There are a couple on truthmartialarts.org too, one of them mine.
Not sure what your point is.
[QUOTE=Lama Pai Sifu;842293]You are right. I reread his post. I see your point.
Hey Rudy, please read my above message. I’m sure you’re ****ed, but please try to man-up and be done with it. It no longer serves any purpose.
Peace.[/QUOTE]
“Their obsession with me is well beyond creepy and border lining on the psychotic.”
Nuff said.
[QUOTE=1bad65;842289]
HE STARTED IT, AGAIN
[/QUOTE]
Alright, one of you, either one, needs to grow up. I used to frequent these boards, but the Rudy/Abel bull**** was so prevalent that EVERY discussion turned to a flame war between you two. Now I came back for two days, and it took 4 threads for it to come back. How long ago was your guys’ squabble? Moving on…
But anyway, OP. In Iron training, from a scientific standpoint, you’re basically hitting the muscle fibers/bone fibers and letting them recover from the bruises, right?
I thought I knew about how it worked until I started taking exercise science classes, and most impacts on muscle that end up hurting like iron training are bruises. Does the fiber just built up thicker epimysius? (not sure if that’s the right term, but I mean the skin covering the muscle fiber bundles) And in the case of the bone, why does the bone recover and become thicker?
Bone tissue becomes stronger with weight training, and I assume that a stressure force (i.e. the stress on the metacarpals when punching a block, or the stress on the forearm bones when punching a block) would be the same principle as weight training stresses. But why would shearing forces across the bone have the same effect? (i.e. when you would do a five star forearm hit deally, technical term, I know)
Thanks for any upcoming info! 
Edit: by “bruises” in the first paragraph, I mean small, minor bruises. Most injuries resulting from physical activity are strains, sprains, or bruises. (broken bones, dislocations, concussions, etc. are considered more serious, and I hope to god no one trains iron skills by dislocating limbs or getting concussions)
[QUOTE=Takuan;842335]Alright, one of you, either one, needs to grow up. I used to frequent these boards, but the Rudy/Abel bull**** was so prevalent that EVERY discussion turned to a flame war between you two. Now I came back for two days, and it took 4 threads for it to come back. How long ago was your guys’ squabble? Moving on…
But anyway, OP. In Iron training, from a scientific standpoint, you’re basically hitting the muscle fibers/bone fibers and letting them recover from the bruises, right?
I thought I knew about how it worked until I started taking exercise science classes, and most impacts on muscle that end up hurting like iron training are bruises. Does the fiber just built up thicker epimysius? (not sure if that’s the right term, but I mean the skin covering the muscle fiber bundles) And in the case of the bone, why does the bone recover and become thicker?
Bone tissue becomes stronger with weight training, and I assume that a stressure force (i.e. the stress on the metacarpals when punching a block, or the stress on the forearm bones when punching a block) would be the same principle as weight training stresses. But why would shearing forces across the bone have the same effect? (i.e. when you would do a five star forearm hit deally, technical term, I know)
Thanks for any upcoming info! :P[/QUOTE]
One of the best analogies was that of a bare foot distance runner VS one with running shoes.
The bones in the feet of the bare footed one would get denser quicker than those of the one with running shoes, perhaps even denser to a degree that the shoed runner will never get.
Although the bones do get stronger as a result of IP. The biggest factor is the increase in the hand’s muscle mass. IP training is about irritation. Trying to deliver more blood to the tissues of the hand. LOL@ the douches on BS trying to authoritatively do it “their way”.
Irronically, this thread is following exactly on par with what this board is like. IP isn’t really on topic to the thread. But because of its connection with the main poster you get the goobers to bring up the controversy.
My having a string of stalkers IS on topic for this thread. :rolleyes: Welcome to the board.
As the most Adaptable animal on the planet, we respond to stresses by becoming stronger than the stress (son long as it’s not great enough to break us). If we stress the muscles, they get stronger, if the stress the bones, they get stronger.
Although bones do get stronger through weight lifting, they seem to respond better to impact training (Muay Thai shins or Chinese Iron Hand for example). The Jow just speeds the process, and allows the process to be taken to a greater extent than without, that is all. In part, it’s just a steroid for bones, only without negative side effects.
It’s so simple everyone is missing it.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;842340]As the most Adaptable animal on the planet, we respond to stresses by becoming stronger than the stress (son long as it’s not great enough to break us). If we stress the muscles, they get stronger, if the stress the bones, they get stronger.
Although bones do get stronger through weight lifting, they seem to respond better to impact training (Muay Thai shins or Chinese Iron Hand for example). The Jow just speeds the process, and allows the process to be taken to a greater extent than without, that is all. In part, it’s just a steroid for bones, only without negative side effects.
It’s so simple everyone is missing it.[/QUOTE]
Dude, its TCMA, over complication is gung all its own !
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;842339] IP isn’t really on topic to the thread.
My having a string of stalkers IS on topic for this thread. :rolleyes: Welcome to the board.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=teetsao;842191]my main feild of study is iron skills
[/QUOTE]
lol wut?
I’m almost certain that the thread title was related to “Hi my name is ____, I do ____ and am proficient in knowledge of ______” not “Flame war of 2006-2008”
But I gotcha about the hand muscles, but my question was more related to the scientific aspect of the muscle fiber durability increase.
Just because your hand has more muscle mass doesn’t mean that it’s tougher.
My options I’m thinking about are:
- Thicker fiber covers due to repeated bruising.
or - Nerve dulling.
or both.
More like the resistance of larger muscle tissue to the surrounding myofacial sheathing.
Their shouldn’t be any real prolonged bruising or hematoma. Thats what the jow, massage and boiling/heating/jacuzzi of the hand is trying to avoid.
And no, the thread topic is "I’m new to the board, what can I expect, what I hope find. "
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;842340]As the most Adaptable animal on the planet, we respond to stresses by becoming stronger than the stress (son long as it’s not great enough to break us). If we stress the muscles, they get stronger, if the stress the bones, they get stronger.
Although bones do get stronger through weight lifting, they seem to respond better to impact training (Muay Thai shins or Chinese Iron Hand for example). The Jow just speeds the process, and allows the process to be taken to a greater extent than without, that is all. In part, it’s just a steroid for bones, only without negative side effects.
It’s so simple everyone is missing it.[/QUOTE]
My beef is with the term “gets stronger.” I don’t understand why it gets stronger. I know that after you enough blocks that your knuckles don’t hurt as bad. My question is more on a physiological examination level.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/images/articles/musclefiber.jpg
in that picture, you have the muscles covered by the fascia, epimysium, paramysium, fasciculus, and endomysium.
But saying “It’s simple” isn’t exactly right. That’s like saying “lift weights. your muscles get bigger and stronger, it’s simple!”
I don’t think anyone has figured out the mechanizum that explains growth related to stress yet..on any level, let alone bone density.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;842350]More like the resistance of larger muscle tissue to the surrounding myofacial sheathing.
Their shouldn’t be any real prolonged bruising or hematoma. Thats what the jow, massage and boiling/heating/jacuzzi of the hand is trying to avoid.[/QUOTE]
right! ok. That makes sense. So the covering sheath of the muscle gets bruised, and heals up a little bit thicker each time. And yeah, the bruising would last long. It’d be classified as a 1st degree or grade 1 contusion. (microscopic damage/swelling, barely sore, etc.) Which is where lots of people go wrong with this type of training, going in and going crazy and bruising up really bad.
And yeah, the treatment post training is exactly right. After you train, ice for a while, then massage and heat, etc.
Actually, thinking about it right now, deep tissue massage causes microfibral abrasion on the fascia and other covers, which would loosen up the surface of them, allowing them to build up thicker, as well. Right?
Its simple , really, In practice. Finding the science behind it won’t find you any short cuts. Which is the main reason people strive to dissect it so much. The “get away with it” mentality is so American.
Like the douches on BS trying to do it without all that it entails thinking that all old practices are just there for show or for superstition.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;842354]I don’t think anyone has figured out the mechanizum that explains growth related to stress yet..on any level, let alone bone density.[/QUOTE]
Muscle hypertrophy is related to enzyme depletion in the muscle fiber, and then it refuels and crams more in the fiber. (Just learned that today :D)
Bone density is affected by osteoclasts/osteoblasts, which are regulated by hormones, and training with stresses on bone increase the density of the lattice pattern in bones, but you’re right, I’m not sure WHY the hell the body can tell when to increase bone density. It’s not like testosterone and osteoblasts have a 100% correlation, if they did, then the more test you have have, the denser your bones would be. But then again maybe that is part of it, the more volume of weight training you do, the more test is released into the blood stream.
I’m gonna have to talk to my professors about that one.
Dangit RD, you’re making me use my brain 
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;842346]Dude, its TCMA, over complication is gung all its own ![/QUOTE]
Obviously this needs to be repeated.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;842354]I don’t think anyone has figured out the mechanizum that explains growth related to stress yet..on any level, let alone bone density.[/QUOTE]
That’s what one guy who believes in this is basically saying on BS. He can’t explain it, but he says it works. :rolleyes:
I will say that Dale’s system requires more then just the jow and striking. He told the tester to not drink alcohol, not eat fried foods, no cold drinks after a workout, and to abstain from sex.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;842357]Its simple , really, In practice. Finding the science behind it won’t find you any short cuts. Which is the main reason people strive to dissect it so much. The “get away with it” mentality is so American.
Like the douches on BS trying to do it without all that it entails thinking that all old practices are just there for show or for superstition.[/QUOTE]
Finding the science behind it helps you understand it. You can’t understand it unless you know WHY it’s happening. And I don’t think that’s the American mentality at all. I think it’s the American mentality to say “I don’t care how it works, as long as it works.”
Perfect example: cars. Most people don’t know the difference between brake fluid and gasoline. But they know how to operate cars, and use them every day. I don’t like not knowing how things work.
Edit: But I see what you mean. The REAL way to go about the shortcutting, isn’t really shortcutting. Just like cheat reps in the gym, they should never make the set easier, they should make it harder. If you found a way to “shortcut” to results, there’s a way to work harder to obtain better results. I’m not sure if my idea coagulated properly, but… ya feelin’ me?
And as to the shortcut business, that’s the scientific method! You take something, find out why it works, apply a tweak, confirm scientific data, improve upon it, repeat. Not understanding how it works is foolish.
[QUOTE=Takuan;842365]And as to the shortcut business, that’s the scientific method! You take something, find out why it works, apply a tweak, confirm scientific data, improve upon it, repeat. Not understanding how it works is foolish.[/QUOTE]
This makes alot of sense. Good post.
[QUOTE=1bad65;842364]That’s what one guy who believes in this is basically saying on BS. He can’t explain it, but he says it works. :rolleyes:
I will say that Dale’s system requires more then just the jow and striking. He told the tester to not drink alcohol, not eat fried foods, no cold drinks after a workout, and to abstain from sex.[/QUOTE]
That is part of the TCMA chi portion of IP.
Wither you believe in cho or not is up to you, but since it really is no big deal to do what he said I don’t see a problem in doing it, it certainly doens’t hurt and who knows, it might actually help.
If it doesn’t, no harm done.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;842367]That is part of the TCMA chi portion of IP.
Wither you believe in cho or not is up to you, but since it really is no big deal to do what he said I don’t see a problem in doing it, it certainly doens’t hurt and who knows, it might actually help.
If it doesn’t, no harm done.[/QUOTE]
Well first off I think chi is bunk, so if something is supposed to work and chi is a factor I tend to look at it very sceptically.
Second, Dale’s way introduces alot of variables. Anyone with a scientific background will tell you that the more variables there are, the harder it is to test.
No big deal being celibate! :eek: And no cold drinks after a workout seems ridiculous as well.