Nice version of vinh xuan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1254136]Also how about the Ipman Leung bik story? That is Ipman second sifu .

In the west, some people get the distorted version of what is going on baisee. Baisee in Chinese custom means education, appreciation, and respect.[/QUOTE]

Personally I’m not a big fan of the whole Leung Bik story as I know other stories too that make much more sense (for me)

As for the multiple Baisi ‘Ceremonies’ I am sorry, for me once you are a disciple and have your Baisi witnessed in the proper manner, you would have to go through what I suggested to Baisi to another Sifu or you would not be representative of general Mo Duk.

Of course, after the Cultural Revolution it became widely accepted that a ‘student’ can train and study with as many Sifu as they like but you must be aware of the differences of sports and cultural education? This is where and how modern Wushu developed which in essence supported this ‘multi-master-style’ acceptance in the wider society.

To suggest that ‘us in the West’ have a distorted view of Baisi is a raw statement, but considering people genuinely feel a Baisi is when you offer your Sifu tea in front of a video camera on Youtube is acceptable I can totally understand your point.

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Kieth,

Everyone can has his theory as I have told some wcners lately.

But, we now know the two ancient document one predate Leung jan and one predate yks and Ipman existed.
Also we know what Chinese official history matches with which Wck legend , and what hung mun sect matches Wck lineages uprising involvement.

From these solid reference we can see what is likely to be happen and what is not.

As for the Luk sau chi sau platform ect. We know the Luk sau kuit describe the concept, the platform, the implementation. As for how one implement it , what technics is used is free choice for anyone and any situation. But the concept the power handing the line and angle has to be within the description. Otherwise it is not Luk sau of Wck as state in pre 1890 era.

IMHO, does Hendrik lineage story matter? Leung bik story matter? Technically Checking into the above “DNA” one knows what happen. Story or history or politic can never replace technical reality. And Wck is technology which rely on technical reality instead of anyone’s his - story. Knowing those stories or valid or invalidate the story doesn’t do a thing or contribute to technical issue .

As for the Luk sau chi sau issue you brought up. After I shows you by evidence the description of what is Luk sau pre 1890 from concept , platform, to details of execution in the previous post. Now I would like to ask you. Why the Luk sau chi sau you state is Luk sau chi sau of Wck? What does it do? By just playing with tan bong fuk different way? What does it achive? How does it fit in to the 1890 note description? Does it fit? If not then why is it called luk sau chi sau?

[QUOTE=KPM;1254148]Now, just to show I have no “agenda”, I thought I would throw another theory out there. :wink: Again, this is just a theory, but it might also fit with what historical evidence is currently at hand.

Yip Man is said to have studied with Leung Bik when he went to Hong Kong for school as a teenager. He only became one of the “3 heroes of Foshan” in later adult life after he returned to China. It could be that Leung Bik was a cover story for the person that YM really studied with…someone from the HFY lineage! Maybe he used Leung Bik as a cover story because the real teacher was part of the secret societies. Maybe the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform was part of HFY all along. While YM kept what he had learned in Hong Kong pretty much to himself, maybe some small things naturally came out in his Wing Chun. Maybe he shared the LuK Sao Chi Sao rolling platform with YKS rather than the other way around! Maybe Sum Nun told the story that YKS shared it with YM to save face for his teacher since YKS was technically YM’s senior.

Then an aging Yip Man is back in Hong Kong. It could be that he did not completely learn the HFY method and had even forgotten some of it by the time he is teaching in Hong Kong. But he decides to share what he remembers with William Cheung. Then William Cheung (or possibly Yip Man himself) fills in the gaps by combining it with YM WCK. So TWC and HFY share some strong similarities, but are also quite different.

If a lineage emerged from China (as the Snake Crane system recently came to public awareness) that was essentially the same or a variation on Garrett Gee’s system, then this would certainly strengthen this theory. But right now I would say it is less plausible than what we have already been discussing.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254148]Yip Man is said to have studied with Leung Bik when he went to Hong Kong for school as a teenager. He only became one of the “3 heroes of Foshan” in later adult life after he returned to China. It could be that Leung Bik was a cover story for the person that YM really studied with…someone from the HFY lineage! Maybe he used Leung Bik as a cover story because the real teacher was part of the secret societies. Maybe the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform was part of HFY all along. While YM kept what he had learned in Hong Kong pretty much to himself, maybe some small things naturally came out in his Wing Chun. Maybe he shared the LuK Sao Chi Sao rolling platform with YKS rather than the other way around! Maybe Sum Nun told the story that YKS shared it with YM to save face for his teacher since YKS was technically YM’s senior.

Then an aging Yip Man is back in Hong Kong. It could be that he did not completely learn the HFY method and had even forgotten some of it by the time he is teaching in Hong Kong. But he decides to share what he remembers with William Cheung. Then William Cheung (or possibly Yip Man himself) fills in the gaps by combining it with YM WCK. So TWC and HFY share some strong similarities, but are also quite different.

If a lineage emerged from China (as the Snake Crane system recently came to public awareness) that was essentially the same or a variation on Garrett Gee’s system, then this would certainly strengthen this theory. But right now I would say it is less plausible than what we have already been discussing.[/QUOTE]

Keith, This theory add up, because if Yip Man really learnt from Leung Bik, then the body mechanics of yip man wck should be identical to Leung Jan’s pin sun wck art and it is not. since Leung Bik would have learnt his kung fu from his father Leung Jan.

and Pin sun wck is very different From HFY

Also what do you think about my post below?

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1254054]Keith I keep repeating myself, Luk sao platform is a variation of PSWC dai lim tao, where both partners hook up both arms at the same time doing bong, tan, and fook as in the luk sao of yip man and ykswc. You can’t comment on something you’ve never seen, in fact all the two-man sets of PSWC have more than one variations of how they are performed. I would bet that you only learnt one version of each of the two-man sets from Jim.

Keith just to break it down for you

PSWC poon sao=cycling of bong, tan, fuk, huen, and a light under grab in transition

luk sao= cycling of bong, tan, fook (some linages pair fook with upper gan or kei jang)

double circling hands (sheung huen sao) =huen and a light under grab in transition

when you combine the techniques of luk sao with the tecniques and cycling of double circling hands, you end up doing the poon sao chi sao platform of PSWC.

Keith the PSWC Poon sao chi sao platform is not different, they just merged or re-packaged the two different chi sao platforms into one. Just my opinion, but I personally believe the PSWC poon sao is a much more efficient training method. But the other 2 chi sao platform are still valid in case one needs to develop the specific skill that those 2 platforms focus on.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254041]And I’ve explained that I’m not concerned about terminology. I asked before and you didn’t answer, so I’ll ask again and little more clearly.
[/quote]
Well, maybe other people ARE concerned about terminology, strategy, approach, and a dozen other things that come into play besides the shape of the instruments used.

Why are you not concerned about these things, and overtly concerned about and directing the examination to the shape of things only?

In HFY, do you use a basic Chi Sao rolling platform consisting of one arm rolling between Bong Sao and Tan Sao on the inside while the other arm follows the partner’s Bong/Tan with a Fook Sao on the outside?

Usually only when interacting with other WCK families, most especially those that use the Luk Sao training platform like Yip Man lineages. That basic chi sau rolling platform in most WCK lineages is usually one of the 3 main components of WCK training (forms, dummy, chi sau). It is not in HFY.

This is why Eric is answering you about the different approaches. But apparently you don’t understand that - maybe it’s too foreign of a concept to you. Maybe you’ll get it now. In HFY classes and instruction there just isn’t the standard rolling platform taught, drilled, etc. Sifu Gee teaches that you don’t just compliantly allow someone to step up to you in square stance and lock up a bong/tan into your bridge. In a realistic situation, even getting there would have to be earned.

That said, do students/teachers roll with that platform on their own, with friends, with others in the WCK community? Sure they do. As you said, sifu Gee does that at friendship seminars, and with visitors sometimes, etc.

Is that a little more clear for you?

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254076]Was that a “yes” or a “no”, because I can’t really tell!! I pulled my copy of “Mastering Kung Fu” by Garrett Gee, Benny Meng, and Richard Loewenhagen off the shelf tonight. I hadn’t looked at it in a long time. I flipped it open and almost immediately came to page 57. There is a photo showing Gee and Loewenhagen standing facing each other. Gee has his right hand in Taan, while Loewenhagen is in Fook. Gee’s left hand is in Fook on Loewenhagen’s Bong. Identical position to YKS/YM “Luk Sao Chi Sao.” Identical structure that I rolled with Garrett Gee. So I’ll ask again, since the above comment didn’t really seem to answer the question.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah. So I looked at p. 57 of the book. It looks like 4 guys standing around while sifus Gee and Loewenhagen are touching hands. We don’t really know what they are doing, as the caption of the photo, along with the point of the photo is to communicate hou chou san sau - teaching one on one as opposed to the shapes their arms are expressing in the picture. Not coincidentally, that is also the title of the sub-heading of the section of the book the picture appears in.

In HFY, do you use a basic Chi Sao rolling platform consisting of one arm rolling between Bong Sao and Tan Sao on the inside while the other arm follows the partner’s Bong/Tan with a Fook Sao on the outside?

It sounds to me like the answer you are looking for is yes, but the truth is the answer is no. You are just looking at shapes and jumping to a conclusion. For example, on p.137 of the book there are similar hand shapes (not identical) but the people are practicing kiu sau (which IS one of the 3 pillars of HFY chi sau).

But then again, you have the book, so you probably know this, or have read it. So are you really looking for an answer to this or are you just going to continue to ask the question until you get the answer that you think you want?

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So I looked at p. 57 of the book. It looks like 4 guys standing around while sifus Gee and Loewenhagen are touching hands. We don’t really know what they are doing,

Sure. But it seems to me more than a coincidence that it looks exactly like “Luk Sao Chi Sao”!

You are just looking at shapes and jumping to a conclusion. For example, on p.137 of the book there are similar hand shapes (not identical) but the people are practicing kiu sau (which IS one of the 3 pillars of HFY chi sau).

Yes, I did see that.

So are you really looking for an answer to this or are you just going to continue to ask the question until you get the answer that you think you want?

No, it seems that the answer is “yes, sometimes.” I’m good with that. Thanks!

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Keith, This theory add up, because if Yip Man really learnt from Leung Bik, then the body mechanics of yip man wck should be identical to Leung Jan’s pin sun wck art and it is not. since Leung Bik would have learnt his kung fu from his father Leung Jan.

Yes, that’s what I’ve thought for a long time. If what William Cheung is doing was taught to him by Yip Man, then it couldn’t have been Leung Bik that taught it to Yip Man.


Also what do you think about my post below?

Good post. I’ve been thinking about it.

Keith I keep repeating myself, Luk sao platform is a variation of PSWC dai lim tao, where both partners hook up both arms at the same time doing bong, tan, and fook as in the luk sao of yip man and ykswc. You can’t comment on something you’ve never seen, in fact all the two-man sets of PSWC have more than one variations of how they are performed. I would bet that you only learnt one version of each of the two-man sets from Jim.

This part I already addressed. If someone is now doing a two-man version of the DLT San Sik with both arms, how can we know that it isn’t a modern innovation based on seeing Yip Man people doing rolling hands Chi Sao? Because haven’t seen this in what Pin Sun examples I’ve encountered. Jim would be the guy to ask about this.

Keith the PSWC Poon sao chi sao platform is not different, they just merged or re-packaged the two different chi sao platforms into one.

You make a good point, and I’m almost ready to follow your thinking. Almost. :slight_smile: How do we know that the Luk Sao rolling platform and the Huen Sao rolling platform existed independantly of each and were around for Pin Sun to combine? And to clarify, I’m talking about the physical rolling method when I say “Luk Sao” and not the conceptual method Hendrik has been talking about. The basic “Huen Sao” roll is very similar to the Pin Sun version. It would be easy to “refine” it a bit to come up with the Pin Sun version without combining it with anything. The Huen Sao roll and the Pin Sun roll have a very similar energy and feel. The YSK/YM roll has a very different feel to it. I can see the Pin Sun roll easily being a more refined version of the Huen Sao roll without combining it with anything. But you do propose an interesting idea!

Just my opinion, but I personally believe the PSWC poon sao is a much more efficient training method. But the other 2 chi sao platform are still valid in case one needs to develop the specific skill that those 2 platforms focus on.

There is much more forward pressure in the YKS/YM roll than in either the Huen Sao roll or the Pin Sun roll. So, depending on what your emphasis or strategy may be, one may be more useful than the other. Just my opinion, but personally I see my Wing Chun as putting pressure on the opponent and breaking his structure. The YKS/YM roll is a much better platform from which to practice that than the other two.

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254245]Keith, This theory add up, because if Yip Man really learnt from Leung Bik, then the body mechanics of yip man wck should be identical to Leung Jan’s pin sun wck art and it is not. since Leung Bik would have learnt his kung fu from his father Leung Jan.[/QUOTE]

sorry above i meant “don’t add up” instead of add up

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254221]Sure. But it seems to me more than a coincidence that it looks exactly like “Luk Sao Chi Sao”!
[/quote]
No coincidence to me. Sifu Loewenhagen’s background under Meng was Moy Yat wing chun - Yip Man. They trained that platform. That photo is probably an accurate depiction of how Sifu Gee provided hands on training (hou chou san sau) to go from where his student was comfortable in Moy Yat wing chun to that which he teaches, HFY. That’s why the caption of the picture refers to hands-on training as well a the paragraph in the book surrounding it.

No, it seems that the answer is “yes, sometimes.” I’m good with that. Thanks!

No, the answer still is “no they don’t train that platform”.

But since most other WCK families do they will do friendly exchanges under the typical training format of that platform.

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Hey Anerlich, thanks for putting your 2 cents in, it’s good to hear from somebody who had a bunch of WC experience and got a genuine chance to check out what we’re doing. First round is on me if you make it stateside :slight_smile:

Dude, all WC uses Tahn/Bong/Fuk, that’s kind of a silly argument that at some point a photo of people doing WC looks like some other WC you might know. For what I think is the third time: WE DON’T DO LUK SAO BUT OUR CHI SAO CAN WORK WITH SOMEONE DOING LUK SAO.

All WC has some overlap with Tahn/Bong/Fuk, but there’s been enough presented on this thread to tell you we’re not doing any kind of looping exercise like you describe.

If you want to keep asking the same question and getting the same reply, start talking to Hendrik, the guy’s been going on and on about SNT and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for over 10 years - you guys could be made for each other. Personally, I hate repeating myself, I’m outta here.

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[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1254253]sorry above i meant “don’t add up” instead of add up[/QUOTE]

But what you said by mistake makes more sense. :wink:

because if Yip Man really learnt from Leung Bik, then the body mechanics of yip man wck should be identical to Leung Jan’s pin sun wck art and it is not. since Leung Bik would have learnt his kung fu from his father Leung Jan.

If Yip Man actually learned from Leung Bik, who was taught by Leung Jan, then you would expect that what he learned would look a lot like Pin Sun WCK. What William Cheung does looks nothing like Pin Sun WCK. So if William Cheung is truly doing what Yip Man taught him, and what Yip Man taught him was what he learned from “Leung Bik”, then this “secret teacher” couldn’t have been the real Leung Bik. It makes more sense that Leung Bik was simply a cover story for the name of a teacher that he could not reveal. So what you said makes much more sense than your correction. Because how would it not “add up”??

And I tell you what Navin. If you get Jim Roselando to say that the YKS/YM rolling platform existed in Pin Sun WCK all along, I’ll be ready to seriously consider changing my opinion. Jim knows his stuff and has been to Ku Lo village and even rolled with the old man himself before he died.

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[QUOTE=Eric_H;1254290]
If you want to keep asking the same question and getting the same reply, start talking to Hendrik, the guy’s been going on and on about SNT and Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma for over 10 years - you guys could be made for each other. Personally, I hate repeating myself, I’m outta here.[/QUOTE]

Don’t get all huffy. I asked a simple “yes” or “no” question and got a theoretical exposition on HFY theory. So I asked again to clarify. Want to talk about being made for Hendrik? Hendrik and you guys are a perfect match when it comes to putting out the high techy sounding theory that no one else is able to follow!! :wink:

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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1254255]No coincidence to me. Sifu Loewenhagen’s background under Meng was Moy Yat wing chun - Yip Man. They trained that platform. That photo is probably an accurate depiction of how Sifu Gee provided hands on training (hou chou san sau) to go from where his student was comfortable in Moy Yat wing chun to that which he teaches, HFY. That’s why the caption of the picture refers to hands-on training as well a the paragraph in the book surrounding it.

No, the answer still is “no they don’t train that platform”.

But since most other WCK families do they will do friendly exchanges under the typical training format of that platform.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your responses. That does make sense. No theoretical treatises were even necessary. :wink:

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254326]Don’t get all huffy. I asked a simple “yes” or “no” question and got a theoretical exposition on HFY theory. So I asked again to clarify.

Want to talk about being made for Hendrik? Hendrik and you guys are a perfect match when it comes to putting out the high techy sounding theory that no one else is able to follow!! ;)[/QUOTE]

Kieth,

I am doing my best to explain you things you don’t understand. From years ago and months ago why southern mantis is not Wck.

Yesterday, I make a post to explain what it is about Luk sau in Wck by evident.

Now I get this comment above from you.

Truely no one else can understand me?
Sorry, You don’t understand but doesn’t mean others.

Ask Navin. Let him tell you why you don’t understand the Luk sau kuit I post. And what am I talking about.

Finally, reading your posts. Evidence is you are promoting YKS and stepping at others lineages.

Navin,

if I were you I would not join this talk on Leung Bik, William…etc. It is none of our business , not to mention, what if it is true that Ipman Learn from Leung Bik. Also, Leung bik doesn’t have to have the same type of signature as in kulo.

How is speculating on others can learn Wck? If we can’t even develop the snake engine and perform as the Luk sau kuit of 1850? What to talk about Luk sau of Wck? One doesn’t even know wing Chu Luk sau but mimic this tan and that bong like in a movie acting.

You visited me, you can do some snake engine, you know the Jin flow. how is trying to use tan bong fok sequence or certain explicit move to justify Luk sau can even come close to the description of the Wck Luk sau kuit ?

So, if I were you, not joining this type of speculation which is the politics and agenda instead of clear things up but cause problem in Wck circle.

This type of speculation is just a superiority complex without even knowing oneself is ignorance of the art. What is this type of speculation contribute? Only negative.

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[QUOTE=KPM;1254322]But what you said by mistake makes more sense. :wink:

because if Yip Man really learnt from Leung Bik, then the body mechanics of yip man wck should be identical to Leung Jan’s pin sun wck art and it is not. since Leung Bik would have learnt his kung fu from his father Leung Jan.

If Yip Man actually learned from Leung Bik, who was taught by Leung Jan, then you would expect that what he learned would look a lot like Pin Sun WCK. What William Cheung does looks nothing like Pin Sun WCK. So if William Cheung is truly doing what Yip Man taught him, and what Yip Man taught him was what he learned from “Leung Bik”, then this “secret teacher” couldn’t have been the real Leung Bik. It makes more sense that Leung Bik was simply a cover story for the name of a teacher that he could not reveal. So what you said makes much more sense than your correction. Because how would it not “add up”??[/QUOTE]

or maybe William made up his own version of WCK for marketing purposes by claiming he was the only one taught yip Man’s secret Leung bik system which Yip did not even teach his own sons and nephew. Give me a break! I think William did much the same as what Bruce Lee did, TWC is william’s version of JKD

[QUOTE=KPM;1254322]And I tell you what Navin. If you get Jim Roselando to say that the YKS/YM rolling platform existed in Pin Sun WCK all along, I’ll be ready to seriously consider changing my opinion. Jim knows his stuff and has been to Ku Lo village and even rolled with the old man himself before he died.[/QUOTE]

Jim is not the sole authority on pin sun wck as he would like everyone on here to believe. Besides good luck trying to to get him to give you a detailed explanation on anything in PSWC.

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or maybe William made up his own version of WCK for marketing purposes by claiming he was the only one taught yip Man’s secret Leung bik system which Yip did not even teach his own sons and nephew. Give me a break! I think William did much the same as what Bruce Lee did, TWC is william’s version of JKD

That may be true as well! But remember, I said it was a historical theory that also fit with all of the available evidence and even explains why HFY would have the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform (at least when they want to) when it is otherwise not connected to the YKS/YM lineages. I also said I didn’t think it was likely true. But it does “add up” as far as fitting with the information that is currently out there. Besides, did you read what I wrote? My theory says that it wasn’t really Leung Bik at all, but an unknown teacher in the HFY lineage. Leung Bik was just a cover story.

Jim is not the sole authority on pin sun wck as he would like everyone on here to believe.

He is probably the 2nd or 3rd highest ranking guy in Pin Sun in the United States. I don’t think he ever claimed to be the “sole” authority. But he is an authority, and the only one that bothers to occasionally post on these forums.

Besides good luck trying to to get him to give you a detailed explanation on anything in PSWC.

Now that part is very true! :wink:

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I have re-posted this thread.
I will leave it closed for now.
When I have time I will go through it and delete anything I think is inflammatory.