[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1299528]
Some online research about the disappearance of the Bagua Zhang stepping and Millhouse grinding palmstrike in the Leung Jan Wing Chun Lineage practice : https://books.google.com/books?id=c0UJzEb7ApkC&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=Bagua+Zhang+millstone+palm&source=bl&ots=QXi0jkMjSP&sig=8lrDHCEbu5AqCI94bmTPvNpCx6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzq4q-6qfRAhVVHGMKHQ7ABd4Q6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=Bagua%20Zhang%20millstone%20palm&f=false[/QUOTE]
what makes you think it was LJ?
Hey, TDO ! Thanks for asking as to the Bagua Zhang Millhouse palm strike contained in the Lueng Jan Lineage. As it would have been a few years ago since I posted on this thread and have stopped doing any WingChun research over a year ago I do remember the millhouse plam strike being mentioned in literature in reference to Master Leung Jan. However, It seems like a long shot that the technique would be anything like the form technique used in the circle walking/ stepping art of Bagua Zhang. I have deleted that post as well as a few others in this thread where content access is no longer available. Please forgive the confusion.
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318802] Hey, TDO ! Thanks for asking as to the Bagua Zhang Millhouse palm strike contained in the Lueng Jan Lineage. As it would have been a few years ago since I posted on this thread and have stopped doing any WingChun research over a year ago I do remember the millhouse plam strike being mentioned in literature in reference to Master Leung Jan. However, It seems like a long shot that the technique would be anything like the form technique used in the circle walking/ stepping art of Bagua Zhang. I have deleted that post as well as a few others in this thread where content access is no longer available. Please forgive the confusion.[/QUOTE]
no worries.. thought you may have found it in a non LJ line.. it seems to me the circle walking is there.. just all jumbled up lol.
ive always wanted to learn the circle walking just to see ")
Hey, TDO ! Nope, never heard of the use of the Millhouse palm-strike anywhere else but incorporated into the BaguaZhang style, my thoughts at the time leaned heavily towards thinking that the only thing in common between the two completely different styles was the name of the technique only. In my lineage there was the āred sand palmā fhat was taught to Yuen Kay San by one of his masters. It is questionable now-a-days if anyone practices to perfection this technique or the use of throwing darts that were signature to this lineage of WingChun.
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318809] Hey, TDO ! Nope, never heard of the use of the Millhouse palm-strike anywhere else but incorporated into the BaguaZhang style, my thoughts at the time leaned heavily towards thinking that the only thing in common between the two completely different styles was the name of the technique only[/QUOTE]
ah.. i should point out that i dont think they are related. just that if you put all the steps together.. or a better way of, maybe, thinking about is if you were to deconstruct the circle walking and adapt it to.. say, a boat you could end up with the footwork in wing chin, far fetched I know. haha
no doubt if I tried walking the circle that thought would be wiped out my mind lol
hadnāt heard of red sand palm Before, so I had to look it up thereā¦ do you practice iron palm or the darts?
No , have not developed any interest in either of those skills. Back in those days (my grandfatherās generation, ( Iām 68 yrs old ) those would be the sort of skills that a Kung Fu Master in China would have kept under his hat. These days I try not to ad any new injuries that would handicap me if I needed to respond quickly to a situation (self-defense or protecting others).
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318826]These days I try not to ad any new injuries [/QUOTE]
a know the feeling lol
the darts sound interesting.. could make some money down the pub lol
i take it theres no form, just a skill?
Master Yuen Kay San would demonstrate the skill by taking out birds on the wing. To demonstrate the Red Sand Palm skill he would penetrate a burlap sack of rice with a sword -hand strike and retrieve a coin that had been placed inside.
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318846] Master Yuen Kay San would demonstrate the skill by taking out birds on the wing. To demonstrate the Red Sand Palm skill he would penetrate a burlap sack of rice with a sword -hand strike and retrieve a coin that had been placed inside.[/QUOTE]
thats up there with the atom being able to hammer in nails with his palm lol a wonder if these people were able to write in their old age
You will read about some of the things the old masters (born before 1900) would say about techniques that required extreme conditioning to pull them off, the kind of stuff you would see in the old Shaw Brothers movies. I think there was pretty much an understanding that if you did not adhere to a very strict regimen in order to develop these skillsā¦ you would end up in bad shape if you slacked off in any way. Some of these technique skills are not made public, even to this day.
I have a pdf somewhere about such methodsā¦ all of them take years to acquireā¦ and have claims that are impossible, the writer includes a picture of his messed up hand, which he claims was because he stopped training
l seen a video.. think it may have been on yt showing a way of conditioning your palms, without a sand bag, but using your own hands, one hand hits another.. seems a bit smarter
Hey, T.D.O. Interesting that you have mentioned the moderate practice of short range fist striking palm for conditioning to keep your hands ( bones,veins,nerves) in shape. Also striking the āback-fistā part of your hand in the same manner. These exercises make a nice splatting sound. Iāve been doing this for years with the addition of using a palm/fingers striking slap to the forearms (upper ridge) to condition against the pain/ temporary paralysis that can occur from an opponentās strike. Also, upper arm slaps to the upper arm ont the shoulder.
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318897] Hey, T.D.O. Interesting that you have mentioned the moderate practice of short range fist striking palm for conditioning to keep your hands ( bones,veins,nerves) in shape. Also striking the āback-fistā part of your hand in the same manner. These exercises make a nice splatting sound. Iāve been doing this for years with the addition of using a palm/fingers striking slap to the forearms (upper ridge) to condition against the pain/ temporary paralysis that can occur from an opponentās strike.[/QUOTE]
you know.. its something, Iāve never really done, I may start lol we used to slap our inner thighs in class for that reason, i kinda stuck with it for a bit.. but because i only ever done it in class, and Iāve not been for some time, Iāve forgot about it till now
Hi, PalmStriker and T.D.O:
Im not a Wing Chun practitioner (Im a CLF practitioner, among other things), but I thought Id share. I have been using a similar-sounding hand conditioning method of striking my hands against each other. I actually started doing it on my own years ago. I train the palm heels, palm edges, flat palms (for power slaps), hammer fists, and hammer fists to palm heels. Then I support my weight on my first two (index and middle finger) knuckles (similar to a push-up position, but without doing push-ups) on a linoleum floor for a couple minutes, to condition the foreknuckles and wrist alignment for straight punches. Been doing this for quite some time. Even though its far less extreme than many methods, I still apply jow before and after, and carefully massage, stretch, and shake out my hands, and do arm swings afterwards.
For my forearms, I use an Iron Arm Conditioning Hammer on the ulnar and radial (boney) sides, as well as on the muscle/back area of the forearms. Followed by hitting my forearms against each other (using light to moderate force). Also some slapping/palm heels to the forearm muscles. Again, I use jow for that, too. The only problem with the Iron Arm conditioning hammer is that it makes a loud clacking sound; not good if you share space with or around others. I dont, so its not a problem for me.
These methods work well. I practice them about 4 days/week.
Two days/week, I also train grip strength. I use Heavy Grips. Not too much and not too crazy. Im currently working on the 200-pound unit. I have others that are higher (they increase by 50 pound increments), but Im not in a hurry to get there, and dont want to strain or injure my hands, or develop tendinitis. I warm up for that by squeezing tennis balls and even squeezing my hands together as hard as possible for 30-second sets. You dont want to jump into using the Heavy Grip units without warming your hands up first, and only do low reps.
Then a couple days a week I strike a BOB dummy.
My training isnt nearly as much as what I did in younger years, but at 57, I would rather be able to do some training than none at all. Of course, the above isnt all of what I do, only my own hand/forearm conditioning methods.
Hey, Jimbo ! I would say you are right up there at 57 doing the workout regimen you detailed. Yeah, I like hammer fist too and will hit that into the mitt. Sounds like you could keep going like that for another ten years, easily given good health. As you get older you will loose strength gradually, as well as endurance, hut speed will always be on your side from muscle memory alone. The body conditioning stuff makes sense as your nerves and exterior skin surface absorb the contact given that is used for preventative therapy. I donāt do any additional lifting as I am still working a good bit physically throughout the week at age 68. Gripping and grasping weights also good to hear about.
for grip training.. I hang from a pull up bar, gets a few more body parts done at the same time.. finger tip push ups (against a wall, not mad enough to go to the floor yet) to help balance things out a bit, the bar for second, but every now and again every day, helps stretch vertebra and intercostal alike as well.. Iām not a fan of grippers, mines were pretty weak, but It felt like reps gave me more fatigue than hanging does, though it didnāt help that I was a cable puller at the time lol
finger tip push ups are 2 sets low reps.. like 3-5 depending on how cold my hands are, but really slow trying to squeeze every bit of gain out of an easy exercise
a lot of arm swinging qi gong, Jam Jong with intention in the palms and fingers, which Iāve only recently got back into, so itās not long before fatigue sets in :eek:
[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1318910] Hey, Jimbo ! I would say you are right up there at 57 doing the workout regimen you detailed. Yeah, I like hammer fist too and will hit that into the mitt. Sounds like you could keep going like that for another ten years, easily given good health. As you get older you will loose strength gradually, as well as endurance, hut speed will always be on your side from muscle memory alone. The body conditioning stuff makes sense as your nerves and exterior skin surface absorb the contact given that is used for preventative therapy. I donāt do any additional lifting as I am still working a good bit physically throughout the week at age 68. Gripping and grasping weights also good to hear about.[/QUOTE]
For the most part, I still have my hand speed and reaction timing, and my strikes havent lost any power, I just dont train as much as before, and now I listen to my body and dont take it for granted anymore. Motivation becomes more of a challenge, especially when training around an old injury. My cardio is nowhere near what it was. I used to incorporate lots of running (distance and wind sprints), but for many years now I just walk instead. Ive always walked a lot, anyway. Not as stressful on the body, and Im not training for any competitions.
I used to work with weights, too, but in 2018 I had an operation to fix a hernia that reopened again after about 50+ years. If this repair lasts as long as the original did, Im set for life as far as hernia repairs go. But I never got back into using weights again after recovering from the surgery. Part of my grip routine in the past was training fu jow (tiger claw) by holding good-sized weighted jars by the lip of the jar. These jars were similar to the type used by many Okinawa karate practitioners.
[QUOTE=T.D.O;1318913]for grip training.. I hang from a pull up bar, gets a few more body parts done at the same time.. finger tip push ups (against a wall, not mad enough to go to the floor yet) to help balance things out a bit, the bar for second, but every now and again every day, helps stretch vertebra and intercostal alike as well.. Iām not a fan of grippers, mines were pretty weak, but It felt like reps gave me more fatigue than hanging does, though it didnāt help that I was a cable puller at the time lol
finger tip push ups are 2 sets low reps.. like 3-5 depending on how cold my hands are, but really slow trying to squeeze every bit of gain out of an easy exercise
a lot of arm swinging qi gong, Jam Jong with intention in the palms and fingers, which Iāve only recently got back into, so itās not long before fatigue sets in :eek:[/QUOTE]
Hanging from a pull-up bar, or doing pull-ups, is a great way to work grip strength and other things. I havent done those in years, because I have no access to a pull-up bar.
The type of grippers I use are Heavy Grips. Theyre totally different from the cheap, weak gripping devices youll find in sporting goods stores. These are for hardcore grip development. You do not want to use high reps with them, and you dont want to train with them more than two or three times/week. They are not designed for high reps. If you can easily squeeze the handles together ten times, youre ready to move up to the next tension level. I have Heavy Grips for up to 350 lbs of pressure, but am still working on the 200 lbs one (which isnt considered too high up for hardcore grip enthusiasts, but is still quite hard for the average man). I wont even touch the 250 lbs one (the next one up). Many years ago, when I started using the Heavy Grips (at the beginner level), I tried too much too soon and got tendinitis in the palms of my hands. It took about a year or more before I dared try the Heavy Grip again. I learned that less really is more. These grippers also give your fingers calluses; they are not comfortable to use when you first start using them; they have a rough, knurled texture. I work as a professional massage therapist (or I did, before Covid), which in itself also strengthens your hands and body, and training with the Heavy Grips made a noticeable difference for me.
I used to incorporate fingertip pushups on the floor, especially with cat stretch-style pushups, but no longer do that. There are several things I used to do that I simply dropped as Ive gotten older and my motivations have changed. Its good to start on a wall like you are doing. Looks like you have a good routine going there.
[\QUOTE]I work as a professional massage therapist (or I did, before Covid), which in itself also strengthens your hands.[/QUOTE]
I bet.. my hands get sore just doing my own shoulders lol
my sifu was a tui na practitioner, he showed me how strong his fingers were by getting me to palm strike them.. think I felt it more than he did