Nice version of vinh xuan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

[QUOTE=KPM;1252689]First…no forward intent? :rolleyes: The forward lean, if anything, exaggerates forward intent! If he was leaning back on his heels, then I could understand someone saying it is “pretty hard to have any fwd intent.” [/QUOTE]

Completely dissagree. It’s near impossible to have WC’s idea of fwd intent thru your whole structure (from the ground up) in this type of stance. Which is why I also said ‘body structure’ in my last reply.

And I never said anything about leaning back on your heels. But since you brought it up, While I don’t advocate that method either for the same reason - you give up neutrality - I’ve seen and experienced people making the lean-back work better in regards to fwd intent thru the bridge than anyone who was using a fwd, hunched over one.

[QUOTE=KPM;1252689]Second…obviously its hard to know someone’s body structure without seeing or feeling it tested. Nothing in this clip really put it to the test. But I have felt Jim’s structure, and it is solid![/QUOTE]

I am only going by what is presented in the video to form my opinion, as apparetnly some others here have as well. Sorry if my opinion bothers you though, I mean’t no harm :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=KPM;1252689]Third…why do you think there is no centerline here?[/QUOTE]

I said self centerline in my comments to Jim’s clip, and even bolded the word self. But, I say that simply because the spine is not straight and the weight is not evenly balanced. With a hunched over stance, you can not have the things I mentioned.

As far as shared - or A-to-B centerline - the way they cross center once they get into the dance-like ‘twisting’ portions of this drill, I’d say it’s not here either. Once you are crossing center, you can’t have fwd intent and are giving up A-to-B centerline, regardless of the stance used - at least from my undertanding of basic WC principles.

42

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1252701]but Wing Chun principles, structures and body methods don’t work very well with that type of stance.[/QUOTE]

I don’t understand why you would say that. You have to bend before you can straight. You have to pull your bow before you can shot your arrow out. The hollow chest is just that “bend - ready to do something”.

43

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1252701]That’s cool, and if I remember correctly, you don’t really practice WC in your fighting method, so to you, the hunched over stance might make perfect sense :slight_smile:

But not all fighting arts are the same.. Wing Chun principles, structures and body methods don’t work very well with that type of stance.[/QUOTE]

You should only use your structure when you attack. Before your attack, your body should be bent so you can straight it when needed. You have to compress before you can release. You have to pull your bow before you can shot your arrow out. This concept has nothing to do with “style”.

Can you see anybody has body structure in this picture?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6XdzrqO5aHU/Tz49BxeC3vI/AAAAAAAAAK0/FoXRg3KjKss/s1600/ready-to-run.jpg

Now you can see structure in this picture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=running&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=kwtfUu6fFqy7jAKx84GICQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=955&dpr=1#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=wxQr2BgzjCF93M%3A%3BPzWe4ZIa8j7A8M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffitniche.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F02%252Fproper-running-form.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffitniche.com%252Frunning-form-clinics%252F%3B1991%3B772

In that WC clip, both are playing. none of them has committed on anything. It’s too early to apply their structure IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Qc2tho5N8&list=PLF871C0B72851D784

44

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1252667]IMO, the “hunched over stances - hollow chest” is the correct posture used in combat. The straight back stance is not good at all.[/QUOTE]

WCK avocate relaxing the chest so that it sinks with gravity, not “hunched over stances - hollow chest” or bending forward from the hip joint.

[QUOTE=KPM;1252683]Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK’s Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan’s curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

Uh, no. This is the Dai Lim Tao 2 man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4

So you might be able to say that the single sticking hands in Yip Man WCK came from this, but not the 2-arm rolling platform. This is a two-man set, not a free-form rolling platform.[/QUOTE]

That’s the standard way of doing PSWC Dai Lim Tao two-man set, however there is another variation which is virtually identical to Luk sao utilizing Bong, Tan, fook like in yip man wck. You probably haven’t seen this variation. Evan in the standard Dai lim tao drill that you posted above, you can clearly see the bong tan cycle being done in the drill, as well as the fook and jut cycle being done on the opposite hand. when you put everything together you end up doing the second variation of the dai lim tao drill which is luk sao. The problem is people are trying to sell their brand of wing chun, therfore they only mention the differences and not the similarities among the various WCK linages to deceive people. A cult like mentality if you ask me.

45

[QUOTE=KPM;1252460] you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward.[/QUOTE]

Here is another clip to show that this strategy is applied in the stand up grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B5VLKS8nuc&feature=youtu.be

46

Completely dissagree. It’s near impossible to have WC’s idea of fwd intent thru your whole structure (from the ground up) in this type of stance. Which is why I also said ‘body structure’ in my last reply.

—I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Weight near the balls of the feet with a bit of a forward lean certainly has forward intent to me. How well it can be used in the specific position in the clip may be another factor. I do have to admit that Jim doesn’t appear to be applying any forward pressure in this video. That is one of the differences between this rolling platform and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. With Luk Sao the arms are going up & down with forward pressure or intent. In this “Huen Sao” platform the arms are essentially going side to side and circling with very little forward pressure. This is even more pronounced in the original video on this thread.

And I never said anything about leaning back on your heels. But since you brought it up, While I don’t advocate that method either for the same reason - you give up neutrality

—I agree. But is “neutrality” part of your idea of “forward intent”?

I am only going by what is presented in the video to form my opinion, as apparetnly some others here have as well. Sorry if my opinion bothers you though, I mean’t no harm :slight_smile:

—No problem. Things aren’t always very clear in a video.

I said self centerline in my comments to Jim’s clip, and even bolded the word self. But, I say that simply because the spine is not straight and the weight is not evenly balanced. With a hunched over stance, you can not have the things I mentioned.

—Ok. I’ll give you that! But realize that the Southern Mantis and the Bak Mei guys also use the centerline concept and they have an even more pronounced “hunch.”

As far as shared - or A-to-B centerline - the way they cross center once they get into the dance-like ‘twisting’ portions of this drill, I’d say it’s not here either. Once you are crossing center, you can’t have fwd intent and are giving up A-to-B centerline, regardless of the stance used - at least from my undertanding of basic WC principles.

—Well, I think I have to give that one as well! I don’t like the “cross center” thing either.

47

That’s the standard way of doing PSWC Dai Lim Tao two-man set, however there is another variation which is virtually identical to Luk sao utilizing Bong, Tan, fook like in yip man wck. You probably haven’t seen this variation.

—So this variation uses both arms at once? And how do you know that this variation did not result from someone in more recent times seeing the Luk Sao Chi Sao roll and saying “gee, we can do that from the Dai Lim Tao Drill!”??? In the various versions of the Ku Lo village art I have seen, I have never seen the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform.

Evan in the standard Dai lim tao drill that you posted above, you can clearly see the bong tan cycle being done in the drill, as well as the fook and jut cycle being done on the opposite hand. when you put everything together you end up doing the second variation of the dai lim tao drill which is luk sao.

—Again. The standard drill is a DRILL. It is not being done as a free-flow rolling platform. Both arms are not being used at once. Like I pointed out to Spencer, it wasn’t necessarily a big step to go to the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform. It would have been a very natural adaptation or innovation. It just doesn’t seem that anyone was doing it in the generation prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San. At least I haven’t seen any convincing evidence of that yet. And I was told by what I consider to be a very reliable source that Sum Nun himself said that Yuen Kay San developed Luk Sao and shared it with Yip Man. So until I see something convincing that contradicts that, I will go with that information.

The problem is people are trying to sell their brand of wing chun, therfore they only mention the differences and not the similarities among the various WCK linages to deceive people. A cult like mentality if you ask me.

—I’m not trying to sell anything. And I don’t have anything even close to a “cult-like mentality” Navin. All I’ve done is present the evidence I have seen and the logic that connects it. Show me footage of Grandmaster Fung Chun doing the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform with a student prior to his death and I’ll be ready to consider changing my conclusions! :wink:

48

Hunt1 was right. Assuming this wasn’t added to the lineage in later generations, here is Yiu Choi lineage people doing Luk Sao Chi Sao.

Yiu Choi Chi Sao at 4:44:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHlGGSOyNk0

Unfortunately, Ng Chung So lineages don’t seem to have survived. Footage I find of Chan Wah Shun/Chan Yu Min lineages don’t show Chi Sao. What they do show looks VERY different from Yip Man Wing Chun. So there has likely been some “mixing” since Chan Wah Shun’s day.

Yiu Choi seems to be the only lineage connected with Ng Chung So other than Yip Man that is still around. They do Luk Sao Chi Sao, but since Yiu Choi was one of the “three heroes of Wing Chun” in Foshan along with Yip man and Yuen Kay San and they hung out together regularly, it makes sense that he would have been in on any Chi Sao developments. But we cannot rule out the possibility that Ng Chung So was the innovator and showed it to all of them! I guess we’ll just have to take Sum Nun’s word for it until something surfaces that tells us otherwise. At least that’s how I see it. Your mileage may vary! :wink:

49

We know Luk sau chi sau exist in other Wck lineages before 1890 by evidence. There is witting record on how to play it.

Sifu Wayne Yung and myself have just finished written an article " wing chun kuen true description" for nov 2013 Hong Kong new martial hero magazine.

The core of the article is based on the inner circle kept snake crane wing chun note book and yik kam kuen kuit. It is the first time in the history wcners from other lineages can have a look on the content of the note book. We release these to the public now. So wcner can see from these two sources how they echo each other’s and what exist in 1850 to 1890 time frame or what is the content of Wck at that period of time without have to guess.

Let what is written in the past describe what is wing chun kuen as it. Sure we go beyond Yks, Ipman, passing Leung Jan, going to Leung LAN Kwai Wck which is the time WWB, yik kam, lo man Kung practice in the red boat era. With these two ancient writing we today do have 20/20 sight on the big picture of Wck.

Hope after this, Wck has a good reference across all red boat Wck lineages instead of story based imformation on individual lineage as in the past 60 years.

[QUOTE=KPM;1252725]Hunt1 was right. Assuming this wasn’t added to the lineage in later generations, here is Yiu Choi lineage people doing Luk Sao Chi Sao.

Yiu Choi Chi Sao at 4:44:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHlGGSOyNk0

Unfortunately, Ng Chung So lineages don’t seem to have survived. Footage I find of Chan Wah Shun/Chan Yu Min lineages don’t show Chi Sao. What they do show looks VERY different from Yip Man Wing Chun. So there has likely been some “mixing” since Chan Wah Shun’s day.

Yiu Choi seems to be the only lineage connected with Ng Chung So other than Yip Man that is still around. They do Luk Sao Chi Sao, but since Yiu Choi was one of the “three heroes of Wing Chun” in Foshan along with Yip man and Yuen Kay San and they hung out together regularly, it makes sense that he would have been in on any Chi Sao developments. But we cannot rule out the possibility that Ng Chung So was the innovator and showed it to all of them! I guess we’ll just have to take Sum Nun’s word for it until something surfaces that tells us otherwise. At least that’s how I see it. Your mileage may vary! ;)[/QUOTE]

50

[QUOTE=KPM;1252722][B]—So this variation uses both arms at once? And how do you know that this variation did not result from someone in more recent times seeing the Luk Sao Chi Sao roll and saying “gee, we can do that from the Dai Lim Tao Drill!”??? In the various versions of the Ku Lo village art I have seen, I have never seen the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform.[/QUOTE]

Yes It is being done as a free-flow rolling platform with both arms being used at once.

Also if Yip Man and YKS created luk sao, please explain why luk Sao is found in the snake and crane wck of lo man Kung which predates YKS.

[QUOTE=KPM;1252722]—I’m not trying to sell anything. And I don’t have anything even close to a “cult-like mentality” Navin. All I’ve done is present the evidence I have seen and the logic that connects it. Show me footage of Grandmaster Fung Chun doing the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform with a student prior to his death and I’ll be ready to consider changing my conclusions! ;)[/QUOTE]

Keith this comment was not aimed at you, it was intended towards an individual with a Napoleon Complex, I think you know whom I am referring to. lol

51

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1252736]We know Luk sau chi sau exist in other Wck lineages before 1890 by evidence. There is witting record on how to play it.

Sifu Wayne Yung and myself have just finished written an article " wing chun kuen true description" for nov 2013 Hong Kong new martial hero magazine.

[/QUOTE]

I hope you have plans for an English translation soon? Otherwise this won’t have much impact on those of us here in the western world, since not many of us read Chinese. I would certainly like to see an English translation of any description of Luk Sao Chi Sao!

52

Also if Yip Man and YKS created luk sao, please explain why luk Sao is found in the snake and crane wck of lo man Kung which predates YKS.

–Ahh! Now this I am willing to consider! I don’t know anything about Lo Man Kung. Is there footage of this lineage doing Luk Sao Chi Sao around? I’ll have to look into this! :slight_smile:

Keith this comment was not aimed at you, it was intended towards an individual with a Napoleon Complex, I think you know whom I am referring to. lol

—Oh! Got it! Thanks Navin. :wink:

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[QUOTE=KPM;1252756]I hope you have plans for an English translation soon? Otherwise this won’t have much impact on those of us here in the western world, since not many of us read Chinese. I would certainly like to see an English translation of any description of Luk Sao Chi Sao![/QUOTE]

Agreed. An English translation should be made available too.

But I have to chirp in on your constant use of this Luk Sao Chi Sao term Keith! Again, I don’t know if Navin has similar ideas, but for me these are two different interactive platforms especially at the begining. As a student progresses to a more free interaction they will constantly be changing from one type to another, sometimes for only a split second and sometimes more.

54

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1252760]Agreed. An English translation should be made available too.

But I have to chirp in on your constant use of this Luk Sao Chi Sao term Keith! .[/QUOTE]

Again, labels are important in a communication format like this. :wink: If I just said “Chi Sao” people wouldn’t know if I was referring to the Yip Man version or the circling hand version highlighted on this thread. So we have to distinguish it somehow. The terms I’ve seen used most often are Luk Sao and Poon Sao. Since I’ve also seen Poon Sao used to refer to the “circling hand” version, it seemed the most clear to use the term “Luk Sao Chi Sao” when talking about the platform used by Yip Man and Yuen Kay San lineages. I use this to refer to he rolling platform itself, not to any difference between free-flow and just rolling. I haven’t seen the term used that way. Do you have a better way to distinguish between the two rolling platforms?

55

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1252708]You should only use your structure when you attack. Before your attack, your body should be bent so you can straight it when needed. You have to compress before you can release. You have to pull your bow before you can shot your arrow out. This concept has nothing to do with “style”.][/QUOTE]

Haha, maybe you should talk about what you do and stop telling me what I should do :wink:

Again, I’m talking about Wing Chun principle & body methods. For WC Loi Lao Hoi Sung to work, you need proper WC body structure to both receive and escort energy - and both can be done with an upright posture. In HFY WC, we have compress/release body methods that don’t involve hunching over. We train this in-part in our Dip Gwat Gung methods where we train compression & release of our core/ribs in connection with joint power, and no bent-over hunching (as shown in the clips on this thread) is necessary to achieve this.

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1252708]Can you see anybody has body structure in this picture?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6XdzrqO5aHU/Tz49BxeC3vI/AAAAAAAAAK0/FoXRg3KjKss/s1600/ready-to-run.jpg

Now you can see structure in this picture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=running&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=kwtfUu6fFqy7jAKx84GICQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1680&bih=955&dpr=1#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=wxQr2BgzjCF93M%3A%3BPzWe4ZIa8j7A8M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffitniche.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F02%252Fproper-running-form.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffitniche.com%252Frunning-form-clinics%252F%3B1991%3B772

In that WC clip, both are playing. none of them has committed on anything. It’s too early to apply their structure IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Qc2tho5N8&list=PLF871C0B72851D784[/QUOTE]

Even in your pics, while they have nothign to do with the subject of structure in combat, you show the runners standing more erect in their application of running. Not sure how any of this supports your previous quote of " The straight back stance is not good at all. " Heck, you even conterdicted this in the quote above when you said “so you can straight it when needed”. Now I’m starting to wonder if you aren’t just arguing to argue now. :wink:

How long did you study WC for? As far as I can remember when we met in TX, you practice/teach mainly grappling arts yeah? I’m talking about WC only. So, it seems we are probably just going to talk past each other all day, 'specially once you start flip flopping like I pointed out :o

Normally, I appreciate your logic-based ideas on this forum. But at this point, I don’t think we’re going to agree, so I’ll just let it go for now.

56

I’m talking about Wing Chun principle & body methods. For WC Loi Lao Hoi Sung to work, you need proper WC body structure to both receive and escort energy - and both can be done with an upright posture. In HFY WC, we have compress/release body methods that don’t involve hunching over.

I agree. Same in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Kuen.

57

[QUOTE=KPM;1252800]I agree. Same in Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun Kuen.[/QUOTE]

Keith are you training in Robert Chu’s system now?

58

[QUOTE=KPM;1252775]The terms I’ve seen used most often are Luk Sao and Poon Sao. Since I’ve also seen Poon Sao used to refer to the “circling hand” version, it seemed the most clear to use the term “Luk Sao Chi Sao” when talking about the platform used by Yip Man and Yuen Kay San lineages. [/QUOTE]

So you see how you are throwing a third method into the mix? :wink:

All are distinctly different and have their own unique practises in the early stages so you can understand exactly what you are doing at all times during interactive practise.

[QUOTE=KPM;1252775]I use this to refer to he rolling platform itself, not to any difference between free-flow and just rolling. I haven’t seen the term used that way. Do you have a better way to distinguish between the two rolling platforms?[/QUOTE]

What is this addiction to ‘free-flow’ and ‘just rolling’?! There is never ‘just rolling’ as even when the intent is to exercise there are very specific reasons why the roll does this or that or whatever.

‘Free flow’ is what I would refer to as Gorsau, but only if the applied techniques are originating from bridge arm contact, whereas Sansau is more akin to ‘free-sparring’ from longer ranges.

So now you have FIVE different interactive platforms designed to develop your fighting ability. If you can even start to imagine what I am talking about you will understand that labelling can be very positive indeed when it is constructive and logical :wink:

The label I have for the whole interactive practise is Doi Lien, which basically translates as Interactive Practise! So I use Looksau Doilien, Chisau Doilien, Poonsau Doilien, Gorsau Doilien and Sansau Doilien.

That is a good start for any Wing Chun practitioner IMHO but I understand there will be many that will always and forever refer to everything here as simply ‘Chisau’… and some will have even more labels!!

So be it!

Each to their own :slight_smile:

59

All are distinctly different and have their own unique practises in the early stages so you can understand exactly what you are doing at all times during interactive practise.

So, you are saying that there are various “labels” and that all of these are distinct and important? I thought you didn’t like labels. :wink:

What is this addiction to ‘free-flow’ and ‘just rolling’?! There is never ‘just rolling’ as even when the intent is to exercise there are very specific reasons why the roll does this or that or whatever.

Of course. That is a given. When you are rolling you are testing structure and position. You should never just absent-mindedly stand there and roll the arms. But still, no specific attacks are being launched at the partner at this time. I don’t know what “addiction” you are talking about.

‘Free flow’ is what I would refer to as Gorsau, but only if the applied techniques are originating from bridge arm contact, whereas Sansau is more akin to ‘free-sparring’ from longer ranges.

Yes, and in most Yip Man lineages the rolling without going into attacks is called “Luk Sao.” Hence my use of the term “Luk Sao Chi Sao” to refer to the Yip Man and Yuen Kay San basic rolling structure. So most people with background in Yip Man WCK would understand what I was talking about and see that it is distinct from the “Huen Sao” rolling platform from the other Mainland China systems. You seem to be the only one that has had a problem with that.

So now you have FIVE different interactive platforms designed to develop your fighting ability. If you can even start to imagine what I am talking about you will understand that labelling can be very positive indeed when it is constructive and logical :wink:

And what is illogical about what I have done? You are the one that has jumped in and tried to complicate the whole thing.

The label I have for the whole interactive practise is Doi Lien, which basically translates as Interactive Practise! So I use Looksau Doilien, Chisau Doilien, Poonsau Doilien, Gorsau Doilien and Sansau Doilien.

And “Doi Lien” is a term that won’t mean anything to a lot of people here. Most people use “Chi Sao” as a general term for all kinds of “sticking hands” practice, because that is how the term translates in English! You seem to have replaced “Chi Sao” as a general term with “Doi Lien.” Most lineages don’t do that and so wouldn’t talk that way in general discussion. Now, in your categorization, if Luk Sao is rolling without attacks, Gor Sao is rolling with attacks, and San Sao is essentially free-fighting…what are Chi Sao and Poon Sao?

That is a good start for any Wing Chun practitioner IMHO but I understand there will be many that will always and forever refer to everything here as simply ‘Chisau’… and some will have even more labels!!

A good start for a Lee Shing Wing Chun practitioner maybe. However not many, but MOST Wing Chun people refer to all “sticking hands” training as “Chi Sao” as I noted. And for what its worth, most would not include San Sao or free-fighting under the label of “Chi Sao.” So it seems to me that this whole tangent we’ve gone off on in this thread is because LSWCK uses different terminology that almost everyone else. That’s fine. But rather than saying:
But I have to chirp in on your constant use of this Luk Sao Chi Sao term Keith!
You could have just said: “this is how LSWCK labels the various interactive training” and saved us a lot of trouble! :rolleyes:

60

Unsanswered Questions

For Navin:
You said that the Luk Sao platform was part of the snake and crane WCK of Lo Man Kung which predates YKS. I can’t find anything on this. Do you have links with info?

For Hunt1:
You said that the Luk Sao platform was part of the Chum Kiu form in some lineages. Can you describe what you mean by this?

For Hendrik and Spencer:
You both said you had documents that describe Luk Sao platform. Can you provide us with a English translation of those descriptions along with authorship and dating?

I’ve looked for footage of Vietnamese Wing Chun doing the Luk Sao rolling Chi Sao platform and have only found footage similar to the post that started this thread. Does anyone have a link to a vid showing them using Luk Sao?

From the evidence at hand, there are no indications of the specific Luk Sao rolling platform being used as a two-man interactive exercise prior to the generation of YM and YKS. The evidence suggests that the interaction of the “three heroes of Foshan”…Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, and Yiu Choi came up with it. Since Yuen Chai Wan was YKS’s brother and Yiu Choi’s teacher at one point it makes sense he would have been shown this as well. Since they all interacted with Ng Chun So as well, its hard to rule him out as the originator. We do have Sum Nun saying he was there and that Yuen Kay San was the one that developed this and shared with at least Yip Man.

I don’t have anything invested in this either way, and in the end it really doesn’t matter. But I find it interesting from an historical standpoint. I’m open to solid evidence that shows that Luk Sao existed as a “double arm Chi Sao” training exercise prior to these gentlemen.