No Weights Workout

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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dale

shawn slonsky told me he called you. he is my teacher. what he has taught me over the years no one can replace. he is awsome. he has trained me in the manner that he was trained by his teacher (gm chicoine) . sometimes its hard , very painful , but very rewarding. he holds nothing back,and he makes his students earn everthing, nothing is given. he is very old school. if i want a video of him or teacher or chang doing something i’m being taught i have to earn it before i get a copy , and that does not mean i always get a video either. shawn always refers to teacher for everthing he teaches. he respects gm chicoine in very high regard never giving credit to himself. my involvement on the forums is for a feel of what others (like yourself ) that have studied with gm chicoine or his students and in the manner he teaches feel about what they have learned , and how they feel about it being public. i think from reading other threads you posted in the past you sound like a good guy. i am no one. and care not to be. i am no rank, and have no desire for it or a belt. the knowledge is good enough for me. i have nothing to prove to anyone other than my teacher, and hopefully someday through my teachers teachings be able to show what he has pasted to me to his teacher . that i think would be cool . the information of the arts this school has is awsome . if gm chicoine said put something on video. great,if he did not than that sucks for everone else who had to earn the priveledge to train with gm chicoine and his students to obtain these treasures. hell dale don’t be suprised if Brian Gray and Jim Lacy allready have there nww videos and are revamping them into their cirliculum(spelling) as we speak.(your worst nightmare) lol. if you don’t see it the way i do who cares. everyone sees things different anyway.

truely yours internet coward.

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[QUOTE=green_willow;652377]Definately no weights work out can be substituted with high reps of light weights or push ups with stance training.

Dale Douglas,

You’re a brave man for wandering out of topic. don’t let your bravery lead you astray.[/QUOTE]

Ok…here’s my take.
I too have done both types of training…and there is a difference.

Weights ( Lifting Heavy, Low Reps.and infrequently( alot of lifters just dont give their muscles enough time to recover..Body Builders mostly…Power Lifters know that they can work a Body Part twice a week with fierce intensity and heavy weights…and get stong.)…this type of lifting will get you Big & Strong.

The best way I know to explain the difference is in explaining ( briefly) what most
TMA Practioners already know…I’ll use The 8 Basic Static Stances practiced by most Old Style Shaolin type Martial Arts.

As you gradually increase your [b]time holding the static Horse, Cat, Twist, Crane, ect…Stance…your brain tells your Muscle Fibers to go deeper into the Muscle depth, to contact MORE muscle Fibers as time goes on

This is a slow and patient process…but after a few years you literally are using alot closer to ALL of your Muscles, ( down to the Bone so to speak) when you strike .

This training is not easy…it requires diligence, patience, perseverance and gradual..but continuous lowering of your body…thus placing more weight on the Muscles as you hold your Stances for 3 minutes each…then 5…then 10..ect.. also I might add..if you have been taught correctly, your arms are pulled back with your fists closed at about upper-chest level.

This is working your Upperbody while Stance Training.

I cannot describe the difference …I am strong when I lift..and I am strong when I consistantly practice my Stances, Arm Grabs, Tiger, and a few other power Building exercises, ALL ON TOP of the 1 &1/2 hour Workout on Tokens, 3 Star Blocks and two man drills.

Weight lifting is a 'different kind of strength"..so I do both.
I warm up carefully with stances FIRST…( This warms your body from the inside out)…then intermix Heavy Weights with low reps ( 6-8) at 80% Maximum of my one rep Ability.

I personally add Heavy Bag and Speed Bag work to my training.
Mastor Ong never approved of that, because by hitting a Heavy Bag you are
[b]Limiting...in  your mind ...your Punching Power [/b] And we were taught to punch [b]through our targets [/b]...not just make contact, but actually [b]aim on the other side of the persons body[/b]..thus punching through the target.

Using tradition and Weight training together is a great workout.

I would caution to also do alot of stretching before, during and after…THAT avoids the chances if injury.

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All I have to say is that IronFist knows his shit when it comes to lifting/wieght training.

Don’t question that…

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[QUOTE=Akronviper;637765]
If only muscle worked so simply. I’m not trying to say that there is some magic working here but there are differnt types of muscle fibers ex: slow twitch and fast twitch. differnt excercises recrcuit differnt fibers. if muscle contraction was the end all of strength excercises then every one would just flex constantly and look like arnold. Football players use weight lifting along with polymetric excercises and isometric excercises to round out there training. Why because weights alone can not work the whole muscle.

anyways this thread kind of ran off track. its about the the NWW system and any results, some bodys had to try them, also do differnt styles incorporate isometric excercises.[/QUOTE]
LOL @ “polymetric” exercises.

And even more LOL @ anyone thinking you can somehow tease out the tendons separately from the muscle fibers to specifically strengthen tendon- true cluelessness that show absolutely no knowledge of muscle function or even basic mechanics.

Slow twitch (oxidative) fibers respond to low loads, fast twitch (fast glycolytic and fast oxidative glycolytic) fibers respond to high and medium high loads and/or fast movements. The type of exercise has no bearing, other than whether or not it places a high load or is done explosively.

As far as holding stances, that type of training builds up one’s muscular endurance at that specific joint angle and a few degrees in each direction from that angle. Very little strength is accomplished with this, unless your definition of strength is the ability to hold the stance for longer and longer periods.

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[QUOTE=GreenCloudCLF;651503]modern research shows that if you are flexing your muscle, be it to show off your “guns”, lift a brick, or a 50# DB, the entire muscle is used. EVERY fiber activates to assist with the tension. The reason weights get you bigger faster is because you are microtearing your muscles more. The extra weight is increasing the damage. (which is why some body weight people say wieght lifting is bad and is more likely to cause an accident.)[/QUOTE]

Moderate weight (those that fatigue the fibers in the range of 8-12 reps), with short rest periods, done in multiple sets provide the biggest stimulus for muscle growth.

High resistances (those that fatigue the fibers in the range of 1-5 reps) with long recovery periods provide the most stimulus for strength gains and do not provide as much stimulus for muscle growth (hypertrophy).

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;732910]Moderate weight (those that fatigue the fibers in the range of 8-12 reps), with short rest periods, done in multiple sets provide the biggest stimulus for muscle growth.

High resistances (those that fatigue the fibers in the range of 1-5 reps) with long recovery periods provide the most stimulus for strength gains and do not provide as much stimulus for muscle growth (hypertrophy).[/QUOTE]

agreed 110% but id add that heavy squats and pulls tend to stimulate more release of testosterone than jessica alba in a wet tshirt with an open beer. while not hypertrophy, this does stimulate groth. now thank me for over complicating your point.

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Stance Training

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;732901]…As far as holding stances, that type of training builds up one’s muscular endurance at that specific joint angle and a few degrees in each direction from that angle. Very little strength is accomplished with this, unless your definition of strength is the ability to hold the stance for longer and longer periods.[/QUOTE]

I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps …3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only…they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion…Stance Training does increase strenth.

 JD
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[QUOTE=JDK;733084]I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps …3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only…they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion…Stance Training does increase strenth.

 JD[/QUOTE]

can you point to that study somewhere?

I’ve adopted a no weights program that I recommend to my beginning students. It’s based on Workout #1 at www.trainforstrength.com

I think that for the average person, most especially the kung fu neophyte who has their head full of dreams of Bruce Lee, bodyweight exercises are the place to start because most of the time these newbies can’t do a single set of 25 anything (pushups, hindus, bootstrappers) much less have any strength for pullups.

So, for this group of people aspiring to be martial artists BW will show raw strength gains as well as endurance. My experience over the last 2 years is if my students stick with the program they will plateau in raw strength in about 3-4 months and then they will only be increasing their conditioning. At that point, they can add weight training to their program.

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[QUOTE=IronFist;637576]Tendon’s cannot flex.

Your muscles don’t care if they’re contracting against iron, your own bodyweight, an opponent, or anything else. They know how to contract and relax. Nothing else.

Muscle 1: “Hey, tendons, wake up!!! This guy is doing body weight exercises!! You need to start strengthening!!”

Tendons: “Oh, geez, thanks man. We thought he was lifting weights and we were just going to sit here and not do anything.”

Muscle 2: “Man, you guys sure are lazy.”

:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

hahahahahaha, now this is funny.
and it’s funny because it’s true.

bodyweight workouts are great, but they are not superior to anything. in fact the only thing that is superior is the correct v the incorrect. arguing for or against different effective exercises is silliness. The heeght of it. People that advise against the use of weights simply don’t use them, have used them incorrectly and damaged themselves or are just plain talking out their ass.

advocates of weights who say they are superior are also talking out their ass. They are just another way of getting strength.

I personally prefer functional strength development or those types of stresses that develop strength in such a way that I can have optimal power while doing what I do. iE: to root, to push, to pull, to strike and so on.

50

I like BW exercises for one simple reason:

I always have the gear I need to do them.

I also enjoy extra body weights (vest, ankles, wrists) because I can do what I would normally do anyway, only weigh more doing it.

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[QUOTE=JDK;733084]I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps …3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only…they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion…Stance Training does increase strenth.

 JD[/QUOTE]

yeah but thats like saying that doing squats will make me kick harder. it will help now doubt, but there is only so much carry over. if i really wanted to kick harder id kick a lot. weight training would supplament that.

also if that is a real test that woman would have been a terrible subject for it . her body had no base of strength to begin with if she was leg pressing 145lbs for sets of 10. it might not be all that bad for someone rolling off the couch to do them for the first time, but she certainly wouldnt qualify as a strength athlete so why use her as the subject. thats like taking a guy you work with who’s weak as ****, testing his bench, having him do pushups for 6 months, and then concluding that pushups will add pounds to your bench press. all your’e proving is that if you take someone weak and make them exercise they’ll get stronger.

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I hate jumping into these conrtoversial threads…but here goes:

I have done weight training AND tension exercises. The weights gave me the most mass increase (important for combat), and the most increase in strength for lifting.

The tension exercise gave me SOME strength and mass but it conditioned the target body parts (the ones moving, since everything is under tension).

By conditioned I mean it ‘hardened’ my forearms. This caused my forearms to be resistant to damage when struck, and they caused damage when they struck the arms of others. I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc…as hard as they could. No damage…no bruising. Forearm specific weight training was unable to provide results like these.

Invaluable for blocking and striking. It also gave me a rock solid grip. Weight training is a good supplement to tension training, but not a replacement.

So, before the skeptics and bashers jump in and start poking fun…I’m not trying to sell you anything, or deceive anyone…I just want you to know that it works.

So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.

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[QUOTE=IronWeasel;733121]I hate jumping into these conrtoversial threads…but here goes:

I have done weight training AND tension exercises. The weights gave me the most mass increase (important for combat), and the most increase in strength for lifting.

The tension exercise gave me SOME strength and mass but it conditioned the target body parts (the ones moving, since everything is under tension).

By conditioned I mean it ‘hardened’ my forearms. This caused my forearms to be resistant to damage when struck, and they caused damage when they struck the arms of others. I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc…as hard as they could. No damage…no bruising. Forearm specific weight training was unable to provide results like these.

Invaluable for blocking and striking. It also gave me a rock solid grip. Weight training is a good supplement to tension training, but not a replacement.

So, before the skeptics and bashers jump in and start poking fun…I’m not trying to sell you anything, or deceive anyone…I just want you to know that it works.

So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.[/QUOTE]

dude…if i hit your forearm with a baseball bat at full force, i can guarantee you that no matter how tough you think your arm is, it will break. :stuck_out_tongue:

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[QUOTE=JDK;733084]I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps …3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only…they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion…Stance Training does increase strenth.

 JD[/QUOTE]

LOL @ a “group of physicians and Martial Artists”.

Their “conclusion” was far from anything close to what would be considered scientific support either for or against stance training.

Here are just some of the reasons:

  • A “study group” of only one.
  • No control comparison group.
  • No statistical analysis.
  • Not published in any peer reviewed scientific journal.

Taking a sedentary person and adding just about any kind of exercise will usually improve his or her strength in the beginning, no matter what the exercise.

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[QUOTE=Oso;733093]can you point to that study somewhere?[/QUOTE]
Of course he can’t. That was not anything close to being scientifically valid.

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[QUOTE=IronWeasel;733121]I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc…as hard as they could. No damage…no bruising. [/QUOTE]
Bwahahaahahaha!!!

And people wonder why I think so many CMA guys are full of sh!t.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;733123]LOL @ a “group of physicians and Martial Artists”.

yea, sounded just like those commercials for weight loss supplements.

Taking a sedentary person and adding just about any kind of exercise will usually improve his or her strength in the beginning, no matter what the exercise.[/QUOTE]

that’s basically what I was getting at.

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[QUOTE=IronWeasel;733121]So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.[/QUOTE]
Here’s a better idea. Before someone wastes the next two to three months doing BS, pseudo-conditioning workouts, how about you post a video of someone hitting your arm full-force with a baseball bat.

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I think it’s cool that there are people trying to find more efficient ways to use calisthenics and bodyweight resistance excercises, but for raw large-muscle strength, weight lifting simply cannot be beat. No matter what funky position you put your body in, there will exist a greater amount of mechanical weight that can be put on that same large muscle group. This is why both body builders and athletes find common ground in weight training- though for different purposes. Athletes use it to supplement their training, isolating either one, or a group of large muscles to further develop those muscles. Bodybuilders isolate nearly each and every large muscle group so that they can, well, show that they have well-defined large muscle groups.

That said, my humble opinion is that BW exercise is important, but should be used for calisthenics, conditioning and endurance. Not only that, but you can work more muslce groups in unison using bodyweight excercises and better simulate less-than ideal conditions, such as being lopsided or off-balance. No matter how much weight you can lift on a machine or a barbell or dumbbell and how, the majority of the work being performed will still be on the larger muscle groups since they are working against symmetrical resistance (in most circumstances.)

In a nutshell, I believe they both have their value. Weight training is best for developing raw strength (few reps against heavy resistance) and BW is best for endurance (many reps against comparitively lighter resistance.) But that’s just me.

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[QUOTE=BlueTravesty;733140]In a nutshell, I believe they both have their value. Weight training is best for developing raw strength (few reps against heavy resistance) and BW is best for endurance (many reps against comparitively lighter resistance.) But that’s just me.[/QUOTE]
Weight lifting has one huge and overwhelming advantage over body weight exercises.

It is known as progressive resistance. Progressive resistance is what makes training with weights far superior to body weight exercises.

Your muscles, bones and tendons do not differentiate between body weight or outside resistance exercises. They only respond to loads and stressors.

Weight lifting allows you to vary the loads in almost any increment imaginable. Additionally, there is no limit to the maximum load that can be added. Body-weight exerercises are very limited in how much the loads can be varied and there is always a limit to the load that can be imposed, thus limiting the strength gains that can be achieved.

Progressive resistance is the key to maximizing strength.

Additionally, the loads imposed by weight lifting can be varied to emphasize endurance, hypertrophy, strength, or power.