Joe Mantis
The Lan Jeet (that’s what we call it) we have currently came from Zhang Bing Dao. I know of at least 2 groups that learned it in China but it’s not complete. It spread from there. I have not seen it on the curriculum but I believe it’s at a higher level. Tainan mentioned reading or hearing the Master Chan performed it when he first came to the US so Wah Lum has it but I don’t know whether it’s the same or not. I’m surprised it was allowed to spread here, I don’t know who was teaching it but quite a few seem to know it.
Currently (and as far back as I can remember) we do not scoop with the Chow Choy. We block straight up clearing the arms to make way for the uppercut. With the opponents guard high you immediately follow with Bean Choy.
Yu Shan
Leroy is a good guy, he works hard. I’ve seen him go from so-so to real good. Sorry if I was a little tense, been having a hard time at work and that’s where I post from so the tension leaks over to here.
Tainan, Flem
I’ve heard mention of a form called Swallow but never actually saw it (unless I did but didn’t know what it was). At first I thought Richard Allen was being his usual crude self but then I discovered it was a real form. You guy’s have an idea which one it is?
"For HK7* I believe you are thinking of Fei Yen Zhang-flying sparrow(or goose?) palm. No relation. "
When speaking of HK7*, I think it would be more accurate to specify the Wong Hon Fun line or the Chiu Chi Man line since they are both HK7* but quite different in curriculum and flavor.
I have heard that the CCM line has the “Siu Fu Yin” - Small Tiger Swallow form and those in that that series which the WHF line does not. There is another form called “Fei Ngang Jeung” - Flying Geese Palm which I believe is in both lineages although I have not seen anyone in the CCM perform this set and don’t know if they are the same.
i am glad to receive a kind response, except for hua lin laoshi i was about to call it quits, after all, as i said before i really only began to speak because of a comment i felt i needed to address.
the possibilities in this forum are awesome, if the clowns trying to make others look foolish instead of share would go thier own way.
i wish that i had such a place years ago when i felt as you do now. i do not try to think of why master chan showed me what he did(if as others say i am the only one [which i do not believe]),in any case, perhaps he saw a willingness on my part to explore my stuff. but none of that matters.
all techniques- i could not have said it better than mimi(i think) in the current KF online article, and that is that the techniques take on meaning equivelent to both ones experience level as well as their ability to open their mind.
16 hands- i never learned that application for the moves you said, but i can understand how it was arrived at. since the scoop is low and the twist step is employed it seems logical, and perhaps it is, but i feel that would only be effective for an opponent that is either timid or of little experience
the application that i was taught uses your left upward block against the opponents right punch, the chow choy is delivered under their chin. immediately following you step through(behind) the opponent having grabbed their arm after the block, now their arm is behind them in chin na. i have found that the scoops, though long, are most effective at closer distances, you just have to forget about the hand and use the whole arm.
before the pong lai group start typing furiously, i must restate that that is the app i learned, an opponent with experience is going to follow your energy not allowing you behind them. also, i believe that the transitional movement between chow choy and bean choy demonstrate that it is a hand defense, as the chow choy becomes a deflecting block utilizing the forearm. again, depending on your opponents ability, their right hand could disengage from your block and attack hence the forearm block, your empty left hand that trails the bean choy can be used to parry an attack from his left hand making room for your bean choy(safely inside their guard)
what do you do with the punch at sky(for lack of a better name) after the series you mentioned?
The move is called “Soon Teen Pow Choy” (pierce the sky punch). Your larger opponent is attempting to “bum rush”/ tackle you. You slightly retreat into the squatting type stance and place your hand (left) on his chest as a “feeler” or even better to grab his shirt as you launch him with the straight up punch under the chin. If he is lucky or skilled and dodges, you are still holding him and then come down with the next move, the elbow to the spine (or could be a forearm smash to kidney if they’re bent over enough and at an angle). (“Mo Chung Da Fu”-Mo Chung Strikes the Tiger).
Anyone else have a different app? I would love to hear any of the Pong Lai guys interpretation of that sequence, as I find their app’s ARE AWESOME. (I’m not a Pong Lai, but have spent a little time at their school in seminars). Great Mantis- usage oriented instruction. Every WL’er owes it to themselves to pay a visit, even if it must be incognito. Yu Shan said it well…I too have had my eyes opened…I feel like I took the red pill (or whatever color pill it was in the Matrix). Dorothy definately ain’t in Kansas anymore…
Hao lin-
No longer in WL (I left way before I met the Pong Lai guys, if anyone was wondering) although still have friends who are still there. I love the system (yes, it’s REAL) just not the game.
If the low scoop is now out of Little Mantis, how do you transition into the Chow Choy/Bean Choy’s? Maybe it’s now done like in 36 Hands?
this is the app that a sifu said CP told him.
After the punch to the sky(to their chin), press with your rt. shoulder and come down with your right elbow to their collar bone or top of chest. I would assume you are stepping into them at the same time, not the exact move as the single set.
Little open gate-
at the end of the first run after the last spear hand, then hook, when you change direction did you learn the next move as a hook by your left foot or as a grab?
Chow Choy/Bean Choy is a good attack sequence. Sure it can be a block/attack but I don’t think you need to wait for a punch. The Chow Choy block can be applied to any fighting position with the hands up. Besides, whether the uppercut lands or not you have their guard up high so you follow by attacking low with the Bean Choy. In 16 Hands you step in blocking (with left) and pinning the arm while driving the fist straight up to the chin. Now grab what you can (left hand) pulling down and across, dropping and striking (we learn backfist but elbow will work) to available target (head, neck, collarbone or arm). I like yanking the arm out and smashing it. There are other scenerios for that sequence, like a 2nd attacker. It also depends on size of opponent. Anyone ever think about stepping in real low/left palm to solar plexus/right grab to groin/step up right hand rising (punch the sky) taking him off his feet/drop him following through with downward strike (elbow or fist)?
Jack Squat
You mean the Chow Choy/Bean Choy in 16 Hands, not Little Mantis. Did you learn the scoop with the Chow Choy in 8 Basic Punches? Yes it is like in 36 Hands. We follow straight up blocking high. Instead of going 90 degrees into Bean Choy go straight ahead into Bean Choy. We do it this way in the 8 Basic Punches line drill too.
Joe Mantis
I have multiple apps for the begining of 1st Form as well.
18 Elders
I like my apps better. I don’t see much power in bringing the elbow down on a standing opponent. In Little Open Gate I learned grab. What will a hook accomplish here that a grab can’t do?
Young Mantis, Chiu Chi Man lineage has as Sui fu ngoh (small tiger goose) and Dai fu ngoh (Large tiger goose). The swallow form is Yin ji chuen lum kuen ( swallow penetrates the woods).
Yin Ji was known rolling , leaking and rushing.
i also punch to the chin, but i believe the intial move to arrive there is to break out of a grab. as your arm twists to get free of the grab, your elbow follows the rool and ends up on top of their forearm, together with the step and closing of the elbow into your body your arm is free. then you are along side of your opponent clear for the removal of their head.
joe mantis
spear hand-i don’t think so. i have learned your technique elsewhere. in any case, i would train iron palm before using it.
1st form, similar to end of 2nd, but in this case it works to oppose the next technique, and reapply.
Thanks for the info. Very interersting indeed. I believe both Young Mantis and Seung Ga Faat have addressed my understanding of the “Tiger Swallow”.
I also find your defination/understanding of pairing of forms similar to mine. BTW, I posted a question about the drill (Chi Sao?) that you mentioned on a different thread on the TJPM forum. Please check it out.
Thanks for your info on the Tiger Geese forms. Again, I don’t know much of the CCM lineage except for what I am learning online.
I had not heard of “Yin Ji Chuen Lum Kuen” before this discussion. You sound like you are attributing this form to a person named “Yin Ji” and that this person is known for rolling, leaking, and rushing techniques. Is this supposed to be the same person as “Yin Ching” from the 18 Styles Poem and also the person attributed to “Yin Ching Dahn Doe”? or is it a different person?
I thought it was just a poetic imagery of the flavor of the form, like a swallow swooping through a forest.
You are right. I meant the Chow Choy/Bean Choy in 16 Hands, not Little Mantis. I too take advantage of downtime at work to surf the net and occasionally get distracted. My mistake.
Interesting on the change in the Basic Punches line drill. After the Chow Choy/Bean Choy, do you then step 90 degrees to the left to get back into the pattern for the high circle punch?
Also, I learned the third kick in Little Mantis, but saw others who only teach the two kicks.
Here’s one for you or Flem-how about the scoop/spear hands in LOG that you and Joe Mantis were discussing? I always thought that such a finger strike was too advanced for a lower form (not enough time for beginners to strengthen the fingers). That segment also contains the scooping blocks. Ideas on app’s?
Flem- I agree with you about the moves that seem to be long range but are actually aren’t. You see that all the time in longfist, 10/12 tan tui, etc. Did you have any experience in other styles?
Hi, Jack – hope you don’t mind if I jump in on the thread here.
When I started learning LOG early in my training it was clear that many of the moves were different from the basic movements in other exercises and forms. Especially the scoop/spear hand moves, grab/turn, the three double-hand strikes at the middle of the form and the elbow strikes. LOG is the first time new students do these moves. It always seemed like a preview of things to come.
I certainly couldn’t do an effective spear hand then. But thinking about it, there can be other apps to the scoop/spear hand movement. The scoop is very wide and travels inside-to-outside; IMO this could be used at close/medium range to break out of an opponent’s grab. As the opponent’s grip is broken the left hand comes up in guard position; it can also grasp the opponent’s wrist and hold tight as the scooping hand comes up and over the opponent’s arm. You step forward at the same time and this locks the opponent’s arm under your right arm; left hand spears forward into his throat.
Or, instead of a direct spear to the throat, maybe thrust the left arm beside the neck, putting you in position to grasp the back of his head and then work a vicious app of your own design (insert vicious app here).
I could be wrong … I’m doing most of the movement in my head instead of against a real person. Hope it makes sense to you all.
Many of the movements that are expressed in the solo forms as ‘long’, are applied as short. One trains ‘long’ to develop the ability to transfer the power to the end of the limbs. This develops quite a bit of ‘pop’ in the motion and gives the CMA a lot of their charecteristic flavor. Long power when applied short has a strong jolting effect on the recipient.
Applied in the LOG sequence this manner of thinking turns the spear hand after the scoop into a ‘shoulder stroke’ where the attacker really drives their shoulder foward as in the solo form.The scooping hand turns over and may trap the opponents arm(are you inside or outside their foward shoulder?) or press against their torso/head to anchor them for your stroke.
None of this works in the ‘research’ situation unless both partners break out of the ‘one step’ mind set and try many different attacks, from differing angles, all applied with ‘intent’. Then you have a chance to really examine your form and learn to adjust it to fit the situation. Self-motivation(doesn’t come from a teacher)is required along with a partner who is willing to undergo some pain.
Jack Squat
The line drill of 8 Basic Punches moves in a straight line, no 90 deg. turns. You need to break away from the single spot pattern. In the single spot drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (R)/Bean Choy (R). In the line drill you have Ping Choy (R)/Gwa Choy (R)/Chow Choy (L)/Bean Choy (L). Start with reverse punch and step in for Gwa Choy.
There are some pretty advanced (and slick) moves in some of the lower level material (see my post on 16 Hands throw). The spear hand in LOG can thrust to the throat or back hand to collarbone. Either way it’s all the leverage that’s needed to drop opponent on back of head. I don’t teach that stuff to beginners because they need to focus on blocking, punching and moving. Besides, you can do some real damage with this move and the 16 Hands example. And I don’t teach intermediate or advanced students so right now it’s all just in my head. Of course a lot of Wah Lum students read these posts so I guess they know them now.
Also, on the long range moves you have to keep in mind that sometimes the technique is executed BEFORE the final position. If you don’t know the app then you tend to look at the final position as the focus of the technique. What I like is that there are generally multiple apps for each move ranging from basic to advanced. You teach beginners the basic app and later on show the the advanced apps.
Good point regarding posture and timing of applications.
You’re right, a lot of people focus on the end movement. Often times this is the follow through.
Your posted app has a nice taiqi flair (as all good mantis should). Although I use the shoulder stroke app for other moves, never thought of it for that sequence (I was taught to do the finger strikes in a very linear manner, not in a circular, spreading motion. Don’t get me wrong-I also feel that the movements of a form are simply a map and not the territory; you often use subtle adaptations in application. I just never thought of spreading/shoulder stroke for that sequence-thanks!)
Hua Lin-
Good info! How about these:
Use the finger strikes to the armpit instead of the throat (potentially deadly dim mak point- you newbies out there please don’t actually strike your partners with this!) The “blocking” hand is actually grabbing the opponents wrist and pulling his arm towards you as you thrust the fingers into the pit (ouch!)
Or following the concept of what Spiralstair said (sort of), slip the "spearhand in under the opponents chin to the neck and the “blocking” hand is actually grabbing the opponents hair and pulling his head down into a choke/neck break (your arm presses his neck) (double ouch).
Or this:
After the second finger strike, your right hand ends up inbetween opponents head and left shoulder, your left hand holds his left wrist (works best if opponents arm (and your left arm) is above your right arm, unlike in the form-subtle adaptation). Now do the next move-the circular low mantis hook into pok ma.
I also like what Hua Lin and Joe Mantis said about the open palm gwa choys-in application very fast, very powerful.
Young Mantis and 108,
Ying Ching and Yin Ji are not the same person. (Of course I will check my notes and get back to you with more specific info)
Ying Ching was both a knivesman and good at throwing and Yin Ji was noted for rolling leaking and gate rushing. The Yin Ji form does just that . Maybe the grove or wood represents the low gates and legs. Sometimes leg training is called post or stake training.
Please, excuse me if I don’t respond quickly. I have limited access to a computer since I sort of lost mine.
I don’t see much power in bringing the elbow down on a standing opponent. In Little Open Gate I learned grab. What will a hook accomplish here that a grab can’t do?