Your (Pak Sau) may help your opponent to change his straight punch into a hook punch.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074148]Your (Pak Sau) may help your opponent to change his straight punch into a hook punch.[/QUOTE]
Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?
IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. 
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1074149]Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?
IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)[/QUOTE]
Sometime
- the distance may be too far, or
- your timing may be a bit off,
that your Pak Sau won’t be able to reach to your opponent’s elbow but only reach to his fore-arm instead.
Also your opponent’s straight punch may be just a “set up” and the moment that you have “intention” to apply your Pak Sau (your Pak Sau may not even touch his arm yet), his arm already spin and changed into a hook punch (because his hook punch path is now “clear”).
Since Pak Sau will give your opponent’s arm too much freedom, a Fuk Sau that can “sticky” on his arm may be better. It will be even better if you can grab and hold on his arm at his elbow joint.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1074149]Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?
(((A good pak sao should bot allow the turning into a hook. It’s in the details..)))Joy
IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)[/QUOTE]
((A different POV—that is one of the problems I saw in John’s visual. .. pak saoing at the elbow…
by that time you can be hit))
Joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1074155]((A different POV—that is one of the problems I saw in John’s visual. .. pak saoing at the elbow…
by that time you can be hit))
Joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Hi Joy,
I don’t like getting hit, messes up my gorgeous looks 
When applying a Pak I like to get off the line so even if I miss the Pak, there is also the chance that they will miss the punch. Of course, I also move in when doing the Pak and I have the rear hand up as a secondary line of defense as well. Again, much easier to write than to pull off in a real scenerio against someone skilled at boxing.
I kind of view the Pak as an obstruction, you put it out there on the line and do not reach for the incoming punch. If the punch crosses the line and makes contact, then the Pak may start closer to the wrist, but the opponents force will continue to drive forward and will be forced off the line, towards the opposite shoulder, by the Pak and your own elbow energy. As a result the Pak should end up at or beyond the opponents elbow. However, you do not press the Pak to the side, rather your energy should go forward, towards the opponent. I am not sure if I explained that properly but hope it makes a little bit of sense.
So, do you think the Pak should be done before the elbow? I agree that it is hard to apply on a fast moving arm. Also hard to apply against a jab or other type of punch which is trained to retract almost as fast as it goes out.
For the record, there are other things I prefer to a Pak, I like a Lan Sau and Wu Sau combination too. I once trained with a semi-pro boxer when attending the PA State Police Academy. This guy was one of our instructors and was huge. I honestly think he could have supported my entire body wieght on his outstretched arm. Needless to say, Pak did not work well against him and required some modification on my part. I got hit a few times training with him, but it helped me learn :o
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1074156]When applying a Pak I like to get off the line so even if I miss the Pak, there is also the chance that they will miss the punch. [/QUOTE]
Your (general YOU) side step may just run into your opponent’s hook punch that just changed from his straight punch.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1074156]So, do you think the Pak should be done before the elbow? [/QUOTE]
That will be even worse. You (again general YOU here) may eat your opponent’s elbow. Your Pak just help your opponent to bend his arm. I think a Tan Sau (on the forearm) followed by a Fu Sau (on the elbow joint) will be much better.
A horizonal force vector such as Pak Sau can help your opponent to change the direction of his force vector (such as a straight punch into a hook punch). That’s the problem we are discussing here. If you can’t control your opponent’s punching arm, your Pak Sau may just give yourself more problem than solution.
[QUOTE=Sihing73;1074149]Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?
IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)[/QUOTE]
pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis…IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing…the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1074168]pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis…IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing…the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.[/QUOTE]
One thing I’ve experienced over the years, meeting people coming in to try a class, is when they punch, they stiffin up the whole arm (something we as VT practitioners try not to do), when this happens, when you pak close to their wrist it moves them offline and closes off their facing. People don’t know how to ease their tension, and seperate the upper and lower arm, and when this is the case it is good for us. Even people trained in other MA have this problem, in a non stressed environment. It’s one of the hardest bad habits they have to let go when learning VT IMO.
In a fight anything can happen, nothing is guarantee’d except that you will probably take a shot or two, but VT is very good at teaching us to eat up space and spring forward into our opponents Center Axis, which makes it hard for them to out hook us and flank us with attacks, unless you stay in boxing range and trade (like some advocate), you can avoid this counter to your pak.
In the end if comes down to your skills vs his skills, if his are better your in for a tough night:eek:
James
iMHO,
It goes back to what is a Pak Sau suppose to do? It seems that different people has different definition of Pak sau.
So, what is a Pak sau?
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074170]iMHO,
It goes back to what is a Pak Sau suppose to do? It seems that different people has different definition of Pak sau.
So, what is a Pak sau?[/QUOTE]
Yep, il agree with you here Hendrick
Some view it as a slap away of a punch at the fist, right up to connecting at the upper arm compromising the opponents structure
To be honest, im thiniking its just a tool and that all the explanations on the thread so far have merit
Its a bit like saying there is only one type of jab.
Theres heavy jabs, lighter jabs and so on
I think its all about the opponent and what you have to deal with at the time
GlennR
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074170]what is a Pak sau?[/QUOTE]
The problem is the word (Pak) that “after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent’s arm”. You will have no control where your opponent’s arm will go after that. It’s like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA “(Nian) - sticky” principle.
Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent’s straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent’s punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:
- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent’s arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.
In TCMA, it’s called “(Gua) - comb the hair”.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1074171]Yep, il agree with you here Hendrick
Some view it as a slap away of a punch at the fist, right up to connecting at the upper arm compromising the opponents structure
To be honest, im thiniking its just a tool and that all the explanations on the thread so far have merit
Its a bit like saying there is only one type of jab.
Theres heavy jabs, lighter jabs and so on
I think its all about the opponent and what you have to deal with at the time
GlennR[/QUOTE]
I agree with Glenn. A Pak Sau is just a “shape” and can be applied in several ways.
When I teach pak initially to new people, I teach them to slap the partners forearm into their centers, in this way the partner is feeling the pressure coming back into them. Part of this training is to teach the person aim, how do I aim my force back into the other person so it can effect them (this also trains the persons structure, as they have to accept the force coming back into them as well, expanding/compressing spring idea here..). That’s one purpose and a basic one. It also teaches an outside bridge situation, a clearing action as well, and to do it with unity , as Kev G already explained here, “Pak starts from the body [handle of the whip] and the elbow is the beginning of the whip, the hand the tip, we whip the point to the centerline aka pak sao contact or not we stay on the line to punch from…” with minimal force as to not lose our facing and balance, so in other words over pak’g is taken out of the picture, we stay within our frame and inline with our target.
In the end pak can be use to just parry something away, a last effort backup, to not take a full hit and evade, as is it better to maintain a VT body and take a hit or lose that frame and avoid the hit??? Don’t be a slave to the system, be it’s master…
James
[QUOTE=sihing;1074169]One thing I’ve experienced over the years, meeting people coming in to try a class, is when they punch, they stiffin up the whole arm (something we as VT practitioners try not to do), when this happens, when you pak close to their wrist it moves them offline and closes off their facing. People don’t know how to ease their tension, and seperate the upper and lower arm, and when this is the case it is good for us. Even people trained in other MA have this problem, in a non stressed environment. It’s one of the hardest bad habits they have to let go when learning VT IMO.
In a fight anything can happen, nothing is guarantee’d except that you will probably take a shot or two, but VT is very good at teaching us to eat up space and spring forward into our opponents Center Axis, which makes it hard for them to out hook us and flank us with attacks, unless you stay in boxing range and trade (like some advocate), you can avoid this counter to your pak.
In the end if comes down to your skills vs his skills, if his are better your in for a tough night:eek:
James[/QUOTE]
exactly…the dan chi-sao drill helps alleviate this early on by making the jum punch relax back to fok sao [neutral elbow] as the partners bong stays up to allow the retraction for a second , this also trains us not to make ‘false’ bridges and sense things , instead we retract and keep doing our thing…the tan also recoils back slightly after striking against the jum sao, as if retracting after hitting out. neither waiting to feel and roll with the other in a sequence that leads to chasing and waiting arms.
I try to show this rigidity by making my shoulder soft then rigid or simply removing my arm as they try to pak sao it, showing that we dont require any contact to make counteractions…and how the axis line is reached by simple parries to the wrist.
Or over use of force on the line , allowed to make the guy spin out of control enought to take advantage of openings ..
most will respond with a tensing up if you slap their arms. leading to the goal to turn them so they face 90 deg from you so their opposite arm is now totally isolated, lop is for this turning grab abd make them face left or right then shove etc…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1074168]pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis…IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing…the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.[/QUOTE]
Yes- a little past the wrist is the bridge- you can control many things from that bridge.
Takes practice.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=KPM;1074173]I agree with Glenn. A Pak Sau is just a “shape” and can be applied in several ways.[/QUOTE]
pak is an energy ;)…jum sao has pak energy, jum is a pak but with elbow energy to maintain the line as we strike iow a paking energy combined with a forward strike in 1 action, bong has pak energy, tan has pak energy striking and using the elbow to spread off the line to create the ging forceas it also strikes forwards, etc…
ging force. the elbows contain this energy as they maneuver to and from our centerlines, bong uses the upper arm to ‘slap’ left or right opening up the same lines a pak is trying to.
we are discussing pak DA…of course there are variations of pak, to angle back at 45 deg and pak to regain a tactical line on entry of the opponent.
we x the line with pak sao in the rear pak so the pak sao is by our jaw if we strike under a jabbing arm or as most guys who raise elbows up. Dangerous, but hey, we are fighting
leading front pak sao doesnt x the leading centerline while doing angling or pak da, the rear pak x’s the line to either ear/jaw . we can feed the front pak back to the rear x’ed pak position with a fixed elbow…as wu sao going back 3 times in SLT. Creating a triangulation of energy back and forth along the edges of the triangle, meeting at the point of the centerline.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074172]The problem is the word (Pak) that “after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent’s arm”. You will have no control where your opponent’s arm will go after that. It’s like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA “(Nian) - sticky” principle.
Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent’s straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent’s punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:
- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent’s arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.
In TCMA, it’s called “(Gua) - comb the hair”.[/QUOTE]
You know Chinese, so may be you could translate for every one here on what is a Pak.
take it as it is instead of making lots of different intepretation /drag into the confusion land and screw everyone up on what is it not.
For me things has evolve from a brush is a hammer and it is a long noise clamp too..
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1074172]The problem is the word (Pak) that “after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent’s arm”. You will have no control where your opponent’s arm will go after that. It’s like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA “(Nian) - sticky” principle.
Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent’s straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent’s punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:
- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent’s arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.
In TCMA, it’s called “(Gua) - comb the hair”.[/QUOTE]
In both Buk Sing and boxing/Muaythai, the “pak sao” is simply to deflect or parry your opponent’s strikes.
Use it mostly against straight punches. Against hooks it is better to use chuen sao or just cover (flower behind hair in MT) or elbow spike.
My 2 cents.
[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1074184]In both Buk Sing and boxing/Muaythai, the “pak sao” is simply to deflect or parry your opponent’s strikes.
Use it mostly against straight punches. Against hooks it is better to use chuen sao or just cover (flower behind hair in MT) or elbow spike.
Threads have a way of going off in different directions. I like to stick as close as possible to the original thrust of the thread based on John’s kind sharing. I like dealing with operational meanings not just language
(a note to Hendrik). Operationally pak is not just a technique-the energy for pak sao runs through the middle of the hand, controlled of course by the elbow. There are many applications of pak sao- it can defend, attack, break among other things.
For development- practicing the pak at the bridge can teach a person to control the others fist, elbow
or balance depending on wing chun skill development.
John’s usage was against a straight punch-the pak controlling the bridge-sleeve area- would have been better. Against a hook- a kau sau could be more relevant. I am approaching from a wing chun POV on balance and lines of attack and defense.. not buk sing or mt.
In John’s video- a double pak sao was also one of the possibilities.
I wish I had John’s video capacity but I don’t. Not much of a techie.(except in wing chun)
Cheers-
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1074182]You know Chinese, so may be you could translate for every one here on what is a Pak. [/QUOTE]
“(Pak) - slap” has no intention to “(Nian) - sticky” and “(Sui) - follow”. This will make “screw up your opponent’s structure and balance” a little bit hard to achieve. Again, when you opponent comes to you, you should hug him instead of push him away.