In the CLF 10 elements/10 seeds, I’m curious as to why Pek Choy isn’t part of the 10. I know Jong and pow are different techniques, but the energy path for both is upward, I could see one being a derivative of the other. To me, it’d make sense to have pek choy, since its line of energy is different from the others (it’s also just a good one to hit pads with).
I have noticed that the 10 elements/seeds have variation from school to school. Are there schools that have Pek Choy as one of the 10.
What is Pek Chui? We have a move called Seung Pak. But I’ve never seen or don’t know the name of a move called Pak Chui by itself.
Also, what is Pow Chui? Is that the water casting fist? What is the difference between Pow and Jong? I know pow means “thrust up.” Jong means “dash against.” Right? I’ve noticed that each branch uses slightly different terminology so this can be very confusing.
Pek Choy I always knew to be a hammerfist strike - it’s usually downwards, although in Tat Mau’s forms, he calls the inward forearm moving hammer strikes as “Chin Ji Pek Choy” (usually done right before Biu Jong movements). I’ve heard him describe a downward hammerfist strike as both Pek Choy and Paw Choy, I think.
Pow Choy I learned as a long, swinging uppercut, and (Fan) Jong was a shorter upward power shot, that goes almost straight upwards.
Pek Choy - Axe Fist and Chin Tse Choy are the same thing, some use different names they both travel in somewhat of a diagonal plane. In Tai Sing Pek Kwar the pek choy is done with more of an extended arm similar to a sow choy whereas in CLF we bend the arm first then shoot it out.
Paw Choy is a vertical hammer fist coming from high to low.
Fan Jong and Pow Choy are also interchangeable names but as 123 said pow choy can have a longer path.
Fu-Pow is our lineage pow choy is seen at the end of Plum Flower Gwa Pow Gwa Sow.
I have always heard paw choy for the vertical hammer fist and chin tse choy for the cross hammer fist. Pek choy isn’t really used in our lineage by name only told as “this is another name for chin tse choy”.
As far as the 10 seeds thing, Lee Koon Hung never really spoke of the “10 seeds” so to speak. He taught us all the various techiques and their importance. However within our lineage it is a widely seen technique in our forms.
I really don’t care much about 10 seeds since there are more than 10 techniques in the system. Depending on who you talk to these can vary to some degree anyhow. Whats important is knowing the techniques and how to use them.
I really like the concept of the 10 elements. I was taught it more from “principles” perspective, meaning that these 10 are the “alphabet” of CLF- and the other techniques are a variation/derivative of the 10.
It gives the art a “core”. I have no idea of the history of how the conecpt of the 10 elements/seed came about. I doubt if Chan Heung or Jeong Yim said, “Here’s the 10 Seeds, y’all!” My feeling is that it is a farily recent concept started by masters who’ve, through their own practice and application of the art, realized that there is a core to CLF, and these 10 are it.
Anybody know the history of how their 10 Elements/Seeds came about?
Fan Jong and Pow Choy are also interchangeable names but as 123 said pow choy can have a longer path.
But in our lineage Faan Jong and Pow Chui are different techniques. Pow Chui (as in gwa pow gwa sow) is a upward back fist. Faan Jong is a short uppercut. So how can they be the same thing?
Also, what does Seung Pak mean? Double _____? Is pak short for something?
BTW, just started learning Ba Gua Sam. I can tell with in the first couple movements that this is an awesome form. Do you know this form? Also, does our lineage have a mui fah ba gua sam? I noticed Sifu Michael teaches this one.
Tibetan Hop-Gar/Lama/White Crane have 8-seeds, both in fists, kicks, stances, footwork patterns, hands (palms) and Jows (claws).
Pek-Choi (Axe Cut) is a seed in my lineage (Wong-Hon-Wing). The fist is held as in a Ginger-Fist/ Leopard Fist/Charp-Choi, impact with the hypothenar eminence (plamar edge).
Delivery in seed form is in an ‘x’ pattern - bisecting the target - passing thru the neck and with ‘intent’ down to the opposite hip.
The return stroke follows the same path.
In wider application it can be applied as a vertical or a horizontal strike. It is usual to twist on the stance (either bow or cat). Delivery can be from an engaged bridge position or blindsighted by striking overhead from the rear hand.
The Hop-Gar seeds interchange ‘in-flight’ if required.
I mention the above on a CLF thread as there may be overlaps in structure and application, and to share information.
i think choy lay fut chin ji choy means " number 1000 strike " because follow the same figure that the chinese character .
pek choy axe or hammerfist is a common name in most systems , maybe the choy lay fut masters use that name also because is a most common name in kung fu .
I know that they are different techniques in our lineage but the name really refers more to the trajectory of the punch not so much the hand position. Maybe its just our way of differentiating the two.
As far as Pak Kwa Sum Kuen goes yes I know it. I think the form is ok to be honest, nothing special. We also have Moi Fa Pak Kwa Kuen (no Sum in name) although I didn’t learn that one. I think Joe probably has by now. I have seen the form and have it on tape and again its ok, typical clf kind of a mixture of different forms more or less but it does have a poon kiu cum jeurng with a left chop choy. There are 9 pak kwa forms in clf, one for each of the 8 directions and the Pak Kwa Sum as the center or heart. Our lineage only has the 2 mentioned.
Peace.
P.S. Sorry I forgot, sheung pak is the double hand downward slapping block seen in Ng Ying Kuen just before Sheung Biu (Double Snake Strike).
The first could be sheung pow jahng (double upward elbow). The two in the middle I honestly don’t know never heard Lee Koon Hung or Li Siu Hung ever say anything. Likely because they are not major techniques.
As far as favorite forms go I am a long weapon guy with staff and spear being my favorites. I love Dai Hung Kay Dan Tow Kwun and Sheung Garp Dan Kwun.
As far as hand forms go I like Ping Kuen and Fu Pow Kuen the most followed closely by Ping Chan Kuen and Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen. I used to really performing Hok Ying Kuen but as I have gotten older I like the pillar type forms more.
Its not that I dislike Pak Kwa Sum its just that it doesn’t really utilize the 8 directions of the Pak Kwa circle. Its another form utilizing some different combos but overall I don’t like the flow that much.
With me feel and flow are real important. Take for example the Fu Ying Kuen (Tiger Form) to me this form does not have a very good flow and therefore I really don’t like it much.
Pek Choy is in DFW’s 10 seeds, although I must say that in the forms it’s usually represented as Chin Ji.
The seed Jong covers both Jong and Pow Choy. Jong is usually a shorter “body rip” kind of move whereas Pow Choy is more of a circular uppercut. It can be represented by an uppercut, a rising leopard fist or by an upswinging backfist. Don’t forget that Chop Choy covers about 8 different techniques.
My favourite CLF form is Fut Jeung.
The second seed mentioned, “Na” is not a shooting arm bridge, they got it mixed up with “Chuin Kiu”. “Chuin Na” usually go together but they are different techniques.
The ten seeds or elements was first mentioned in a magazine on CLF published by “Mo Way” back in the early 70s in Hong Kong. It seem like a good idea at the time.
Hi Joseph,
Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing Sifu Ng saying “Chuin Kiu” as he was talking through techniques. What Chuin Kiu looked like to me was your regular Chuin Na technique immediately followed by a Poon Kiu, done with the same hand that did the Chuin.
But maybe I am understanding Chuin Kiu inaccurately, and please correct me if I am.
Interestingly enough, in Tat Mau Wong’s 10 Elements, it is the same as the Ng Family’s with one difference. He doesn’t list Chuin Na, he lists Chum Kiu. Is this the same as what you are referring to as Chuin Kiu? I’m guessing not, b/c in that lineage Chum Kiu is a downward crane arm type of technique, but doesn’t it mean “Bridging the gap”?
What Sifu Ng showed in the photo next to “NA” was Chuin Kiu with Bil Ji and he also described clearly in the text what a Chuin Kiu is and does, but he is not describing or showing a Na, whereas Chum Kiu is to block downward with the forearm as you mentioned. The second photo from the top of this page showed a Chum Kiu with Dil Ma and the last photo showed a static version of Chuin in Ji Ng Ma:
There are all sorts of Sou Fa (hand techniques), Jeurn Fa (palm strikes), Kiu Fa (bridge or forearm techneques), Jow Fa (Claws), Chui Fa (fist strikes), Jarn Fa (elbows), Sun Fa (body movement), Ma Fa (stance), Tou Fa and Gerng Fa (footwork and kicking) in CLF and the ten seeds, no matter how we choose them, are not adaquate enough to represent the full range.
May be we should use Sou, Jeurn, Kiu, Jow, Chui, Jarn, Sun, Ma, Tou and Gerng as the ten seeds/elements instead! It is another way of saying we are using everything we got as a weapon.
