newbie training questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Hello, im new to these forums and i just had some questions. This is how i train each day (well when im not busy with homework):

arms: chinups (i grip on to the bar with my hands on the outside then swap and grip on the bar with my hands on the inside), chest pushups (i place both hands directly underneath my chest then go as low as possible to the ground without touching it), knuckle pushups, handstand pushups (i balance by leaning my feet on my wall), handstands (walk on my hands across the room and try to balance on my way), finger pushups (i do it with all five fingers then swap to just two fingers), one hand pushups on each arm, i dont know if v-holds count as training the arms but you gotta hold yourself on two ledges with your arms, i was thinking of getting this neat little wheel where i kneel on the ground and hold the wheel with both arms and roll as far as possible without my body touching the ground and then try and pull myself back up. and i also punch my boxing bag a lot.

legs: horse stances, this squatting thing where i squat on the ground and put both arms behind my back and just jump up and down in the same position, i also kick my boxing bag alot and practice my kicks (side kick, front kick) in slow motion, like really slow. and my cousin who did shaolin for two years taught me this sitting thingo where i spread my legs around 2 feet and then sit down with my knees touching the floor but my feet directly sideways on the ground, its suppose to make my legs more flexible or something, and theres this other thing where i stand straight and really slowly lift my legs sideways upwards until it is directly horizontal, i think it trains the hips as well im not sure, and i skip with one leg at a time, i think it makes you feel lighter on your feet, like more balance or something, i read it from this bruce lee book.

abs: situps (i think most people bend their knees and do this, but i just leave mine flat on the ground without anything holding on to it and curve my toes towards my head and when i come up i try to press my head on to my knees, can almost do that), v-holds (where u get two chairs and put it parralel to each other, then you lift urself up with the two chairs and lift both your legs up till it is horizontal and try and hold it there for as long as you can.).

flexibility: that stretching thingo where i stand straight with my feet together and grab my heels and put my head on my knees, splits.

fitness: running around my suburb, skipping, and shadow boxing.
i think thats it.

i just wanted to ask you guys which exercises might not be good for me, some people said that squatting exercise i do could lead to knee injuries. and if any of you could suggest any new exercises for me to do, and can you also explain them, because some of you use nicknames i am not fimiliar with.

i also see that alot of you people use weights to train, i was just curious about this, but doesnt using weights build up your muscles rather than train your joints so you won’t be able to attack or move as fast. i just thought throwing your weight around was better. also i heard weights can stunt ur growth, hrmm.. i think thats mainly because i’m 16-17 and still growing.

thanks in advance!

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Any excercise can be bad for you if:

  1. You lack proper form (incorrect angles strain the joints and can lead to RSI)
  2. You have a personal anomaly that can be effected by them (genetic or pre-existing health condition)
  3. You do not provide your body with sufficient nutrition (good whole food, lots of protein, leafy greens, fruit, maybe supplements if you have particular problems in some area) and sleep to rebuild muscle in between workouts.

From what you wrote, I would suggest you are overtraining and will not achieve optimal results with that schedule (you are not giving your body time to rebuild muscle bigger/stronger).

I have heard you can train abs and calves every day, other body parts should probably be 2-3 times a week, with one max day (where you severely strain them) and a lighter day or two where you give them a little zing to keep things moving.

That, with plenty of rest and nutrition, would be good for strength building.

If you’re more after cardio, I would suggest Taku’s intervals or Scrapper’s workouts: http://trainforstrength.com/index.shtml

Weights are okay, I prefer dumbells (or club or kettle bells) as they require independant stabalization and wider range of motion is possible.

For stretching, I prefer PNF. Do a google search for PNF stretching (or active isolation, I think is another good one).

If you’re primary goal is martial arts, however, you will need to decide how much you want to be attribute (strength/speed/conditoning/resilience) dependant, and how much you want to be skill (timing, sensitivity, experience, etc.) dependant. Strength and speed can make up for skill, but if you find someone stronger or faster, they won’t serve you as well as skill.

So, being in good shape is beneficial, but if you have the time, working on your MA should be the primary concern. (If you have a partner, that can prove an incredible workout all its own).

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Re: newbie training questions

Originally posted by dodger87
[B…]my cousin who did shaolin for two years taught me this sitting thingo where i spread my legs around 2 feet and then sit down with my knees touching the floor but my feet directly sideways on the ground, its suppose to make my legs more flexible or something…[/B]

This sounds similar to the hurdler stretch. I ran track for a few years in my high school days and we were taught that this stretch is bad for your knees. One of my kung fu brothers played soccer and did a lot of streches like this. He now has bad knees. I can’t say they are directly related because I am not a doctor, but be safe.

I ditto what Rene said above. My sifu also explains to us we can do abs every day because they heal pretty quickly. If you want to work out every day I would target certain muscle groups each day and work on them. One day work on arms like bicept and tricept, along with forearm and wrist. Next day work on legs.

Stretching is very important and sometimes over looked in kung fu. Especially in systems where they don’t advocate high kicking. You do not need to be able to do the splits to use wing chun effectively. Heck I bet most Sifus out there can’t do the splits. However, if you have the flexability then you have the ability to use those techniques which require the flexability. You never know when you might need it, and it also makes it easier to later cross train in systems that do advocate high kicking. I suggest looking into yoga perhaps. Yoga stretching has deeply helped my flexability, and its good for your health.

Jumping rope is suppose to be a great endurance/cardio work out for martial artists. Almost every boxer I have met jumps rope so they can last 10 rounds if needed.

Weight lifting does not decrease your flexability, not stretching or not stretching properly will decrease your flexability. If you do tons of reps of lesser weight it will increase strength. If you do less reps with heavy weights it will build mass.

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Gangsterfist is correct about the “sitting thingy”.

Hurdler’s stretch can be OK, but you have to be VERY careful with form and be pretty flexible in the hips already or you can damage your knees. The exercise isn’t dangerous if you do it correctly, but most people don’t have the flexibility or understand their bodies well enough to get value, rather than injury, from it. That is why it is discouraged.

The exercise you are talking about, which I assume involves you kneeling down , rotating your feet out and putting your butt on the floor between them, is REALLY BAD for your knees. It puts undue strain on the knee ligaments, which you DO NOT want to stretch.

I too practice yoga, but some positions are bad for your knees, and others you have to be very flexible before attempting - bull posture is a sure fire knee buster, as is lotus unless you have really flexible hips already. The standing triangles, extended triangles, warrior poses, and sun salutes and related sequences, are really good for general relaxation and flexibility.

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Re: Re: newbie training questions

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
If you do tons of reps of lesser weight it will increase strength. If you do less reps with heavy weights it will build mass.
I hope you mean the opposite to this. High volume workouts build mass. Low volume workouts with heavy weights build strength.

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Re: newbie training questions

Originally posted by dodger87
i was thinking of getting this neat little wheel where i kneel on the ground and hold the wheel with both arms and roll as far as possible without my body touching the ground and then try and pull myself back up.
Arggh! Don’t mention the ab roller! :stuck_out_tongue:

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lol, don’t ask martial artists for fitness advice :smiley: Especially not Wing Chunners :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

It’s good that you posted in the training forum, too.

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so if the “hurdler’s stretch” is bad for the knees then would practicing the splits be okay? because when i find them both to feel quite similar.

[edit] um some of you say that i shouldn’t work on any area’s besides the abs every day because it is over-working. i usually rest these areas when i feel some of those muscles in that area expanding (thats when it feels sore), and then when those areas arent sore anymore i usually go back to my normal routine. is this okay? but i think you guys might be refering to people who use weights as training because that trains the muscles more but my exercises train my joints more so i dont think im really overworking my muscles. [/edit]

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It’s my understanding that joints need rest to rebuild just like muscles. You make a muscle or joint stronger by straining them and then letting them rebuild to deal with the greater strain. If you forget about the second part of the equation (rebuilding) you will not make your joints stronger, you will simply stress them over and over again, adding micro-tear to micro-tear, until something happens and a bad injury results (strained/torn joint which, due to less blood flow than a muscle, takes a long, long time and serious physio to properly rebuild).

When you are 18, you feel as though you are immortal and invincible. What you really are, however, is in a time delay and any abuse you think you can handle now will come back and haunt you when you hit 30, 40, 50, etc. (and wish you’d been more careful in your youth).

Equal parts work, rest, and nutrition. Miss any part of that, and you will likely suffer some way, some when.

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i think thats it.

do you do any martial arts as well?
do you do wing chun?

SLT

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my exercises train my joints more so i dont think im really overworking my muscles.

I would just love to hear how one trains the joints more than the muscles.

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Originally posted by anerlich

The exercise you are talking about, which I assume involves you kneeling down , rotating your feet out and putting your butt on the floor between them, is REALLY BAD for your knees. It puts undue strain on the knee ligaments, which you DO NOT want to stretch.

Sounds like a wrongly done version of Virasana.
The feet should not be turned sideways in virasana.
The tops of the feet should be on the floor.

As for it being bad for your knees, virasana is as bad for you as any other pose that you can’t get into but try to anyway.

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Re: Re: Re: newbie training questions

Originally posted by Toby
I hope you mean the opposite to this. High volume workouts build mass. Low volume workouts with heavy weights build strength.

Well volume is generally considered as the no. of reps x weight so Gangsterfist may have had the same total volume in both cases.

Nevertheless the assertion that higher reps & lower weights build strength is a bit strange. I suppose it depends what you define the word “strength” means.

If you mean “ability to lift the maximum amount of weight” then I think Gangsterfist is incorrect.

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Well, yeah, you’re on the same page as me. So say I do 400lbs * 10 reps = 4000lbs total volume for one exercise. I’d consider that low total volume with heavy weights. A bodybuilder might do 200lbs * 40 reps = 8000lbs. At the end of the day, a strength workout (the 1st one) will give the lifter a better 1RM. The bodybuilding workout will give the lifter a better mass gain but probably not the same 1RM as the strength lifter. And by strength, I mean what you do in your last sentence.

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Originally posted by IronFist
[B]

I would just love to hear how one trains the joints more than the muscles. [/B]

i was actually comparing pushups to doing weights. i thought that pushups trained the joints more then weights did.

[B]
do you do any martial arts as well?
do you do wing chun?

SLT
[/B]

No i haven’t gone around to joining any martial arts clubs, but i’ve read quite a bit on Bruce Lee and the way of the intercepting fist, i think Jeet Kune Do and a little on wing chun, Karate and Tae Kwon Do.

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Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]It’s my understanding that joints need rest to rebuild just like muscles. You make a muscle or joint stronger by straining them and then letting them rebuild to deal with the greater strain. If you forget about the second part of the equation (rebuilding) you will not make your joints stronger, you will simply stress them over and over again, adding micro-tear to micro-tear, until something happens and a bad injury results (strained/torn joint which, due to less blood flow than a muscle, takes a long, long time and serious physio to properly rebuild).

When you are 18, you feel as though you are immortal and invincible. What you really are, however, is in a time delay and any abuse you think you can handle now will come back and haunt you when you hit 30, 40, 50, etc. (and wish you’d been more careful in your youth).

Equal parts work, rest, and nutrition. Miss any part of that, and you will likely suffer some way, some when. [/B]

How much rest is required? i thought one night’s good sleep is enough. Is there a way to tell if i am over straining my joints? Is it really that bad? because i had an uncle from Vietnam (now in america) come visit us and he use to worked out on his arms and legs everyday when he was young and he was around 50ish when he visited us and he seemed in pretty fine condition.

17

As a general rule of thumb I would never train (as in weight train (obviously the intensity of the excercise/amount of weight you use plays a part)) the same body part two days in a row. Personally, I have been lifting weights for around 10 years now and I have found that to make continued progress (as in strength gains-extra reps and/or heavier weights) i musn’t work out more frequently then once a week. Whenever I do I actually get weaker since my body hasn’t had time to recover let alone grow from the previous work out. Obviously recovery ability varies from person to person. But lifting weights everyday is a sure fire recipe for overtraining. In short I subscribe to the view that to make strength gains your workouts should be intense, short and infrequent but consistent. Make sure you train to muscular failure and dont get caught up in doing loads of sets. You should also keep a training journal. This will help in monitoring your progress and to see the effect of any changes you decide to make.

I also reccommend any books by the late Mike Mentzer.

Hope this helps

Best
Nick

18

Originally posted by dodger87
i was actually comparing pushups to doing weights. i thought that pushups trained the joints more then weights did.
Your muscles don’t know the difference between pushups and benchpress, apart from slightly different actions and different amount of resistance. For me, doing 30 pushups would (for all intensive purposes) be the same as doing 30 reps of 70-80kg on benchpress.

As to how much to train, well, I train every day. Same muscle groups every day. If you’re interested, I do the PTP program. Works for me. I used to do 3 times a week with different muscles each time (chest & biceps, legs and abs, back and triceps). That worked well, too. Only problem for me was it was a hypertrophy workout, and I’d frequently get such tired muscles that it would impact my MA and other things, like riding my bike. The biggest benefit of PTP is the lack of tiredness/soreness. I’m also breaking PR’s after lifting for 6 years.

If you’re struggling to lift the same one day as you did the previous time, then you’re probably overdoing it with your workout. You can, however, do a light workout to help the muscles recover. E.g. do benchpress up to 100% of 1RM one day, then the next day or the day after do a few sets @ 20-30% of your 1RM.

Last thing - concentrate on compound lifts. They’re more functional. Squats, deadlifts, olympic lifts, pullups. Don’t isolate muscles unless you’re into bodybuilding or addressing a deficiency.

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Originally posted by Toby

Last thing - concentrate on compound lifts. They’re more functional. Squats, deadlifts, olympic lifts, pullups. Don’t isolate muscles unless you’re into bodybuilding or addressing a deficiency.

sorry could you explain these exercises more? i don’t really know what these nicknames mean.

If you’re struggling to lift the same one day as you did the previous time, then you’re probably overdoing it with your workout.

yeah i dont feel weaker the next day after i trained so i didn’t think i was overstraining. and by the way i dont lift or train with weights i only throw my own weight around.

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Toby is correct.