I’ve been taking Hung gar for about 10 months now and I’ve learned a lot of the basics but I’m having trouble applying them while I am sparring. I feel like I haven’t progressed since I started, is that a bad sign? Are there any tips to improve my fighting? Are there any special drills or forms to help me become a better fighter?
Stance more.
Forms more.
Sparr more.
Ask questions more.
Those things will NOT make you a better fighter. Only fighting will.
You can train the things you will use or have during a fight, such as your mind/body/spirit, to fight better you need to fight. Doing stance will make your stance better, doing forms makes your forms better, and sparring makes you better at sparring, none of them directly translate to fighting ability.
You will probably always feel as if there is still something to improve (sometimes greatly) upon, because there always is and will be.
Hmmmm
Not sure I totally agree with Yenhoi on this. This is just my opinion though. One thing commonly said by martial arts players that have been practicing for 20-30+ years is that “many paths lead up the same mountian” Ie: Practicing a hard art leads to softness, practicing a softer art adds in the hard aspects later, etc. Forms, stancework, fighting, developing your senses, relaxation, eyes, and many other things all manifest in how you move, think and feel when you fight. My best advice to ANY martial artist including myself, is to practice the BASICS. You most likely will never reach a point where you are not practicing them in fact, and they will always involve and help you build a strong personal style up from them. In fact arts like Hsing I and other internals spend much of their time just standing in one stance, yet this improves MANY things relating to their styles. So to put it bluntly..practice practice practice, and always reevaluate what you already know when you learn something new.
You will get worse before you get better.
Every individual possesses some instinctual fighting ability. When you start learning a MA you essentially erase that instinct and all the bad habits that go along with it that would limit your potential as a fighter. There will be a time when you realize your old way of fighting/moving was limiting/ineffective and you “try” to use your new techniques/ways of moving. However, you have not yet " mastered" the new methods so they feel awkward. Continue to persevere and train hard and you will make it through this period. The techniques you are learning will become so ingrained in you that they will become your instinctual way to fighting/moving. Then you can use them effectively in real combat. This is called the “no mind.”
There have been time in sparring when I have used technique almost directly from forms and I didn’t even realize it until afterwards and I analzyed what I did.
Hung Ga is an awesome system. If you have a qualified teacher and are dedicated you can reach a very high level of achievement and fighting ability in this art.
Good Point Fu Pow, Its a nice feeling to not have any idea what you are going to do and then to see something you may not have even ever thought of conciously as a certain application just pop out of you when you think about it later.
Wow thanks for all your help. Right now I’m working on two man drills a lot, like someone throws a punch and I do such and such technique until I get familiar with it and then I move on. My instructor says that one day everything will “click” and my fighting will be much better. We spar about one a week for about 2 hours, is that enough pratice? Thanks again for all your help =).
Practice, practice, practice, practice.
Practice your techniques.
Practice your forms.
Practice your partner work.
Practice your sparring.
It sounds a lot simpler than it is! 
Nice post Fu-Pow.
Work on your basics homey.
In Hung Ga, one must know his applications.
Take the opening Hung Ga salute for instance. It can be many things:
- grab the guy, knee to the groin
- step in, reverse punch
- grab head, apply knuckle to temple
- grab shoulders, bite the opponent
- parry opponent’s lead hand, strike armpit or head
- block incoming strike with either arm or leg
- forward choke
- “ready” position for combat
- other moves - make them up as you go along
When doing the form alone, one must imagine doing it on an opponent - and then imagine it being done to oneself.
Knowing the counter is just as important as knowing the move.
WOW!!! :eek:
Now you’re a Hung Gar sifu Huang?
After only one lesson? :rolleyes:
Either you’ve got the hugest learning curve EVER or you’r the biggest Hungabee I’ve ever seen…
“10) other moves - make them up as you go along”
:rolleyes: hmmmm… your normal M.O. huh Huang?
I woulda expected telling the kid to train what he learns in class, outta class a lot; or bugging his sifu with questions on what he should/needs to work on… but NOT trying to teach the kid hung gar appz…BOLD…
So Nick, my boy, when are we going to fight?
As always, you’re still deathly afraid to face me. Where’s your contact information so that I can demonstrate the above moves on you?
My door remains open to you, and I’d love to challenge you in Hawaii.
Who is your sifu anyway, Nick? I want to have a long hard talk with him.
And while you’re at it, why don’t you tell us why the moves I posted above WOULDN’T work?
Guohen,
ARE YOU NUTS ! ? TIT SIN KUEN ? ! ?
The guy said he’s only been at this for about 10 months. Tit Sin Kuen is for, like, after about 10 years maybe.
Huangkaivun,
I have serious reservations about the apllicability of that salute for any of the uses you mentioned except for number 5 and even for number five it’s only o.k. Mainly it’s just a salute. I do like the block and punch idea but mostly just in principle.
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grab the guy, knee to the groin - twist stance —> hanging stance. Where’s the knee?
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step in, reverse punch —> maybee if you interpret 'reverse punch very liberally. There’s no bow stance so I see no reverse punch.
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grab head, apply knuckle to temple —> has posibilities but it’s really a stretch to turn that first block into a grab. . . on second thought , what the hell.
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grab shoulders, bite the opponent —> please don’t include biting as an actual technique.
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parry opponent’s lead hand, strike armpit or head —> this is the one i like . . . sort of.
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block incoming strike with either arm or leg —> not clear how this is different from number 5. Actually number 2 maybe should get lumped in with number 5 as if you accept that punch as a reverse punch then the two tyechniques are the same.
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forward choke —> What ? How? What are you talking about?
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“ready” position for combat —> either you mean this is just a salute or your nuts.
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other moves - make them up as you go along —> If this is what you come up with stay away from making up your own moves.
I do give points for creativity and using your imagination during practice.
Back on topic:
At ten months I wouldn’t worry about sparring much. Just get the stances and basic techniques down. The two person sets will come later and then sparring. There is a logical progression to be followed.
- solo forms - creating the raw materials. gives you a vocabulary.
- 2 person forms - linckages, applications, reactions, timing etc.
- free sparring.
There are combos to be drilled and other exercises but each in it’s own time. Don’t get ahead of yourself. You may learn to fight quicker but it won’t be Hung-gar. If you don’t have the patience, you are better of going to a kickboxiong gym where you can start sparring from the get-go.
omarthefish, you’re obviously a lineage and categories guy.
Me, I was trained Hung Ga as a FIGHTER. And this is how I fight using the salute:
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The traditional Hung Ga salute is done on one leg. The OTHER leg, bent, can be a kick or a knee.
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Typically, the opening salute is done with a fist in one hand with an open palm in the other. The open palm can be used to target or parry the opponent, the fist can be used to strike. This is a great way to get by a guy’s guard, and styles like Wing Chun and Hsing Yi (among others) use this as well.
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When you are grappling, particularly in close quarters or on the ground, often the opponent’s head is well within your reach. By focusing a single knuckle on the fist hand, you can attack the temple and injure the temporal artery. This technique works well in headlock as well (head noogie).
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What is this “biting is not an actual technique” stuff? Some guy trying to kill you attacks, you BITE HIM. This is one of the most effective self-defense techniques there is. Try telling that to any woman who successfully used a bite to extricate herself from a would-be rapist - she’ll bite YOU. Or try telling it to Paul Vunak, who put the bite on his “Street Safe” video.
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Why should you even care? In a real sparring situation, you don’t even have time to think through this stuff. You just DO IT and that’s that.
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When astride an opponent (you’re in the “mount” position), you can use the opponent’s collar to choke him. The fist holds the lapel and the other arm lends either support or guards the choker. The Gracies use this move as well, though they use more of an X-motion.
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In old China, this stance was the way for saluting to opponents in a way that they couldn’t sucker punch you. In the 21st century, it’s typical for a guy to put more weight on one leg and hold his hands at chest level. It doesn’t look exactly like the form, but only nonfighters would be dumb enough to fight EXACTLY like the form prescribes.
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You’re right. I ought to stay away from making these moves. Heaven forbid I pull them on some guy trying to take me out - I might HURT HIM.
You talk, I spar. And that’s that.
Well, I’ll admit I do like tracing lineages I like to know what’s transmitted and what’s just your personal take although I’m not sure how it’s relevant here. Are you trying to imply that if you make a point of learning the history of your art you can’t fight?
I don’t know what you mean by 'a categories guy’at all. Feel free to elaborate. It sounds like your saying I’m close minded but if you meant something nicer please let me know.
1) The traditional Hung Ga salute is done on one leg. The OTHER leg, bent, can be a kick or a knee.
As a 'lineage guy’you think I’m not aware of how the traditonal salute is done? I suppose your ceraintly in position for a snapkick. . . I just think you shouldn’t make to much out of this salute.
2) Typically, the opening salute is done with a fist in one hand with an open palm in the other. . .
Don’t get to worked up. I’m just quibbling over calling it a reverse punch. If the terminology is not clear than BBS communication is an exercise in futility. I’ve always thought of a 'reverse punch’as being in a classic bow stance.
3) When you are grappling, particularly in close quarters or on the ground, often the opponent’s head is well within your reach. . .
I already agreed that this had possibilities. I think that the hanging stance is suicide if your grappling.
7) When astride an opponent (you’re in the “mount” position) . . .
What? This is just way to much of a stretch. Now the salute can be interpreted as a part of ground fightong. That opening couldn’t be ****her away from a choke.
9) In old China, this stance . . .
I’m sticking with my original comment on this one. You could certainly change it and then make it a ‘ready’ stance, but then it’s NOT the opening move.
10) You’re right. I ought to stay away from making these moves. Heaven forbid I pull them on some guy trying to take me out - I might HURT HIM.
You certainly might. You also could do that just from experimenting with your friends and trying out all sorts of your own personal made up combinations. That doesn’t mean they’re there in the form.
You talk, I spar. And that’s that.
This comment is just a cheap shot. To me it demonstates a kind of close mindedness I feel you implied I had by labeling me as a ‘lineage guy’ or a ‘categories guy’
How do you know how I train? Some people talk, some spar, some actually fight. Is it because Idisagree strongly on your interpretations that I must be ignorant of the practical aspects? Perhaps it’s because I said DM shouldn’t be to axious to spar to early.
I believe in making every effort to grasp the original flavor of a given style of fighting. In the end we all must find our own way but as you know, there is more to Hung-gar than just a collection of external movements. There are principles at work and if you try to ruch into sparring to early or to fast you will probably learn to fight but you won’t learn what HUNG GAR has to say about fighting. You will learn much faster and more effectively by just taking the standard MMA mix of Thai boxing, wresting/Judo and western boxing.
I take issue with many of your suggestions because if you are
fighting as opposed to sparring they will put you in a world of trouble.
More like they’ll get you out of a world of trouble, which is the whole point of learning fast effective techniques.
For every technique I have listed that you don’t like, I can think of plenty of other professionals who USE this stuff day in and day out.
Confucius say “The teacher holds up one corner, the student comes up with the other three”. Just because you can’t accept something to work doesn’t mean that it won’t - particularly in the hands of somebody who CAN make it work.
Eventually, you’ll realize that Hung Ga isn’t about adhering to form and lineage.
You’ll realize that Hung Ga is about realizing YOUR potential, not about copying others.
They may be used by professionals every day but that is completely irrelevant to wether or not they are contained with the opening movements to the form.
“Getting you out of a world of trouble”, may be the whole point of learning fast effective techniques but learning fast effective techniques is not the whole point of Hung Gar. I repeat: If your primary goal is to learn to fight quickly, you are better off with the standard MMA mix.
Your quote is somebody elses translation from something said by one of Confucious’s students, Chen Kung. He said, “wen yi de san” Literally translated it means, “ask 1 get 3”.
I love the irony of using Confucious to support freedom from tradition and creativity in your interpretations of movements.
While, out of context, it can be seen to be an argument for extrapolating from techniques on your own, in context it suggests more that you should be able to use the information learned in one field of study and apply it to others. Bo Yu asks Chen Kung how he learned about rites and social customs and good speech if he only studied poetry. Chen Kung replies, “Ask 1 get 3. By studying poetry, I learned about poetry, rites and the proper relationship between student and teacher.”
When learning a technique you should certainly be sensitive to priniciples which may apply to other techniques or situations but the original techniques is still the original technique. If it stimulates you imagination, good for you, but that stuff is just what you made up on ytour own wether it works or not.
Eventually maybe you’ll realize that a superficial similarity between techniques doesn’t make for a valid interpretation.
Eventually maybe you will realize that includes learning the original intent behind the forms and includes lineage.
Eventually maybe you’ll realize some of the benifits of learning what tradition has to say on certain subjects.
Eventually maybe you’ll realize that copying others is the main way we learn and does not interfere with your ability to create new things.
Lastly, how does any of this have to do with the original question about sparring? Specifically, “having trouble applying them while I am sparring.” This argument about what is or is not in the form is off topic. I apologize for that.
Re: Need help with fighting
Originally posted by DrunkenMunky
I’ve been taking Hung gar for about 10 months now and I’ve learned a lot of the basics but I’m having trouble applying them while I am sparring. I feel like I haven’t progressed since I started, is that a bad sign? Are there any tips to improve my fighting? Are there any special drills or forms to help me become a better fighter?
If you don’t think you’ve progressed ANY in ten months, then yes, that is a bad sign. It shouldn’t take you that long to notice progress. To help make yourself a better fighter, analyze yourself - write it down. I find that helpful. you want to:
- Identify flaws in your fighting
- Identify strong points
- Determine how you can improve the weaknesses
- put it all together
Basically, you must have a plan, and you have to train. Hard. No quick and dirty shortcuts. You stated that you can’t apply the basics while fighting. Put that in your analysis. That alone tells me that you either aren’t drilling them enough or aren’t drilling them properly. Have you brought this issue to your sifu? If so, what did he say?
omarthefish, those were very well-worded arguments.
The trouble is that making up one’s own applications in Hung Ga has EVERYTHING TO DO with sparring.
I see that you’re learning Hung Ga just for the sake of learning Hung Ga. Once again, I learn Hung Ga to FIGHT.
Copying others may be the only way YOU learn, but that’s not the case for many others. Forget not that there would be no Hung Ga if somebody didn’t invent it. SOMEBODY invented it, and somebody added to it. Lam Tsai Wing even added his own Saber set to the style to deal with Western weaponry.
I’m as traditional as they come, which means that I understand the need to make up one’s own applications as well as using that from the past. The true traditional way is to adjust to new situations regardless of the “rules”.
When you actually fight, you’ll be confronted by many strange situations that even the best training cannot totally prepare a person for. That’s where a fighter has to innovate his own approach to things. No teacher can do that for a student - a student must come up with his own answers on the fly. THIS is what Hung Ga is supposed to teach.
Valid? Ask anybody who has really fought and they’ll tell you that the only “valid” thing is that which WORKS.
You need to get in the ring and SPAR, omarthefish.
You’ll see and feel what I’m talking about - THE HARD WAY.