crumpet
LOL, good point! I shouldnt butt into bak mei politics… :eek:
He still is a nice chap! hahaha:D
Begby:
You do not study Bak Mei? But you have seen some? So that is what makes you an authority?
"I think what you’re saying could best be summarized in the immortal words of Charlie Brown’s teacher, “wonk wonkwonk wonkwonkwonk wonk”
or should I say, “wong wongwong wongwongwong wong”?
Blind since 1985, ha? Doesn’t seem like your seeing eye dog is really helping you too much. Seems more like it’s biting you - RIGHT IN THE _____!"
This is inappropriate. In public, it is impolite to insult teachers. You need to learn manners and respect as well as physical prowess. Constructive and/or skeptical critiques are one thing, but your posts are venomous. Such an attitude is not compatible with a search for truth. So, what is your agenda, Begby? Who is feeding you your information? “Who the cap fit, let them wear it.” You should recognize that quote. Also, try listening to a song called “Craven Choke Puppy.” It takes more than pot and reggae music to find righteosness, Begby. But with honesty, open mindedness, and willingness, you will find it. Just do not ever give up!
In general:
I have watched this forum for some time and even posted very occasionally. Those of you who come here regularly know we have seen all kinds of flames and discussions regarding various subjects all of which fit under one basic topic: “What is Bak Mei Kung Fu?” So, What is it? Certain patterns? Certain techniques? Certain concepts? A proper lineage? A sincere commitment to all of the above? I myself have seen 3 considerably different versions of the same pattern as performed by 3 different high level practicioners. Furthermore, all 3 practicioners have very legitimate lineage. Who is right, and who is wrong of these three? I am not arguing that anything that is claimed as Bak Mei is necessarily such. I just wanted to place some of this discussion in context.
The Power of Sudden Tremors is a Bak Mei concept. It is a measured expression of the urge to preserve one’s life under duress facilitated by a state of mental readiness, and the application of very basic physical laws. I am in the video in question. I for one did not fake my part. Crumpet said this is not a character issue. If we are talking about the mechanics of this type of jin, then Crumpet is right. If we are discussing rather or not the actions in this video are preplanned reactions by the students, then it is a character issue. It is an issue of integrity on our school’s part because anyone with integrity would not claim something that he/she knew was not true. I can not present you with a diploma from Integrity University. In order to make an informed judgement about our integrity, you would have to get to know us. For the most part, we do not care what others think about what we do. Obviously, I care enough to write a long post in response to what I view as insults to my teacher’s integrity. If we are discussing The Power of Sudden Tremors and its mechanics, even skeptically, I am into it. If you are resorting to character assasination, then you are a lonely little soldier defending a fortress of psuedo-rationality. Ultimately, such a person damages only themselves. People become this way when the search for truth and the ego clash and the ego wins. Well, my morning coffee is done, so I guess I done staring at the internut for now. Later ya’ll.
I’m sure Dr. Wong is a nice guy, but that video still looks like BOOSHEET to me.
And i don’t need to “cross hands” with anyone to say that.
But, hey that’s just my opinion, why should anyone care!
A letter to me from Dr.Wong
“Hi Don: I just wrote you a note and then went to the forum and find out 2 things. (1)The guy tried to discredit me as not a student of Ng came from the Pai-lum-White Eyebrow group. He is Mike Ducet who tries to promote his teacher as the “designated successor of Ng”. I found out from Ng’s oldest son Stephen Ng, just not too long ago that his teacher had no more than 3 yr’s training from my junior Chang Siu Man. This group is at best conmen. All the negative remarks are pushing me aside so that one day they sell tapes for monetary gain.
(2) The demonstration tape recorded an event in March 2001.
The team members included students whose ages of training ranging from 6 months to 12 years; and the woman looked not natural came from the tai-chi group as a beginner. Tai chi students don’t fall fast as she did not have sufficient training to fall like the Bai-mei group. I have not looked at Luke’s work at the website. He might confused my teacher Beng-fat with his brother Beng-lum–and this will be corrected. For copyright, Luke hesitated to release the tape for 2000 March event. I will tell him to post the group involved in the power of tremor demonstration instead of the one on the current website. If you would, present what I said here to the forum to clarify the issue. The Pai-lum group tried to discredit me will run into rock as the most important elements of the internal group all know me and always received me with warmth and respect. I don’t even need the recognition of the Mike-Ducet-Pai-lum people.
Warm regards. Dr. Wong”
LOL
:eek: Pai Lum is that pak mei kung fu or just a mixed art? Are they the canadian school?
thanks in advance.
FT:)
I have many new links up on the school site.
http://www.lungyingjingjung.com
A couple relate to “Pai Lum”. ONLY to present what they consider to be their “relation” to the system of Lung Ying. We do not believe there to be any historical, theological or technical links between the “Pai Lum” system and ours. I do not know anything about its relations with Pak Mei, aside from what Dr. Wong has just written.
I believe the site in question is:
http://www.pakmei.net/
FT, here’s the branch in your neck of the woods:
http://www.firedragon.com.au/learn/learn.html
Have fun and play nice. 
RE
tnwing & whomever is interested:
I have more MA training than is in my bio. I’m still a beginner either way. But, you don’t have to know MA to understand physics. Or even to sniff out bull. My engineering schooling and simple life experiences took care of that. The technique I saw on the video clips is bull. It’s not possible.
But, gee, it would be great if it was…
Qi, as so many westerners mis-interpret it, doesn’t exist. It’s not some force that exists only in the trained martial artist’s hands. You have to remember, the Chinese had no better understanding of science or medicine than any other people all those years ago. People used to think thunder was an angry god for pete’s sake. If somebody, through long and harsh training and practice, developed great strength and skill, they chalked it up to Qi. And why not?
But, so many of us have wanted to believe it at some point, haven’t we?
I’ve seen these demos for years. It’s always one’s own students. Never a trained opponent or even some bystander. I understand the legalities, but, honestly, never someone else? These people don’t look like they are being knocked down; they look like they are falling on their own accord. Not to mention UN-hurt. I have eyes and a brain. You even back it up by saying about the one late-falling woman, “Tai chi students don’t fall fast as she did not have sufficient training to fall like the Bai-mei group”. Exactly. Trained to fall fast. Why not resist this “tremor”?
But it sure gets the gullible and the want-to-believers excited about MAs, doesn’t it?
I have never even heard of anyone ever seeing this technique used against a hostile attacker, let alone seen it myself. Ever. I know people claim some ridiculous things, but I only hear this story when somebody recounts a bad movie or much-clouded-by-myth story of an old master.
But, it’s the ultimate way to kick that bully’s ass, and I need it to be true…
If I was uneducated in the ways of a trained martial artist, and I saw a monk dispense with 4 bandits and send them flying with purely normal throws & blows (like we all have done to someone at some point), I might think he had some mysterious power. Qi would be my first candidate.
I personally believe in, for lack of a better term, God, and a resultant life force. I just don’t believe you shoot it out of your hands. Leave that to Yoda.
Qi is nothing more than a combination of mental focus, training, good health, and learned skill. It is not a secret. Most people, as they age, realize that many things aren’t as exciting underneath the surface as we once thought. Self-defense, done right, is downright boring. But there is satisfaction to be gained in pursuing this goal. The real deal.
I’m sure your Sifu is a wonderful man and a first-rate martial artist. I don’t know him or any of his students, so, I’ll take your word.
I just know that those clips are bull.
I’m embarrassed for all those on both sides of the fence who believe them.
Attn: MantisWill
Thank you for doubting without being insulting. Here is some food for thought. The following questions are relevant to the subject at hand:
1)What is the effect of having a unified body (i.e., a body whose various parts work synchronously) on power generation in striking and on conversion of potential energy to kinetic energy?
2)What is the advantage of using a phoenix eye fist to strike?
3)Is it possible to strike with body parts other than the fists, feet, and head?
4)Which is more “stable”: a pyramid sitting on its base or a pyramid sitting on its point? A ball rolling down a hill or a ball at the bottom of the hill lying still?
5)What is the difference between a body in motion and lying still?
6)Why does a boxer “roll with the punches”?
7)Do you use the same defense against every offense and the same strike for every attack?
“Qi is nothing more than a combination of mental focus, training, good health, and learned skill.”
In essence, I agree with your definition of chi. I do not think there is anything particularly supernatural about it. It is important to remember that the scientific method disproves theories. It never proves them completely. Anomalous findings should be regarded with suspicion but not shoved under the rug for convenience. Engineers know that if something works, it works rather all the details of the underlying theory are worked out or not. Even classical electromagnetic theory still contains some annoying problems but it has not kept us from supplying electricity to a considerable percentage of the population of the world. I guess what I am saying is that I believe you do yourself a disservice if you discount something because you do not understand it from the standpoint of your current knowledge. Certainly, a peasant in the middle ages on looking at the sky and seeing a jet plane would think it was a dragon or something. I think also that it is important to note that western physiological knowledge knows almost nothing about the effects of having a unified body on its various functions and that the relationship between the brain and the body also holds many mysteries still. This truly is a sticky issue but fun to discuss in many ways. Thanks.
Re: Attn: MantisWill
Originally posted by strangecaptain
[B]Thank you for doubting without being insulting.
No prob
Here is some food for thought. The following questions are relevant to the subject at hand:
1)What is the effect of having a unified body (i.e., a body whose various parts work synchronously) on power generation in striking and on conversion of potential energy to kinetic energy?
Mmm, usually, more pain. 
Due to increased speed or impulse.
2)What is the advantage of using a phoenix eye fist to strike?
Higher concentration of force measured in PPSI or the like.
3)Is it possible to strike with body parts other than the fists, feet, and head?
Sure
4)Which is more “stable”: a pyramid sitting on its base or a pyramid sitting on its point? A ball rolling down a hill or a ball at the bottom of the hill lying still?
The ones with lower potential energy (Base and bottom)
5)What is the difference between a body in motion and lying still?
Energy changed from potential to kinetic
6)Why does a boxer “roll with the punches”?
To lengthen the time of impact (reduce impulse and therefore injury) and to lessen the angle of attack (turn vector from 90 degrees)
7)Do you use the same defense against every offense and the same strike for every attack?
Nope
“Qi is nothing more than a combination of mental focus, training, good health, and learned skill.”
In essence, I agree with your definition of chi.
And I mostly agree w/you on your points. We’re both revolving around the same focus.
I guess what I am saying is that I believe you do yourself a disservice if you discount something because you do not understand it from the standpoint of your current knowledge.
It’s not that I don’t understand it; I just don’t see it. Or feel it. Unlike god. Whom I see and feel everywhere I look. Especially in quantum mechanics relativity.
I think also that it is important to note that western physiological knowledge knows almost nothing about the effects of having a unified body on its various functions and that the relationship between the brain and the body also holds many mysteries still.
True
This truly is a sticky issue but fun to discuss in many ways.
True
Thanks. [/B]
In short: To prove or disprove only what can be observed is science. To believe in something that isn’t observed is faith.
If I ever actually saw something real that someone claimed was Qi, I would have no understanding of it, but I would believe it. Much like I do electric circuits (my worst course in school).
Those video clip were not believable to me. Some simple experiments would prove or disprove the claim. And I certainly don’t have faith in Qi, either.
I do believe that through focus, training, and knowledge, one can improve one’s health (like strengthening tendons), gain skill (like throwing foes w/ease), and build power (faster punches). In ways that may be imperceptible to an onlooker until the skill is activated (He’s standing there and breathing. What does that do? Ow, why am I on the ground? ). But isn’t that what a marksman does after repitition of good form or a baseball hitter achieves with lots of hitting drills? They don’t claim Qi. Just hard work.
attn: MantisWill
Cool. Enjoyable exchange.
Re: A letter to me from Dr.Wong (ATTENTION: tnwingtsun)
Regarding Your Post:
-
Lee Pai followed Cheung Siu Man to BC – and he was already a very strong kung fu exponent at that time. He had far more than 3 years with Cheung Siu Man and they still live in close proximity to each other. In fact, Cheung Siu-Man has overseen the training of Lee Pai’s son and his Todei.
-
How would pushing Dr Wong aside promote any tapes that Lee or Mike might put out?
-
He makes relatively good money as a high school teacher. He only charges $40 - $50 / month – that pays the rent. He has seminars occasionally; the profits generated from them are used for his trips to BC. Does this sound like an opportunistic conman?
-
Does Dr. Wong know that you posted this letter?
-
The Pai Lum has nothing to do with Pak Mei or Dragon. Pak Mei is too difficult to teach to beginners. The Pai Lum curriculum contains some forms, drills, exercises and Taiji – where they came from is our business. There is too much completely false or misleading information about the Pai Lum and Danny Pai on the web.
This is all that I wan’t to share – and it should be enough. I have no comments on you and yours. When you are finished looking at www.pakmei.net take a peak at pakmei.in2000.com. That is Mike Doucet next to Cheng Bing Lam and Mr Yau.
Originally posted by tnwingtsun
“Hi Don: I just wrote you a note and then went to the forum and find out 2 things. (1)The guy tried to discredit me as not a student of Ng came from the Pai-lum-White Eyebrow group. He is Mike Ducet who tries to promote his teacher as the “designated successor of Ng”. I found out from Ng’s oldest son Stephen Ng, just not too long ago that his teacher had no more than 3 yr’s training from my junior Chang Siu Man. This group is at best conmen. All the negative remarks are pushing me aside so that one day they sell tapes for monetary gain.
(2) The demonstration tape recorded an event in March 2001.
The team members included students whose ages of training ranging from 6 months to 12 years; and the woman looked not natural came from the tai-chi group as a beginner. Tai chi students don’t fall fast as she did not have sufficient training to fall like the Bai-mei group. I have not looked at Luke’s work at the website. He might confused my teacher Beng-fat with his brother Beng-lum–and this will be corrected. For copyright, Luke hesitated to release the tape for 2000 March event. I will tell him to post the group involved in the power of tremor demonstration instead of the one on the current website. If you would, present what I said here to the forum to clarify the issue. The Pai-lum group tried to discredit me will run into rock as the most important elements of the internal group all know me and always received me with warmth and respect. I don’t even need the recognition of the Mike-Ducet-Pai-lum people.
Warm regards. Dr. Wong”
She fell slow because she didn’t have sufficient training to fall like the bai mei group…???
I have learned for a long time,… but never learned bai mei teaches you to fall faster.
More like she didn’t have sufficient training in her acting skills.
Small:
Are you from Mike Doucetfs school? Lemme tell ya a little somthin bout dat guy. I cannot speak for the quality of his skill (if it indeed exists) and have no wish to, but I can definitely speak for the quality of his person. Doucet is an extremely rude individual with no respect for anyone. He is an embarrassment to the Bak Mei style and its followers around the world.
Kei Lun
Everyone talks about quality of personality. Is deceiving a quality we admire? how about fraud? I don’t know Doucet or Dr. Wong and I don’t really care if they have nice personalities.
I train hard and fought a lot of karatekas, judo, kickboxers… who still call kungfu “soft style” and when i see that bak mei video i see the reason why other arts (and even other KF styles) think bak mei and KF are full of BS!
Kei Lun
:eek: LOL
OH SNAP!
It’s really simple
What happens when you push someone, very hard and very fast, in the same direction there momentum is already going? Usually they fall, sometimes they fly. What is your instinctive reaction when you suddenly lose balance, such as when you’re at the edge of a cliff, or if you push hard and suddenly nothing is there? Your reflexes take over and you try to balance yourself. The concept of interception is very important in kung-fu. Not blocking or just meeting your attackers punch or kick before it reaches you. But to touch your opponent, feel the direction of force and become “attached”. If your skill is good enough, you can create in your opponent the same feeling you get when you push and suddenly nothing is there. If your opponent is fully commited in his attack, then he will instinctively react and try to regain his balance. If you can feel the direction of his momention when he reacts, and if you react VERY FAST and push VERY FAST, you can send your opponent off. Your reaction has to be the same as what was described in the Pak Mei book where the monk touch CLC with a hot pipe and CLC jumped in reaction. CLC without thinking, mobilized his body’s energy and jumped. It’s this reaction (conciously done) that one attains through long, hard, and proper training. If everything works to its best, then you could send your opponent several feet back. Dr. Wong and his student has done this demonstration many times, and Dr. Wong has a very good feeling for his students pace and force, and his student doesn’t think and just fully commits to the punch. Other students that haven’t had the training may not push hard and fast enough or commit fully, thus the results may vary. Whatever he gains in his familiarity with his students doesn’t diminish the fact the demonstrations require a high level of skill. Skill Dr. Wong has attained from 40+ years of training. I can say one thing for sure, none of what is done is faked or staged. In a real fight situation though, one wouldn’t want to be so fancy - a square punch will do.
jonlucas and others
When I turn 64 years old I hope I will have the knowledge
and the health that he(DR.Wong) has achived through his training/family and the MANY students that have
sweated blood and sacrifice to attain the Bai Mei skills that he
as not only a teacher but a father figure(Is this not what “SIFU” means?)
Some question his fighting skills based on the videos on his web site as “BS”
Thats ok for you,do you really think that you are getting everything from a web-site demo??
Who is your teacher?
Maybe you should learn more from your Sifu before you make the mistake of judging others.
Thats easy to do,life styles is another thing.
IMHO,empty your cup(YOUR CUP!),then drive on.
Not knocking Dr.Wong as a fighter which he has proven himself many times in the past,but his students from the 70’s,80’s and 90’s into his present group is a respectible(typo) group into itself
with a different/but same concept as the begennning.
I have seen some of the best fighters Dr.Wong has put out,most of them (IMHO) would rather heal than hurt(I said most)