Originally posted by Gangsterfist
It all depends on your goals. I don’t wish to be a good ring fighter, so I train realistic combat for self defense. I want to beat up the guy (or girl ?) who attacks myself or loved ones. So, I don’t train to fight in the ring. My goals are to take out an opponet quickly and effeciently, not abiding by any rules or regulations.
How do you train differently for “realistic combat for self-defense” vs. training to be a good ring fighter?
Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the definition of the grappling? (not joking)
wrestling
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
wrestling
Thanks!
That is the game of lots of physical strenght.
Knifefighter,
There may be counters to the hold in the picture but how effectively can those counters be applied? Would it be easy for one to get out of a hold like this? All I know is that in about 30 seconds you are going to pass out, and are in a very disadvantaged position. I can see that one could counter it before the hold was applied but not when the guy has it on like this guy is. If there are counters when the hold is applied like this then please enlighten me, as I am always willing to learn..
James
Two basic counters once the choke is in:
1- Grab the wrist of the hand that is moving behind the head. Extend the arm straight, with the elbow in the shoulder. Pull the arm down with the pressure into the elbow.
2- Relieve the pressure by pulling down at the elbow around the neck and pulling down at the shoulder or tricep area of the same arm. Scoot your back to the floor and pull your head out.
sounds interesting but I still don’t buy that these two “basic” counters will work when the hold is applied this tightly, maybe if the circumstance was not so lop sided they may apply..
James
Originally posted by sihing
sounds interesting but I still don’t buy that these two “basic” counters will work when the hold is applied this tightly, maybe if the circumstance was not so lop sided they may apply..
They certainly won’t work if you haven’t practiced it enough against someone who is actively trying to choke you. However, I can testify that you can, indeed, escape from this choke when it is locked in if you are actively learning and training in a system that teaches you how to do this. Many times I have given people this choke as a starting position and escaped it.
Knifefighter
How do you train differently for “realistic combat for self-defense” vs. training to be a good ring fighter?
In realistic combat training you focus on either taking the opponents out quickly or getting the heck out of dodge (or both). By this I mean maiming shots or brutal control moves or running.
In training to be a good ring fighter it just depends on the scoring system. Some go by number of hits (thus force does not apply, think olympic boxing or TKD) others go by knockout or domination (UFC or Pro Boxing). Others are for entertainment (WWE, Many Kung Fu forms). You get the idea.
Bagelgod
“Ok, put your hand here and I’ll whoop your ass. No, no, here. Look, lemme do it.”
I wish I did not agree with you. Small circles are better IMO, but there is a wealth of information in the art, just applied poorly. The only exception I can think of was when we had some very old masters come in from Japan (none of them were fat IIRC) and I was totally blown away by the level of skill they showed. I was able to attack them at full speed (strikes, kicks etc, not just grabs) and all I got was tossed effortlessly to the ground, in some cases without even being touched.
Originally posted by Tydive
[B]Knifefighter
I wish I did not agree with you. Small circles are better IMO, but there is a wealth of information in the art, just applied poorly. The only exception I can think of was when we had some very old masters come in from Japan (none of them were fat IIRC) and I was totally blown away by the level of skill they showed. I was able to attack them at full speed (strikes, kicks etc, not just grabs) and all I got was tossed effortlessly to the ground, in some cases without even being touched. [/B]
What kind of art did those Japanese people do?
Ray
The Art of Fighting without Fighting!
Re: Re: On the subject of grappling, a modest proposal.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Not really… all you have to do is learn how to counter the grappler’s offensive moves and how to escape bad positions.. just enough to frustrate his game and be able to stay in yours. Much less time is required for this than becoming a complete grappler.
To counter all of the grapplers offensive moves requires alot of skill. Even a grappler can’t manage that half the time. If you just learn the basics and go up against a grappler who isn’t a n00b, then it will be tough times. My instructor has told me many times that one of the core foundations of grappling is patience. With patience, there is no frustration. They would just go for sneakier and sneakier moves, that only apply to people who are grappling, which you are engaging in when you use the basics. What is my point here? I don’t quite know. But the basics will not suffice if you go up against another grappler, who spends all their time grappling other grapplers who know more than the basics.
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the definition of the grappling? (not joking)
wrestling[/b]
Just wrestling? No, grappling for me is wrestling along with arm locks, chokes, shoulder locks, wrist locks, toe holds, ankle locks, knee bars, and neck cranks.
Re: Re: Re: On the subject of grappling, a modest proposal.
Originally posted by bagelgod
Just wrestling? No, grappling for me is wrestling along with arm locks, chokes, shoulder locks, wrist locks, toe holds, ankle locks, knee bars, and neck cranks.
True, but there isn’t a dictionary definition that states that. Grapple, comes from grape/grab, take it from there.
Ray, I guess I was not clear. It was an Aikido demonstration at San Jose State University back in the late 80’s. A few of us taking the Aikido classes got to play with them. I was lucky enough to be selected for one on one.
Begalgod, I agree. Why try to fight somebody using his style?
Originally posted by bagelgod
Although it may be the person, not the style, some styles don’t have a chance in comparison. Do you really think an Aikido person would beat up a muay Thai fighter? No. .
What if the Muay Thai fighter sucks?
bagelgod,
To execute any MA technique efficiently requires skill, not just counters to grapplers. The tone of your post would make it sound like it is impossible to counter a grappler unless you yourself are one too, lol. I just saw a video of a hapkido guy knocking out a BJJ guy in 45 seconds, so what’s the story here then? I saw another one a couple of months ago with a kickboxer and BJJ guy, to which the kickboxer knocked the BJJ guy out cold under a minute into the fight. Yeah the BJJ guy’s tried the shoot but, as with any MA technique, it can and was countered with right timing and execution, to which is one of the keys to successful execution of any MA technique. There are no absolute 100% guarantees. Yes, if one has absolutely no MA training and experience to what a grappler can do, then little to no resistance will be applied to the grappler, the same would apply for any Martial artist in any MA. You say it will be tough times for anyone to win when the Grappler is a “nobb”, same holds true for any skilled practitioner of Wing Chun, but the key word here is “Skilled”. The fact of the matter is in today’s world there are allot of MA practitioners out there with false assumptions of their own skills, I see it all the time(today as a matter of fact). Even some of the fighters in UFC and NHB tourneys are kidding themselves. When they win their fights is it because they got lucky with the techniques or was it pure skill that won them the match(like Royce Gracie used to do in the early 90’s). Don’t get me wrong, there are of course skilled athletes in these types of events but not all are.
James
Originally posted by unkokusai
What if the Muay Thai fighter sucks?
Excellent question.
I have seen these kinds of comments posted often, and the point that those who post them are missing is…one art is not fighting another art, a person is fighting another person. The art itself does not make the person. What does make a good fighter is experience. Most MT guys have hours upon hours of experience in the ring (and some on the street perhaps). Most Aikido people (at least the ones I know) don’t spar/fight to gain that experience, but I would wager that one who has would give any MT guy a run for his money.
Yes, a true statement. For Aikido to be effective you better be prepared to set aside at minimum 10yrs to make it all work, due to the fact that it is a defensive MA. Muay Thai on the other hand is much more offensive, but they take one to give one for sure. You have to be tougher to handle their training regimen and technique, and also, if you truly train like the Thai, be willing to suffer the consequences later on in life. But like AmanuJRY said a true master of Aikido vs. a true master of MT, would be a good fight. As usual the same applies if you pit any true master the MA against another of equal skill.
James