Pak Sau Alternatives?

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074193]“(Pak) - slap” has no intention to “(Nian) - sticky” and “(Sui) - follow”. This will make you hard to "screw up your opponent’s structure and balance " a little bit hard to achieve.[/QUOTE]

It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?

Also, see my other thread on What the heck is these stuffs. if the structure, momentum…etc is not clearly understood, what is one doing?

How is Pak which is using to slap cancel the force vector screw up your opponent’s structure? similar to can one slap at a door and screw up the building?

Speak about balance, balance means the balance of momentum, so as an example one can side slap or tap litely on the front wheel of a in coming bicycle and cause the bicycle out of control and fall. by using its own momentum to screw up itself.

For me, one needs to know what one is doing.

Wants to break a structure, you need a hammer. …
Want to cancel the force in a certain way, use pak sau.
want to totally screw up an incoming bicycle’s momentum pak sau works too.

one just needs to know what one intended todo and use the proper tool.

and often, we dont want to break the structure when things already in motion, we just screw up the momentum in the most easi way. why bother to use the big hammer with the entire body behind it then using his own momentum to screw himself up? can pak da do that?

Sure, just pak away the incoming sharp high intensity momentum vectors so that one doesnt take the hit, and let the whole opponent structure crush into your punch which is waiting to make use of his momentum to break its own structure. just make sure you have a solid body structure to drive into his structure using his own momentum.

The Xing Yi called this Half step Peng Chuan beat the world. it is about using the incoming momentum to destroy its own structure.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074195]It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?[/QUOTE]

I believe this thread is for Pak Sau “Alternatives”. John did say, “I rather use other methods”. That’s why we are discussing what other alternatives are available here.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074198]I believe this thread is for Pak Sau “Alternatives”. John did say, “I rather use other methods”. That’s why we are discussing what other alternatives are available here.[/QUOTE]

sure, and how is one suppose to know what is the Pak Sau alternative without one is clear on what is a Pak sau and what is it do?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074199]sure, and how is one suppose to know what is the Pak Sau alternative without one is clear on what is a Pak sau and what is it do?[/QUOTE]

Here is my definition of (Pak),

“By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent’s arm away. Your hand and your opponent’s arm are no longer connected after that”.

What will be yours?

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074200]Here is my definition of (Pak),

“By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent’s arm away. Your hand and your opponent’s arm are no longer connected after that”.

What will be yours?[/QUOTE]

Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?

Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?

[QUOTE=YungChun;1074201]Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?[/QUOTE]
Here are 3 A’s for your 3 Q’s:

  • I will use Pak to connect my hand on my opponent’s elbow joint (build an arm bridge). I then push his leading arm across his body to jam his back arm (this will disable his back arm). Since my opponent’s arms are no long a threaten to me at that moment, I can attack.
  • If my opponent resists my arm pushing, I’ll borrow his force and pull his arm toward me, and
  • Use my other arm and legs to do whatever that I plan to do (with that “leading arm control”, there will be endless moves that I can do).

[QUOTE=YungChun;1074201]Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?[/QUOTE]
I will use Tan Sau for pre-contact on my opponent’s fore-arm, and Pak Sau to make contact on his elbow joint. The elbow joint control (made by my Pak Sau) is what I’m truly looking for. The fore-arm contact point (made by my Tan Sau) will have less value to me. If I can control my opponent’s elbow joint, I have controled his whole arm.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074195]It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?

Also, see my other thread on What the heck is these stuffs. if the structure, momentum…etc is not clearly understood, what is one doing?

How is Pak which is using to slap cancel the force vector screw up your opponent’s structure? similar to can one slap at a door and screw up the building?

Speak about balance, balance means the balance of momentum, so as an example one can side slap or tap litely on the front wheel of a in coming bicycle and cause the bicycle out of control and fall. by using its own momentum to screw up itself.

For me, one needs to know what one is doing.

Wants to break a structure, you need a hammer. …
Want to cancel the force in a certain way, use pak sau.
want to totally screw up an incoming bicycle’s momentum pak sau works too.

one just needs to know what one intended todo and use the proper tool.

and often, we dont want to break the structure when things already in motion, we just screw up the momentum in the most easi way. why bother to use the big hammer with the entire body behind it then using his own momentum to screw himself up? can pak da do that?

Sure, just pak away the incoming sharp high intensity momentum vectors so that one doesnt take the hit, and let the whole opponent structure crush into your punch which is waiting to make use of his momentum to break its own structure. just make sure you have a solid body structure to drive into his structure using his own momentum.

The Xing Yi called this Half step Peng Chuan beat the world. it is about using the incoming momentum to destroy its own structure.[/QUOTE]

And what if he doesnt have this "momuntum " coming in???
Or what if he is on the retreat and you want to take the fight to him, and he’s firing of punches as he’s moving backwards??

Are you saying pak is not applicable?

[QUOTE=YungChun;1074201]Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?

Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?[/QUOTE]

Are we only discussing WC perspective, or WC version of “pak sao?”

If so then I will not derail the thread.

[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1074209]Are we only discussing WC perspective, or WC version of “pak sao?”

If so then I will not derail the thread.[/QUOTE]
The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

  • Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch),
  • Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move),
  • Longfist (Tantui open move),
  • Baji (groin protection posture),
  • White Ape (Wu Song Yuan Yan Tui),
  • SC (form #1 single Gou Gua),

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074229]The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

  • Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch).
  • Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move).
  • Longfist (Tantui open move).
  • SC (1st form single Gou Gua).
  • …[/QUOTE]

Id say the Pak is a general move in all styles… western or eastern

[QUOTE=GlennR;1074232]Id say the Pak is a general move in all styles… western or eastern[/QUOTE]

Agreed .

[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1074234]Agreed .[/QUOTE]
+1

We can also see Pak is used at the following MT clip (blocking techniques at 45.50).

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEzMDg0NjA0.html

IMO, it’ more fun to look at this “principle” at the global view instead of just the local view.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074200]Here is my definition of (Pak),

“By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent’s arm away. Your hand and your opponent’s arm are no longer connected after that”.

What will be yours?[/QUOTE]

I could roll with that explanation, although I wouldn’t use the word “push” because that imho is not what paksau is doing. Normally, daapsau follows paksau, maintaining that stickiness we all love about Wing Chun, but its not always needed imo.

Paksau is delivering a “short sharp shock” to anything it meets.

The follow-up is down to you and your intention, but basically the force of the slap should be directed to cause body misalignment, not just slapping attacks away. Once drilled correctly the paksau will cause clotting/bruising (especially on the inside/softer parts of the body) and the shock is normally enough for you to continue how you please.

I think many schools teach this at the very beginning as an interaction between forearm and palm, fistwork against paksau. A good start point and exercise to gently condition the forearm for the puncher and the palm for the pak-er!

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074229]The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

  • Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch),
  • Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move),
  • Longfist (Tantui open move),
  • Baji (groin protection posture),
  • White Ape (Wu Song Yuan Yan Tui),
  • SC (form #1 single Gou Gua),
  • …[/QUOTE]

What’s the point— everyone has palms. The devil is in the details.
The details of wing chun’s structural development and dynamics is different from
taiji, mantis etc.

Generalizing about TCMA is not enough to understand wing chun IMO.

Joy Chaudhuri

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074172]Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent’s straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent’s punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:

  • you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent’s arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
  • you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.[/QUOTE]I’m pretty sure no-one is proposing that the pak comes in at 90-degrees to the opponent - i.e. coming across the body. If the pak is fired towards the opponent’s centre I would think that it would comfortably be 30-45 degrees to the line “connecting” both bodies.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074202]I will use Tan Sau for pre-contact on my opponent’s fore-arm, and Pak Sau to make contact on his elbow joint. The elbow joint control (made by my Pak Sau) is what I’m truly looking for. The fore-arm contact point (made by my Tan Sau) will have less value to me. If I can control my opponent’s elbow joint, I have controled his whole arm.[/QUOTE]Sounds a lot like what Alan Orr demonstrates on his youtube pak sau video. Though he doesn’t use tan sau for pre-contact.

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1074250]Generalizing about TCMA is not enough to understand wing chun IMO.[/QUOTE]

Generalizing can help us to understand MA (Chinese or foreign) in general. The day that christian respect other religions (or the other way around), the day that our world will be a much more peaceful place to live. That’s why I prefer to see the similiarity than the difference.

If our interest is “combat”, style should not be our boundary IMO. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074306]
If our interest is “combat”, style should not be our boundary IMO. :)[/QUOTE]


Combat style??? You bring yourself to combat.

joy chaudhuri

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1074356]-------------------------------------------------------------
Combat style??? You bring yourself to combat.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

I believe he said “…combat, style..”

[QUOTE=GlennR;1074359]I believe he said “…combat, style..”[/QUOTE]

GlennR-Sorry,you are right-there is a comma after combat.

Revised- there is not just one style for combat. My preference is wing chun and this is a wing chun forum.There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison.

joy chaudhuri

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1074368]-----------------------------------------------------------
GlennR-Sorry,you are right-there is a comma after combat.

Revised- there is not just one style for combat. My preference is wing chun and this is a wing chun forum.There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison.

joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

No problem Joy.

But il disagree with you to a degree with “There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison.”
Your opponent doesnt always let this be the case.
GlennR