Nice version of vinh xuan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

[QUOTE=KPM;1253623]OK, I’m kind of hesitant to say this, given the recent kumbaya moment about politics and agendas. But what the heck, this is KFO forums after all! :wink:

First. I contacted Robert. He has seen the documents that Hendrik notes. He has even visited the Snake-Crane guys that Navin mentioned. You know what his comment was? He said there would be no Luk Sao Chi Sao in the modern sense without Yuen Kay San!

Second. I’m surprised none of the Hung Fa Yi guys have commented about this point. But if, based on available evidence, it looks more and more like the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform was developed by one of the “3 heroes of Foshan”, then it begs the question…where did Garrett Gee learn it??? I have no agenda and no politics, just curious about history! ;)[/QUOTE]

Oh good lord not this again.

Listen, I wouldn’t even want to bring the guy up, but since you seem to be getting your misinformation from Robert Chu, let’s take a look at him first shall we? Robert knows less than 0.01% of Hung Fa Yi. He’s had multiple opportunities to come and see what we do - I was even in class when he called my Sifu out of the blue a few years ago to say he (Robert) was having a workshop in San Francisco and ask my Sifu about some things. I remember that my Sifu said to Robert that he was welcome to come see us and that he had a few questions to ask Robert when he saw him. Of course we all know there was never a workshop, so I guess we’re still waiting to see if Robert ever comes up this way.

Secondly, we’ve had over what, 12 chi sao workshops documented on this forum, other forums and various blogs and websites around the net. Not one of them mentions luk sao, and here’s why: “Luk” is something of a slang term, really all it means is rolling hands. Any time two WC guys do chi sao, regardless of lineage or rule set it could be considered Luk Sao. It’s in the differences, such as Hung Fa Yi’s time/space/energy chi sao or 3 bong sao focus compared to something like Moy Yat’s Teui Ma or Jip Sau Jow Sau style of training that show what our different systems are really about.

Heck, my Sifu has been to China like 10-15 times in the last 5 years, and touched hands with senior people in Sum Nung, Gu Lao and Yip Man lineages - not one of them has ever had the opinion we’re doing the same thing. Even our student Liu Wai Gai in hong kong had 30 years under Yun Kay San/Sum Nung wing chun - and from his own mouth he said it’s different… that’s from the mouth of someone truly doing the “inventor of luk sao’s” lineage for a very long time.

The Hung Fa Yi Chi Sao has no problem to interact with other people’s platforms, just because the other people call what they’re doing “Luk Sao” it doesn’t mean we’re operating under the same rules or that we would call it “Luk Sao.” I can tell you for a fact, having done both, they are not even close.

I’d take anything Robert says with a big grain of salt - I mean, ask William Cheung, Rick Spain or Moy Yat if he were still with us if they’d want to talk about that guy. I can imagine pretty clearly what the answer is.

82

[B]1. It is just a simple thing.

Accept what is there by evidence.

But lots of people can not take that. There is where the agenda and politic starts.[/B]

That’s what I’m doing Hendrik! No agenda, no politics. When I look, I do not see anyone doing the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform from the generation prior to YKS and YM.

[B]2. As for Luk sau, here is the first few line of the kuit in the next new martial hero magazine.

the kuit of Luk Sao

opponent soft I am soft
opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground [/B]

Those are rather broad and vague guidelines. They do not describe physical actions. How can you say that this is talking about the specific two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by the YKS and YM lineages? I think that’s what Robert meant when he said there would be no Luk Sao “in the modern sense” without YKS. And, as Eric pointed out, “Luk Sao” just means “rolling hands.” I have NOT been talking about rolling hands in a generic sense. I think I have been very clear to show I am talking specifically about the two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages. What you have translated above could apply equally to the “Poon Sao” type rolling platform used in Pin Sun Wing Chun and other methods that don’t roll like YKS & YM lineages.

So, how can yks invent the Luk Sao chi Sao platform when in 1890 people already record these?

How can you say that what you translated for us was a record of the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform used by YKS and YM lineages??? :confused: It may have described some of the energy exchange involved in a general sense. But there was no physical techniques in what you translated.

3. Imho, in past 60 years people just keep making lots of his- story and now cannot face reality. These days When the cards are open one by one. I know it is painful to accept reality but it is more suffering trying to fight it because one never be able to change the facts of the past.

The reality is that it seems the documents you have may describe concepts and ideas, but they do not describe physical motion. There can be lots of physical interpretations of concepts and ideas!

83

Listen, I wouldn’t even want to bring the guy up, but since you seem to be getting your misinformation from Robert Chu,

Why turn this into a Robert Chu-bashing post? I said Robert had a comment about YKS and Chi Sao. I didn’t ask and he didn’t have anything to say about HFY. So you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions. I came up with the question about Garret Gee and Chi Sao all on my own I assure you! :wink:

Secondly, we’ve had over what, 12 chi sao workshops documented on this forum, other forums and various blogs and websites around the net. Not one of them mentions luk sao, and here’s why: “Luk” is something of a slang term, really all it means is rolling hands.

And in my exchanges with Spencer on this thread I went to lengths to point out that “Luk Sao Chi Sao” was simply a convention in terminology I was using to get across to people that I was talking about what YM & YSK lineages do and not the “Poon Sao” circling hand Chi Sao platform that some of the other lineages use.

It’s in the differences, such as Hung Fa Yi’s time/space/energy chi sao or 3 bong sao focus compared to something like Moy Yat’s Teui Ma or Jip Sau Jow Sau style of training that show what our different systems are really about.

Sure. Those may be refinements. But again, to make things as clear as possible…I am talking about the basic rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages…one arm rolling from Bong to Tan while the other arm follows the partner’s Bong & Tan with a Fook Sao. This basic rolling method with both arms is what I am seeing as developed by YKS and shared with YM and Yui Choi. So how did Garrett Gee come by it in his system?

Heck, my Sifu has been to China like 10-15 times in the last 5 years, and touched hands with senior people in Sum Nung, Gu Lao and Yip Man lineages - not one of them has ever had the opinion we’re doing the same thing.

I personally touched hands with Garrett Gee briefly at the Friendship Seminar in Dayton. We rolled for a bit. He did the basic rolling platform that I am talking about…one arm Bong/Tan, the other arm Fook Sao. Are you saying that you don’t do that??? And just as an aside…he kept his Bong and Tan motion rather high…much like they do in TWC!!!

84

[QUOTE=KPM;1253775]in my exchanges with Spencer on this thread I went to lengths to point out that “Luk Sao Chi Sao” was simply a convention in terminology I was using to get across to people that I was talking about what YM & YSK lineages do and not the “Poon Sao” circling hand Chi Sao platform that some of the other lineages use.[/QUOTE]

Wah! I sincerely hope our little conversation hasn’t caused a whole politically motivated business bull fight! :o

85

That’s what I’m doing Hendrik! No agenda, no politics. When I look, I do not see anyone doing the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform from the generation prior to YKS and YM.--------

How can one deny the evidence,
the snake crane wing chun note 1890 wrote specifically in Chinese the term :Luk Sau. And the kuit of Luk Sao.

Does YKS invent the Luk Sao term for Wck pre 1890 before he was born in 1889?

Those are rather broad and vague guidelines. ------

That is not the case.

The above line I post is specifically under the Luk Sao section of the note .There are chi sau section, …etc.

They do not describe physical actions. ------

There is no vague here.

  1. It wrote in Chinese 1890 Luk sau. The ancient Chinese are very specific. There are different type of chi sau described in the note.

  2. The law family exist and passing the art for four generation father to son until today, and practice what they practice.

How can you say that this is talking about the specific two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by the YKS and YM lineages? -------

As I have mention previously, YKS And Yip man can evolve, create their own variations but please do not speculate they invent Luk Sao chi sau platform which evidentally existed pre 1890 might even before YKS or Ipman was born.

I think that’s what Robert meant when he said there would be no Luk Sao “in the modern sense” without YKS. --------

YKS is free to evolve or create his version of Luk Sao. But Luk Sao platform exist in Wck before he was born by evidence.

It is not the 1890 note that following YKS to call it Luk Sao but YKS is following the old Wck tradition to call it Luk Sao and possible evolve.

One can say a specific Luk sau is the YKS type , but one cannot say YKS invent the Wck Luk sau chi sau platform.

And, as Eric pointed out, “Luk Sao” just means “rolling hands.” I have NOT been talking about rolling hands in a generic sense. ---------

Luk sau is a specific term define and used in 1890 by wing chun kuen .

It is not up for everyone to define it, if one talk Wck as it is.

I think I have been very clear to show I am talking specifically about the two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages. -------

Ok. Then, be really specific
Called it

[B]two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages

[/B]

So there is no misunderstanding as yks invented the Luk Sao chi sau platform of Wck.

What you have translated above could apply equally to the “Poon Sao” type rolling platform used in Pin Sun Wing Chun and other methods that don’t roll like YKS & YM lineages. ---------

The note specifically wrote Luk sau in look sau section.

How can that be translated? When the writing say car can that translate to train?

How can you say that what you translated for us was a record of the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform used by YKS and YM lineages??? :confused: ---------

I have never say that. Read my previous post.

I say there is Luk sau chi sau platform in Wck pre 1890. Yks and Ipman lineage can evolve their own type of Luk sau chi sau. And YKS and Ipman lineage do not invent the Wck Luk sau chi sau platform. They are an evolution of what exist in Wck , they are not the inventor.

As some one from YKS line put in the YouTube interview that YKS designed the Wck three sets. Or YKS Kidney Qigong is Wck qigong. That is not true by evidence.

The reality is that it seems the documents you have may describe concepts and ideas, but they do not describe physical motion. There can be lots of physical interpretations of concepts and ideas! --------

Your reality is you think everything is an equal speculative idea. Everyone’s idea is valid.

Instead of knowing Wck is a well define art or technology in term of body dynamic, power generation, momentum handling, and combat strategy .

This is exactly the result of missing the systemic picture but trying to deny what the ancient Wck description.

This is exactly the issue of one thinking southern mantis is the same with Wck before one learn Wck don’t do those southern mantis side ward block.

86

Some says

The reality is that it seems the documents you have may describe concepts and ideas, but they do not describe physical motion. There can be lots of physical interpretations of concepts and ideas!"

Is that true?

Nope.

The kuit says exactly how to play Luk sau chi sau.
Why ?

Because playing Luk sau Chi sau is about occupied the center line. Thus , it has to response to force at the first instance at the contact point to capture the centerline , who fast who win, instead of moving the limbs .

Thus the kuit of Luk sau says

[B] the kuit of Luk Sao

opponent soft I am soft
opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground
[/B]

It reveal the specifical of the way how Jin is handle at the first instance direct at the center line , where the game is occupied and capture the center line without moving the limps.

This is not poon sau, this is going right into center line , this Jin type is exactly the same description in the siu nim tau Sam bai fut section. The one tan three fook going into center line . How to using downward and upward Jin flow.

This cannot be poon sau where the arm position is not as in Luk sau chi sau position.

This is exactly as what I pointing out previously, if one doesn’t know the ancient Wck description one practically don’t know what it is even the top secret is open in front of ones eyes. Wck technology is not a blank paper which can be fill by any idea. It is a technology which is specifically define.

Sure, I can be wrong. But that is what the kuit says black and white

87

[B]How can one deny the evidence,
the snake crane wing chun note 1890 wrote specifically in Chinese the term :Luk Sau. And the kuit of Luk Sao.

Does YKS invent the Luk Sao term for Wck pre 1890 before he was born in 1889?[/B]

Hendrik, I have made it very clear through-out this thread that I am not talking about terminology. I am talking about a specific physical action. How many times do I need to repeat that? Luk Sao just means “rolling hands.” Its a general term that could apply to ANY Chi Sao action.

1. It wrote in Chinese 1890 Luk sau. The ancient Chinese are very specific. There are different type of chi sau described in the note.

Is it actually described? Or does it talk in concepts and not describe a physical action, like the other passage?

2. The law family exist and passing the art for four generation father to son until today, and practice what they practice.

But do they practice the two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages???

Again Hendrik, how do you know exactly what physical rolling platform that passage was referring to??? Use of terminology can shift and change over generations. How do you know that the “Luk Sao” of 1890 was the “Luk Sao” done in the YKS & YM lineages?

YKS is free to evolve or create his version of Luk Sao. But Luk Sao platform exist in Wck before he was born by evidence.

The only evidence is a term, a name. Your document doesn’t describe what that term was referring to. Does Yik Kam Wing Chun use the same “Luk Sao” two-arm rolling platform as YKS & YM lineages???

[B]Luk sau is a specific term define and used in 1890 by wing chun kuen .

It is not up for everyone to define it, if one talk Wck as it is.[/B]

But you don’t know how THEY defined it!! :confused:

[B]I think I have been very clear to show I am talking specifically about the two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages. -------

Ok. Then, be really specific
Called it

[B]two-arm rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages

[/B][/B]

Sure. But that’s WAY TOO CUMBERSOME to do every time I refer to it. That’s why early on in this thread I qualified what I was talking about when I used the term “Luk Sao.” Did you miss that?

[B]How can you say that what you translated for us was a record of the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform used by YKS and YM lineages??? :confused: ---------

I have never say that. Read my previous post.[/B]

And again…THIS HAS NEVER BEEN ABOUT TERMINOLOGY!!! Please go back and reread the entire thread.

YKS and Ipman lineage do not invent the Wck Luk sau chi sau platform. They are an evolution of what exist in Wck , they are not the inventor.

They were all experts at Wing Chun. So sure, they drew upon things already done in Wing Chun. But no one before them seems to have specifically rolled in the Bong/Tan & Fook Sao way. I already noted early in this thread that if one has done both the “Poon Sao” rolling platform as seen in Pin Sun WCK, and the “Luk Sao” rolling platform done in YKS & YM WCK that it is easy to see how one developed into the other. But again, no one was actually doing that that I can tell in the generation before YKS. So yes, he developed it or invented it based on his background knowledge. He chose to refer to it as “Luk Sao” because it certainly has a “rolling” quality. The Pin Sun version has much more of a “coiling” or “circling” quality. So it seems like a good choice of terms to me!

As some one from YKS line put in the YouTube interview that YKS designed the Wck three sets. Or YKS Kidney Qigong is Wck qigong. That is not true by evidence.

I have said nothing about who may have developed the 3 sets. I have only written about Chi Sao.

[B]Instead of knowing Wck is a well define art or technology in term of body dynamic, power generation, momentum handling, and combat strategy .

This is exactly the result of missing the systemic picture but trying to deny what the ancient Wck description.[/B]

Then please describe for us how Luk Sao Chi Sao is actually physically performed…based on the ancient WCK description.

88

[B]The kuit says exactly how to play Luk sau chi sau.
Why ?

Because playing Luk sau Chi sau is about occupied the center line. Thus , it has to response to force at the first instance at the contact point to capture the centerline , who fast who win, instead of moving the limbs .[/B]

Capture the centerline with what? A Bong Sao? A Jum Sao? A Tan Sao? A Fook Sao? Where does the passage say what technique to use?

This is not poon sau, this is going right into center line , this Jin type is exactly the same description in the siu nim tau Sam bai fut section. The one tan three fook going into center line . How to using downward and upward Jin flow.

So there is no Bong Sao in this passage? What are the physical techniques involved?

This is exactly as what I pointing out previously, if one doesn’t know the ancient Wck description one practically don’t know what it is even the top secret is open in front of ones eyes. Wck technology is not a blank paper which can be fill by any idea. It is a technology which is specifically define.

So what is the ancient WCK description of the physical act of Luk Sao Chi Sao? That sure doesn’t seem so “black and white” to me!!

89

Hendrik, I have made it very clear through-out this thread that I am not talking about terminology. I am talking about a specific physical action. How many times do I need to repeat that? Luk Sao just means “rolling hands.” Its a general term that could apply to ANY Chi Sao action. -------

I don’t talk terminology. I talk technology in specific which is define by the ancient. Luk sau is not a general term.

Example:
when I say Ipad. It is not a terminology it is refer to a technology.
Probably you Have not notice but you interplate what Ipad means as a terminology.

Here I repeat again The 1890 note has Luk sau and chi sau section. Thus it is specific.

90

Capture the centerline with what? A Bong Sao? A Jum Sao? A Tan Sao? A Fook Sao? Where does the passage say what technique to use? -----

That is where direct or double helix Jin or force vector is used to penetrate centerline at contact point.
A sau is too late.

91

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1253949]
Here I repeat again The 1890 note has Luk sau and chi sau section. Thus it is specific.[/QUOTE]

Then I repeat again, please describe for us the physical acts of Luk Sao and Chi Sao according to the ancient descriptions so that we can know what you are talking about.

92

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1253950]Capture the centerline with what? A Bong Sao? A Jum Sao? A Tan Sao? A Fook Sao? Where does the passage say what technique to use? -----

That is where direct or double helix Jin or force vector is used at contact point.
A sau is too late.[/QUOTE]

That is not an answer. What PHYSICAL TECHNIQUES are involved? How does your double helix Jin manifest in a physical way??

93

Keith, if you take a good look at the pin sun wck version of chi sao, your can clearly see it’s a combination of luk sao and circling hands (sheung huen sao) put together in one drill. Therefore both chi sao platform existed way before yip man or YKS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q

As I mentioned before, the luk sao platform is just a variation of pin sun dai lim tao two man set.

94

[QUOTE=KPM;1253951]Then I repeat again, please describe for us the physical acts of Luk Sao and Chi Sao according to the ancient descriptions so that we can know what you are talking about.[/QUOTE]

The kuit above has describe the first key of Luk sau .

95

[QUOTE=KPM;1253775]Listen, I wouldn’t even want to bring the guy up, but since you seem to be getting your misinformation from Robert Chu,

Why turn this into a Robert Chu-bashing post? I said Robert had a comment about YKS and Chi Sao. I didn’t ask and he didn’t have anything to say about HFY. So you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions. I came up with the question about Garret Gee and Chi Sao all on my own I assure you! :wink:
[/QUOTE]

So you’re basically repeating rumors Robert’s been known to spread (on this very forum) in the past after admitting talking to him just a short time ago and you think I’m jumping to conclusions? Something smells like a rat there.

And in my exchanges with Spencer on this thread I went to lengths to point out that “Luk Sao Chi Sao” was simply a convention in terminology I was using to get across to people that I was talking about what YM & YSK lineages do and not the “Poon Sao” circling hand Chi Sao platform that some of the other lineages use.

So you’re saying what you’re talking about is one specific exercise that’s in the Yip Man/YKS lineage and a sequence of bong and tan. Fair enough, why did you try and bring my lineage into it then?

Sure. Those may be refinements. But again, to make things as clear as possible…I am talking about the basic rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages…one arm rolling from Bong to Tan while the other arm follows the partner’s Bong & Tan with a Fook Sao. This basic rolling method with both arms is what I am seeing as developed by YKS and shared with YM and Yui Choi. So how did Garrett Gee come by it in his system?

Now you’re just playing games, there’s not a refinement when the underlying technology and training method/purpose is different. The basic assumptions of operation between HFY and Yip family WC are very far apart. Also, as I’ve already explained, we don’t do anything called luk sao.

Because he was able to roll with you and you call it luk sao doesn’t mean anything. That’s like if I bridge with a Tai Chi guy and he starts saying my WC has to have incorporated push hands at some point. It’s a bunch of bologna.

I personally touched hands with Garrett Gee briefly at the Friendship Seminar in Dayton. We rolled for a bit. He did the basic rolling platform that I am talking about…one arm Bong/Tan, the other arm Fook Sao. Are you saying that you don’t do that??? And just as an aside…he kept his Bong and Tan motion rather high…much like they do in TWC!!!

Wow, the years old TWC rumor, smells like ratty Robert once again.

I’ve just stated this but I’ll say it again: The HFY chi sao platform is able to work with any other WC chi sao platform, including your luk sao, it doesn’t mean that we’re doing the same thing.

96

Luk Sao is an application which involve unique strategy , momentum, force flow handling.

The kuit has specifically tell one how to applied the force under what dynamic condition.

One needs to develop the Jin path and Jin flow before one can play that properly. It is an inner gate direct compete for center line play certainly not a chasing hand art.

The kuit describe what happen at listening to Jin , receive Jin, and issue Jin, and how. But if one taking a different translation instead of the ancient one , one will not be able to see what it is .

Luk sau is a center line capture play where both party face square and compete for center line. It is an inner gate play. Poon sau is a different story. Luk Sao is it not a drill of hand technics at is core . It is a play of how not leaving the inner gate and force the opponent out in the micro way at contact.

the kuit of Luk Sao

opponent soft I am soft
opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground

[QUOTE=KPM;1253953]That is not an answer. What PHYSICAL TECHNIQUES are involved? How does your double helix Jin manifest in a physical way??[/QUOTE]

97

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1254015]Keith, if you take a good look at the pin sun wck version of chi sao, your can clearly see it’s a combination of luk sao and circling hands (sheung huen sao) put together in one drill. Therefore both chi sao platform existed way before yip man or YKS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q

As I mentioned before, the luk sao platform is just a variation of pin sun dai lim tao two man set.[/QUOTE]

Navin,

  1. I believe in credit is given to who the credit belongs. I do think YKS has evolved and develop great things.

But I think too many stories we need to verify, disregards of lineages.

  1. Here are samples As in the next issue of new hero magazine the following kuit exist in 1890 note of snake crane Wck lineage. See for your self details document existed.

A. 24 chi sau key ponts kuit (Total Twenty four verses)

     .......     Come accept return send it back, meeting disengage thrust in, at  opponent move.....

B, the kuit of Luk Sao

opponent soft I am soft
opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground
Your center line needs to align center.

There is no reason in 1890 people record this with the description just for hendrik. They don’t prepare for Hendrik to argue to Keight in 2013. You can see here the Luk sau is started in the inner gate center line play. Very direct. No longer as in chi sau. It won’t give an inch away. It response right the way. As for the chi sau is a different play.

3 to truely resolve these stuffs, one needs to verify and compare writing from different lineages . That is the reason one needs to study ancient Wck. Otherwise one don’t know what is going on. Since every lineages have those stories which make it sounds as the only the true lineage or the sifu is the only true guy. In reality that is not the case. No one has it all, and nothing comes out from the thin air.

98

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1254015]Keith, if you take a good look at the pin sun wck version of chi sao, your can clearly see it’s a combination of luk sao and circling hands (sheung huen sao) put together in one drill. Therefore both chi sao platform existed way before yip man or YKS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q

As I mentioned before, the luk sao platform is just a variation of pin sun dai lim tao two man set.[/QUOTE]

Navin, that is simply not true!

First, as I have already pointed out…the DLT drill is ONE arm at a time and is a DRILL. It is not a rolling platform for free technique.

Second, I have trained in the Pin Sun version of Chi Sao, with Jim Roselando! If you look closely, the roll has a coiling/circling nature and the energy goes side to side. They circle COMPLETELY around each other’s forearms very close to the wrist. In contrast, the YKS/YM roll is truly a “rolling” motion that goes more up and down and is centered closer to mid-forearm. The Bong/Tan hand STAYS on the inside of the partner’s hand and the Fook hand STAYS on the outside of the partner’s hand. There is a completely different energy and dynamic involved. Now granted, Jim does something much closer to a Bong Sao that you see others do in this rolling platform. For instance, just take a look again at the Vietnamese WCK clip that started this thread. But even in what Jim is doing, Bong Sao is not a prominent part of the roll as it is in the YKS/YM version.

Third, again as I have already stated, there is not a big jump from what Jim is doing to the YKS/YM version. It just seems that no one actually made that “jump” until YKS!! I guess we could argue about whether that means he truly “invented” it, or simply “adapted” what he already knew. But regardless, I don’t see anything to contradict the idea that YKS was the “innovator” either way.

99

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1254030]The kuit above has describe the first key of Luk sau .[/QUOTE]

You seem to be missing the point Hendrik. Please describe the PHYSICAL ACTIONS involved. What does Luk Sao look like, according to the ancient descriptions???

100

So you’re basically repeating rumors Robert’s been known to spread (on this very forum) in the past after admitting talking to him just a short time ago and you think I’m jumping to conclusions? Something smells like a rat there.

No rats involved, truly. If you wanted to go back and look, I think I probably asked that very question here myself years ago.

So you’re saying what you’re talking about is one specific exercise that’s in the Yip Man/YKS lineage and a sequence of bong and tan. Fair enough, why did you try and bring my lineage into it then?

Because I’ve seen your lineage do the same rolling platform.

The basic assumptions of operation between HFY and Yip family WC are very far apart. Also, as I’ve already explained, we don’t do anything called luk sao.

And I’ve explained that I’m not concerned about terminology. I asked before and you didn’t answer, so I’ll ask again and little more clearly. In HFY, do you use a basic Chi Sao rolling platform consisting of one arm rolling between Bong Sao and Tan Sao on the inside while the other arm follows the partner’s Bong/Tan with a Fook Sao on the outside?

Wow, the years old TWC rumor, smells like ratty Robert once again.

I assure you that this is based upon my own observations and conclusions. Robert has nothing to do with it.

I’ve just stated this but I’ll say it again: The HFY chi sao platform is able to work with any other WC chi sao platform, including your luk sao, it doesn’t mean that we’re doing the same thing.

Please see my re-stated question above!