Wah Lum
Hua Lin Laoshr,
Did you know that Big Mantis is beng bu?
Footwork
How about footwork… is the monkey-style footwork in Mantis the same as or similar to the footwork in Monkey-Style Kung Fu, or is it just another set of footwork also based on observing monkeys in the wild?
How has the footwork changed in the various styles of Mantis over the years?
Is 8-Step the only variation of Mantis which has modified the footwork from the original monkey-style, or have the others also modified the footwork?
Any comments on this?
Tainan
I didn’t know that other than from another one of your posts indicating you thought Big Mantis was Wah Lum’s Bung Bo. I haven’t asked about it and have to get through 5th Form before I learn it.
Tainan Mantis
Interesting Wah Lums Big Mantis is Beng Bu, never heard this. I was fortunate to have been taught 2 versions, P. Chans & Chan Wan Chings. Could you explain , Im going over 7* and cant even see the simis. Sorry bout the ignorance.
Hua Lin
Isn`t the #8 a Lucky number?
beng bu = big mantis
This I have heard from three Wah Lum sifus. At present one is still in the system and one is certified under CWC elder brother.
In an interview with CWC published in HK while he was still alive he says"…Wah Lum is similar to other PM styles in that it has forms such as beng bu and lan jie, but of special note is a form called little mantis, otherwise known as iron door bolt…"
I have not learned the Wah Lum beng bu, I only have a video of it. The first time I saw it I also didn’t recognize it, but after watching closely I saw beng bu. Some aspects are similar to 7* and some are similar to TJPM.
The kung fu cousin of Chan Poi’s who studied with the head instructor of Wah Lum Canton branch (CWC elder brother) has told me Wah Lum contains the 3 Wang Lang forms, beng bu, lan jie and 8 Elbows(no relation to 18 elbows).
I asked if his beng bu has 3 jump kicks in the first route to which he says yes.
In 7* beng bu there is a front kick in first route 2 man that usually isn’t taught in the solo version. The Wah Lum takes that one kick and turns it into three without disrupting the logic of the form.
yu shan
if my chinese is correct your name translates to jade mountain which is what LKS name was before he changed it. Are you naming yourself after him or after the mountain in Taiwan?
18elders
why do you concern yourself so much over names and who’s who?
flem
how’s my good buddy flem today. I tripled up on the medication today so i’m very happy.
Actually yu shan is a very good friend of mine, just messing around with him as his name is after the tallest peak in taiwan, just happened to translate out to lks real name.
Sorry to upset you, would you like me to send you some of my medication?
Tainan Mantis
Thank you for the info on Big Mantis. It and Lil Mantis, are to me, two of the nicest Wah Lum forms! There is definetely an Explosive flavor to them both. Since I do know 7* Beng Bu, I can kind of see some of the same apps/movements. My Shrfu has not taught me the two person yet,Im sure I will discover more sutle simis from there.You have to admit though , WLs Beng Bu is quite differant, more so than other BB versions. If WL has these 3 Mantis forms, Why doesn`t anyone know the other two? I see hints of mantis all thru WL, but that being said,I see predominently southern Hong Kong gong fu. I am not saying this is a bad thing, the mixture is quite Dynamic.
I was told by one of my Shrfus(and I was Lucky to have Two of the Best) that forms 1 thru 6 are merely training forms, and that I would never see the real Mantis forms of WL! Out of these 6 My favorites were 2,3,and 5.
Pong Lai has opened my eyes and I can see the Mountain Top!
18 Elders
Im studying a book on Taiwan and thought it Ironic the name of the tallest Mtn. their. Plus they say its very weathered and scarred at top. So 18 Old Men, you know my age, read between the lines. Ha Ha!! Plus I wanted to push your buttons a bit. Oh yea, whats wrong with idealizing a Famous escort? God I hope youve taking your medicine! So O, what do you think about what Tainan said about 3 Wang Lang forms in WL?
Hua Lin
Are you learning 5th form now? Notice how it starts out looking very southern? It is a very good form none the less,half way in you`ll have to take a nap.
Flem
Thanks for jumping 18 Old Timer for me, He needs to be kepted in check.
Everyone
Im new here, so try not to bash me right off. I respect everyone, just trying to expand my knowledge and its kind of fun to read the friendly banter. I`m spoon fed and love it!
TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME!
yu shan
now that you have joined the KFO we will have to call you the 19th. old man!
lan jie, 8 elbows in WL
They may very well be in other branches of the original WL but i have never heard of it in Chan Poi’s branch. They may have never learned it before LKS died. From what i have heard after LKS died WL split into different branches and one was the HK branch.Those form may have never been passed on. I guess the best way would be for either Hua lin or Sa mantis or Northern Mantis to ask master chan about it.
tainan
I also was lucky enough to see a form called Saint hands in WL. My shr-fu at the time asked master chan about it and he just walked away from him.
Could you asked your friend (chan wan ching’s senior kung fu bro.) if he knows about it?
I had it on tape but unfortunately i taped over it.
18 Elders
I`ve heard you speak of this Saint Hands form in WL before, can you remember the movement, and how did it start out?
It will be interesting to see what Tainan comes up with. He has good info.
Have you noticed forms taught years ago were more complexed and seemed to have basically alot more stuff? I had heard, they were making it where it was more obtainable, that the forms were just plain too difficult for the regular smuck. I am referring to Wah Lum material. I do not agree with watering down such a nice style, you should reward your Shrfus!with the advanced (way) and later on share when the student can get it. But, bottom line, what good is it if you are not TAUGHT the applications. Thanks to my Shrfu now, I am able to see some good apps. in WL and the numerous ways of applying. My Shrfu teaches me real Mantis Gong Fu, this in turn helps me with my old WL stuff, cuz you know and I know it`s all about application!
Spoon fed and Love it!
TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME!
yu shan
it is interesting that you guys who didn’t learn application all seem to be together, wonder why?
18 Elders
Saint Hands is a.k.a. So Lo Sow. Hopefully Tianan can shed some light on this almost mythical form.
yu shan- I agree. It does seem that the more recent forms are watered down, or at least earier to perform. I think it just may be good business to do so. You’re right, the average schmuck can’t do the advanced forms properly.
There’s a guy who was at the tournament 2000, I think his name is Pham or something like that. He won in youth division. (Pham, if you are reading this and my information is incorrect, I apologize). He’s a breath of fresh air-lots of skill, even more potential. He is the only one that I’ve seen lately who could pull off some of the old forms.
Wah Lum Forms
My friend is a disciple of Wong K. Wing who studied with Lee Kwan Shan for 15 years. Master Wong was sihing to CWC as well as head instructor at Canton Wah Lum branch as I mentioned before.
According to him there were only 12 forms and drills for 2 people.
Out of respect for my friend I will not mention his name without his permission.
I have a list of the names of the forms. They are transliterated form Cantonese and so I don’t recognize all the names.
I will list them here and you can show them to someone who is versed in Cantonese. Or maybe Mantis108 can help.
Names I know(Cantonese-Mandarin)
1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
2.lan jeet -lan jie
3.baht zhao -ba zhou
4.tam toy -tan tuei
5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
7.dai fan che -da fan che
8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
9.yee lo"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“second route”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”"
10.saam lo"“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“third route”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”"
I don’t know the following:
11.yau ling kuen
12.yin ji chuen lum
Some of these forms are technically advanced with difficult kicks and splits.
According to Ilya Profatilov’s article Jiang Hwa Long only tuaght the first 3 forms when he was younger. As he became older he removed those forms. They are also in TJPM.
But, da fan che form comes from Li Kun Shan’s uncle. It was passed on to :
-8 Step
-7*
-plum flower and
-Wah Lum
This seems to indicate that:
-
Lee Kwan Shan’s teacher learned from Jiang Hwa Long in his early days. When Da Fan Che was added, but before the first 3 forms were removed.
-
Lee Kwan Shan had another unnamed teacher who taught some of these forms to him. For example; Abbot Ching Yeung could have learned from some PM teacher the first 3 or maybe 2 forms and the Lee learned another 1 or 2 from someone else.
Solution:
compare the first 3 WL forms and Da Fan Che with versions in other styles. This would be a huge step in finding out who the Abbot learned from.
Also, #4 Tam Toy is taught different ways by dfferent schools. Seeing this form in WL(10 routes) could also help to unravel some more history.
Hua Lin:
If Big Mantis is Beng bu. AND Beng bu is a basic set and taught early in praying manits systems, how come it takes so long before one learns it in WL? I’m interested to know.
Thanks for the help.
Tainan:
#11 Yau ling - I have heard that this form is called “Soft Flexible Fist.”
Not many people know it.
beng bu and ro ling
Joe Mantis,
I believe that beng bu is only called a basic set in modern times since it is the first or one of the first sets taught. Also the WL version is more difficult than 7* and TJPM version.
Strange, the 7* lan jie is much easier or more basic looking than beng bu.
Sometimes I think this is a shame that beng bu is called basic since it causes students to think of beng bu as something for beginners(it is my all time fave), not realizing that Wang Lang put the essence of PM in this set as he understood it at the time. As opposed to him thinking,“first I’ll invent an easy set for beginners to practice.”
I remember you have done PM for 9 years right? You must have seen some people take beng bu, which looks great when done by your teacher and just mangle it up.
Although it is easier than some other forms I think it can be an advanced set if students look at it as such.
One of my GM who my shr fu said was one of the best out of 30, named Luan Hsing Fu, had an interesting way of teaching.
When someone knocked on his door to learn kung fu he would teach them the horse stance. The student had to sit like that for the whole class while GM Luan went to watch TV.
Nobody I knew in the states would pay money for this.
Ro Ling:
Soft agile fist. I haven’t learned it but my kung fu brother often performed it. I also wondered if that is the set from the WL 12. But WL is heavy on kicks and that form has not a single kick.
The form Dwo Gang as my teacher learned it is meant to be done together with ro ling. In other words he said they are a pair.
I don’t know if your teacher said that, but don’t they look like they go together?
Also, in other PM teachers forms they say dzo gang and yo ling. Which means left rigid and right agile. So I wonder if these forms have also gone thruogh some name changes?
11.yau ling kuen - Soft/flexible agile fist
12.yin ji chuen lum - Swallow (flies) throught the forrest.
#11 seems to be in 7* already
#12 I have a strange feeling that I might have heard it mentioned as 7* form but I am more inclined to think it is a Changquan Tanglang form. But then I could be way off here.
Speaking of pairs in PM forms. I think that Jit Gun in TJPM is sort of pair with Bung Bo mainly because there are similar techniques plus kind of an expansion of them . Also if the old Plam Blossom name is indeed Beng Pu (crash and fill in) , then Jit Gun (swiftly followed) will make a lot of sense as pairing with Beng Pu.
Mantis108
Jack Squat
I was fortunate to have this “Pham” kid in my ring twice! Of course I scored him favorably He reminded me of a Si-Hing(Cantonese) I had in WL named Shrfu D Wong who to me is a true champion. You wonder WL practioners, why is he gone?
Thank you for the kudos on the “watering down” of WL. Some of the old stuff was amazing. Dont you think P. Chan needs to pull out the stops, and properly propagate the American version of Wah Lum? As for good business, whats next, a friggen belt ranking system?
Tainan Mantis
My first WL Shrfu used to get us in horse stance (flat out) and go off and stir fry or go to the 7-11 for coffee, sixty minutes later he would return and begin class. I payed money for this knowing that to reach the sweetness of Gong-Fu you have to taste the bitterness. Xia Xia for all the great insight that you provide.Da Fan Che, is this the same as Fan Cha?
Flem
Application Brothers we are together in heart united in Strength. All kidding aside, when you are strung along in WL for years with the perpetual carrot dangling in front of you, well what has happened to all the Greats? They realized the false euphoria and moved on to bigger and better.
Joe Mantis
Whats with the mystic of the Big Mantis form in WL ? Heck, 2 and 3 form will give you a **** of a good work-out if done properly. I respect Tainan, but I think hes wrong about the comparison of 7* Beng Bu and American WL Big Mantis.To me,Beng Bu has a few more intricacies.
Mantis 108
Thank you also for your quality insight. I saw Yao Li do Swallow flies thru the forest back in the 70`s at least that is what he called it.