your body in a twisting motion).
I work that punch all the time on the heavy bag and let me tell you it is VERY powerful, more powerful than the straight punch and perhaps just as powerful as the drilling punch when performed properly because of the fact that you use a twisting motion with the punch.
I understand that we seem to have been taught slight variations of that part in the form (and im sure others parts as well) and that is fine and to be expected, but it is very interesting to hear of these variations and describe our different POVs.
Great disscussions BTW.
Liddel,
I have not had the opportunity to use your variation of the ginger fist at all, let alone durring sparring or actual combat!
The ginger fist works very well when you have a guy in your guard on the groung and are trying to dig that hand under their armpit to set up the cutting armbar, or get them to move their arm to the centre to allow you to set up a sweep.