oldest style of mantis around

xiao_yao · July 30, 2015, 5:33pm

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1285508]My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of Plum Flower mantis"

This would make some sense as Liang Xue Xiang was born(according to the information you provided above) some 80 years before the earliest documented master of the 7 star line. Thanks[/QUOTE]

But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript… only calls it Mantis… it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.

mooyingmantis · July 31, 2015, 4:02am

[QUOTE=xiao yao;1285511]But Liang Xue Xiang doesnt directly call his style Plum Flower Mantis in his manuscript… only calls it Mantis… it is only his students who added Meihua in front of the name.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I probably should have said, “My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis”. Good point Will.

LaterthanNever · July 31, 2015, 4:13pm

Ah…I see..so "“My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis”

Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.

mooyingmantis · July 31, 2015, 10:31pm

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1285520]Ah…I see..so "“My belief is that Seven Star mantis and Six Harmony mantis are offshoots of the mantis family that later came to be known as Plum Flower mantis”

Phrased this way, are you saying that you believe that 7 star was an older art than PB? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

No!

I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art. The other families are offshoots of that art. Titles are mostly just titles. Which title came first really isn’t relevant to me. Meihua, Taiji, Taijimeihua, Qixing have more similarities than differences. All are equally effective for fighting. Liu He Tanglangquan is kind of another thing altogether in comparison.

I cannot prove my belief anymore than those who oppose my opinion can prove their belief. Chinese masters I have met have various opinions also and are little help in the matter. I do not believe there will ever be a definitive answer. Nor do I believe it matters.

B.Tunks · August 1, 2015, 11:02am

Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.

mooyingmantis · August 1, 2015, 3:37pm

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1285537]Tanglang pre-dates Liang Xuexiang.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, since he “passed it down” rather than creating it.

My opinion is based on the things that can be historically documented by writings still extant. Previous to Liang we have oral traditions and writings that may or may not be mantis in origin.

But my opinion is still open if you can cite historically verifiable writings still extant.

B.Tunks · August 2, 2015, 2:22am

Fair enough its a personal opinion, just not sure how you can say this with authority:

‘I believe the art passed down by Liang Xuexiang was the original mantis art’.

It’s widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX’s TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question, however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc. Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families.

LXX’s TL is definitely one of the roots of today’s TL, but certainly not the only root.

mooyingmantis · August 2, 2015, 3:43am

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1285546]It’s widely accepted that there was an archaic form of TLQ. Whether or not LXX’s TLQ is a continuation of it or not is another question,…[/QUOTE]

And that is why it is just an opinion. I do not claim that it is authoritative.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1285546]…however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity…[/QUOTE]

There is no question that the Chinese were masters of constructing stories, legends, etc. as an attempt at legitimacy. It is still debatable whether the “creator” of mantis boxing, Wang Lang, was an actual historical figure.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1285546]…however all of the existing families of TL (including Liuhe) have constructed their identity around the content of manuscripts such Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan, Shaolin Duanda Quanshi, Shaolin Mijue etc.[/QUOTE]

Has the exact timeline of these writings ever been firmly established?

Is Shaolin Duanda Quanshi truly a “mantis document” or was it merely adopted by mantis practitioners because some ideas in it sound similar to mantis theories? The last I heard, the judgment was still out on this.

Wasn’t Shaolin Yibol Zhenchuan (Shaolin Authentics) passed down in Qixing Tanglangquan from Fan Xudong (1841-1936)? Fan Xudong was BORN one year after Liang Xuexiang wrote his treatise on mantis boxing. Is there any verifiable evidence that shows this document even existed in the time of his sifu, Wang Yunsheng? I ask because I recently read that the Hong Kong branch of Qixing Tanglangquan credits Fan Xudong with writing the five volume set.

[QUOTE=B.Tunks;1285546]Many techniques and methods from these manuscripts were already lost/forgotten by the time of the differentiation of families. [/QUOTE]

Lost/forgotten “techniques and methods” have no place as evidence.

Thank you for your input! It is good to hear other opinions.

B.Tunks · August 2, 2015, 5:00am

Yes there is verifiable evidence that it existed at the time of Wang Yunsheng and material from it can be cross referenced in several manuscripts from the period. Shaolin Authentics or parts thereof are passed down in all of the mantis families not just QX. What FXD passed down were his hand written copies (plus his own additions clearly attributed to himself, in the time honoured tradition). The original author of the older components is listed as Sheng Xiao Daoren - as it is in each family’s manuscripts. Regardless of whether they were adopted into TLQ or actually authored by one of it’s pioneers, they are certainly at its core.

‘Lost’ techniques and methods can be very useful to illustrate how something has changed and can also help to map divergence. They can be a useful indicator of time.

Of course the historicity of WL is still debatable. The same with SXDR. There is research being conducted in Shandong as we speak on the possible identity of SXDR but it’s not my work and I don’t have permission to give spoilers.

Maofei · August 2, 2015, 7:11am

If I may add to what Master Tunks mentioned in his last paragraph:

In reference to Wang Lang:
For those who are not familiar -
One of the four legends of Wang Lang associates him with a historical former Ming Dynasty General named Yu Mengxi who is commonly known as Yu Qi (Yu 7) as he was the 7th child born in his family but the first born male. His pagoda resides at Huayan Temple on Mount Lao. He was the grandson of one of China’s most famous military generals named Qi Jiguang. You can find more information here:
http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1161

In reference to Sheng Xiao Daoren:
There are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.

Warm regards,
-Darin / Maofei

Tainan_Mantis · August 2, 2015, 9:37am

[QUOTE=Maofei;1285550]
One of the four legends of Wang Lang associates him with a historical former Ming Dynasty General named Yu Mengxi who is commonly known as Yu Qi (Yu 7) as he was the 7th child born in his family but the first born male. [/QUOTE]

This links to a thread started by me.
Since that time I have found more information.
Wang Lang is not Yuqi, but there was a confusion about who these two people were so they have been mixed up.

The Chinese article is trying to make a case that Wang Lang is related to General Qi Jiguang, the most famous and arguable important military general of the Ming. Made the more famous by his having achieved tremendous success against piracy in the 1550’s as well as writing a book about how he did it.

This sort of pseudo history is harmful. Trying to elevate your own family tradition by cobbling together bits of folklore and history and hoping the readers don’t look to closely.

On a side note, many generals who didn’t surrender to the Manchurian army settled in Tainan (the city where I live). There are still many temples praising the work of Koxinga and his removal of the Dutch from this city. Taiwan and especially the city of Tainan was the last holdout of the Ming Dynasty.

Maofei · August 2, 2015, 10:19pm

In Shandong there are typically four different stories about the legend of Wang Lang and people tend to mix them together.
One story attributes Wang Lang as Yu Qi who went on to become an abbot of Huayan temple on Lao Mountain. His pagoda/grave resides at the temple. Today there is a statue there for Yu Qi which people often refer to as the Wang Lang statue.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as coming from Jimo county in Shandong and creating Mantis Boxing in Shaolin temple.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as Wang Wencheng from Chunhua county in Shaanxi province.
The last story attributes Wang Lang as Da Dao. The same Da Dao from the stories we hear of Li Bingxiao.
Not everyone understands that there are four different legends which are told in Shandong about Wang Lang.
Master Tunks briefly mentioned historicity of WL is still debatable. It was my intention to let the reader know a little bit more about the debate that Master Tunks was referring to. In doing so I mentioned that there were four legends and gave a little bit of detail on the Yu Qi legend. That detail from the Yu Qi legend and the information that I posted in the Mantis Quarterly forum does not come from the article you linked to which is:
http://csxb.bandao.cn/data/20130730/...content_1.html
I barely glanced at this link and had little interest in even looking at it.
There is a group of people who claim they are actually the descendents of Yu Mengxi. They have done quite a thorough and detailed job of researching and writing about him and the uprisings.

In the Mantis Quarterly posting I also listed some sources they used for their information which are:
Cihai
Chinese history Ming and Qing history
Chinese history people big dictionary
Yu Qi fighting the Qing annals
Xixia county annals

It was my hope by listing these sources that people would not just take anyones word for it and instead do some research for themselves and come to their own conclusion. What is most important is to research the sources used and not his website or commentary.

By listing the Wang Lang legends and various sources for the information on Yu Qi I hope it is becoming clear that my intentions certainly were not cobbling together history, or hoping that people don’t investigate things for themselves.

I do not know the name of the possible identity of Sheng Xiao Daoren of which Master Tunks speaks. However, I am familiar with some of the speculation in Shandong about Sheng Xiao Daoren. I wrote: There are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations. all of which is true in that there are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote using the pseudonym Sheng Xiao Daoren. It is also true that some people have different speculations about the situation as well. I am agreeing with Master Tunks when he says The history of Sheng Xiao Daoren is debatable and only slightly elaborated on one thought that some people have. I myself do not have this thought and I do not believe that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pseudonym of Sheng Xiao Daoren at all. It certainly was not my intention in the slightest bit to try to elevate your own family tradition. My apologies if there was any misunderstanding.

Warm regards,
Darin / Maofei

B.Tunks · August 2, 2015, 11:35pm

G’day Darin.

All good mate! No need to apologise. I’m pretty sure Kevin was referring to the people/authors/‘researchers’ that push certain story lines in respect to the identity of these figures and not actually to you at all (but he can confirm that).
Keep posting because its always really informative stuff. I don’t normally get time to contribute to these discussions but thought I’d throw something on here in the interests of balance as there are many sides to these arguments, as you are very well aware. In fact you definitely seem up to date with what’s going on research-wise. Nice one.

No need for the formalities either - I’m certainly no Master

Cheers.

BT

xiao_yao · August 3, 2015, 8:49am

Going back to Richard’s comments regarding Mantis being all passed down through Liang Xue Xiang… is anyone familiar with Shanxi province Mantis and Hebei province Mantis? Very different arts… Slawomir told me he had briefly trained in Hebei and that the style was totally different to anything done in Shandong, there were no forms, just lines, and that all the terminology followed Shaolin Authentics almost exactly. Boris also knows somebody who is training the style formally, so might be worth asking him more about that.

Shanxi Mantis is also very different again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwiprXzWVCI looks a lot like Xingyi.

xiao_yao · August 3, 2015, 8:53am

Darin, I think Kevin was calling the article in question Pseudo-history, nothing to do with you personally.

Tainan_Mantis · August 3, 2015, 2:15pm

Darin,
Great collection of information that you have assembled here. I was motivated enough to make a post…

This sentience…

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1285551]
This sort of pseudo history is harmful. Trying to elevate your own family tradition by cobbling together bits of folklore and history and hoping the readers don’t look to closely.[/QUOTE]

…is to directed to any person who writes any controversial or non-verifiable sort history on Wang Lang, or any other martial arts figure, without giving their sources.

I keep reading from so many sources that Wang Lang is ‘this guy’ or Wang Lang is ‘that guy.’ How are we supposed to know which is the correct Wang Lang? Your listing of specific legends is a good way to try and track it down but…

Not one single bit of Mantis history that I have seen have touched on the fact that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren was a fan of poetry and theater. He left behind a large body of work and sprinkled it with references to poetry from the Tang Dynasty and popular story telling during his lifetime.

I have spent the last ten years tracking down these sources. I feel like driftwood on an ocean…not a single historian has taken to looking at the literary context of martial writings. The Ming dynasty history of martial arts with strong literary connections starts with General Qi Jiguang and his reference to Chen Xiang, a popular story of the time. Even the great Meir Shahar has missed Shaolin’s idolization of Sun Wukong and Er Lang during the Ming (last I checked).

Though Mantis is a Qing dynasty creation some aspects are solidly based in the Ming era.

Today I took from the Local University library a series of copies of woodblock printings of masters of the mantis family tree. The goal is to incorporate this into a book of Mantis and verify that, yes, these characters were popular in the Ming dynasty and were the stars of literature.

More later…

mooyingmantis · August 4, 2015, 1:09am

[QUOTE=Maofei;1285553]In Shandong there are typically four different stories about the legend of Wang Lang and people tend to mix them together.
One story attributes Wang Lang as Yu Qi who went on to become an abbot of Huayan temple on Lao Mountain. Today there is a statue there for Yu Qi which people often refer to as the Wang Lang statue.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as coming from Jimo county in Shandong and creating Mantis Boxing in Shaolin temple.
Another story attributes Wang Lang as Wang Wencheng from Chunhua county in Shaanxi province.
The last story attributes Wang Lang as Da Dao. The same Da Dao from the stories we hear of Li Bingxiao.
Not everyone understands that there are four different legends which are told in Shandong about Wang Lang.
Master Tunks briefly mentioned “historicity of WL is still debatable”. It was my intention to let the reader know a little bit more about the debate that Master Tunks was referring to. In doing so I mentioned that there were four legends and gave a little bit of detail on the Yu Qi legend. That detail from the Yu Qi legend and the information that I posted in the Mantis Quarterly forum does not come from the article you linked to which is:
http://csxb.bandao.cn/data/20130730/html/18/content_1.html
I barely glanced at this link and had little interest in even looking at it.
There is a group of people who claim they are actually the descendents of Yu Mengxi. They have done quite a thorough and detailed job of researching and writing about him and the uprisings.

In the Mantis Quarterly posting I also listed some sources they used for their information which are:
Cihai
• Chinese history Ming and Qing history
Chinese history people big dictionary
Yu Qi fighting the Qing annals
Xixia county annals

However, I am familiar with some of the speculation in Shandong about Sheng Xiao Daoren. I wrote: “There are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pen name of Sheng Xiao Daoren. There are, however, other differing speculations.” all of which is true in that there are some people in Shandong who speculate that Li Bingxiao wrote using the pseudonym Sheng Xiao Daoren. It is also true that some people have different speculations about the situation as well. I am agreeing with Master Tunks when he says “The history of Sheng Xiao Daoren is debatable” and only slightly elaborated on one thought that some people have. I myself do not have this thought and I do not believe that Li Bingxiao wrote under the pseudonym of Sheng Xiao Daoren at all. It certainly was not my intention in the slightest bit to try to “elevate your own family tradition”.

Darin / Maofei[/QUOTE]

Fascinating stuff Darin! Thank you!

mooyingmantis · August 4, 2015, 1:40am

[QUOTE=Tainan Mantis;1285558]Not one single bit of Mantis history that I have seen have touched on the fact that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren was a fan of poetry and theater. He left behind a large body of work and sprinkled it with references to poetry from the Tang Dynasty and popular story telling during his lifetime. [/QUOTE]

Your work in this area is interesting.

Maofei · August 4, 2015, 5:53am

Brothers,
Thank you for the great support and for the clarification.

Since everyone seems alright and encouraging here’s a little more info:
If Wang Lang and research are the topic: I havent seen anyone mention a supposedly real person named Wang Lang (using instead of ) from Shandong province from the three kingdoms period named Wang Yan, style name Jingxing (Wang Jingxing) whose granddaughter Wang Yuanji went on to marry Sima Zhou whose son Sima Yan became the first emperor of the Jin Dynasty Jin Wu Di Emperor Wu of Jin.

Additionally he is found in the famous Chinese classical work of fiction: Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

Ive researched him in depth myself and written a lot privately on the subject so the above info is just a small intro.

You can read an overview about it if you would like:
http://baike.baidu.com/subview/109690/5566018.htm

You will find the sources listed as well.

One source used for Wang Langs name being Wang Yan:
···

Not that this real Wang Lang from the three kingdoms period created mantis boxing. But, you never know, someone could always later speculate that his history or appearing in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms could have had an effect in the creation of the Wang Lang legends.

It was said “Wang Lang is not Yuqi, but there was a confusion about who these two people were so they have been mixed up.” Maybe the above info is what was being referred to. This Wang Lang also helped lead some battles just as Yu Qi did. However, this Wang Lang was primarily a politician.

Warm regards,
-Darin / Maofei

Tainan_Mantis · August 4, 2015, 10:22am

[INDENT] “”

As for Yu Qi’s “inspiration of the mantis fist from observing a mantis seize
a cicada,” at present there is no written documentation to prove this.
But, to trace the family history of Yu Qi and its relationship to popular
folk legends we can confirm without a doubt that the story of Yu Qi creating
Mantis fist at Lao Shan is true.
[/INDENT]

And with logic like this all credibility goes out the window. This is historical analysis at its worst.

A proper article would first seek to establish who he is. Then try to make a connection between him and whoever from some old text that is publicly available.

But a story that starts out with, “This is what I heard as a kid when the Liberation Army came to town in 1947 (over 300 years have passed)…” is not believable. So, for this reason I am reserving judgement until something more concrete materializes that links Yu Qi to anything beyond folklore.

Topic		Replies	Views
History of Praying mantis time line? Northern Praying Mantis	31	11508	March 7, 2009
An "Inside" scoop on Praying Mantis Northern Praying Mantis	23	3639	January 11, 2001
Some research notes concerning Tang Lang Northern Praying Mantis	51	9711	March 21, 2007
Yantai Beng Bu Genesis Northern Praying Mantis	44	11257	October 25, 2003
Wang Lang Mantis Origins Northern Praying Mantis	13	7310	September 30, 2010

oldest style of mantis around

Related topics