My thoughts on chi sao

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

People who say chisau is merely a drill are very, very low level practitioners with very limited – if at all – exposure to ‘live’ chisau.

Well, that’s one opinion.

I think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don’t like that word, call it a “training method” as he did). From what I read, it’s still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, unlike your rather uncharitable post. chisauking, the republic is coming.

Drills need not be closed or shallow. There need be no “merely” about them. But they are not fights, nor is chi sao.

Victor, I’ve never met KJ, but the mental picture I have requires no makeup. This particular lily requires no gilding :slight_smile:

22

Correct Anerlich-

KJ needs no makeup!

FWIW- a fight is a fight is a fight-

the rest including the cage, the mat, the ring, sparring, tui shou, chi sao are all imo simulations with varying protocols… opinions vary on their relevance for learning self defense..

23

anerlich,
[ think Gary Lam is actually saying chi sao is what I call a drill (or if you don’t like that word, call it a “training method” as he did). From what I read, it’s still as drill and not a fight according to Messrs Lam and LeBlanc, who both make a good deal of sense, ]]

i’ll chime in a bit , gary teaches chi sau as a progressive experience , first it’s simple hand/leg/body co ordiantion, understanding the reasons the shapes exisit and the refernce points they occupy , how to link them and flow .

then after that the focus shifts to feeling and control you now have the tools , so you must understand what these tools are telling you

lastly you apply stradagy and refinment of your own physical and emotional position .

so first we are concerned about what we can do to the other guy but later we are more concerned with our own position , to allways seek our best position and not worry so much about what he is trying to make me do.

and your right in no way is this to be confused with a fight .

developing attributes not that complicated , when one is developing one does not try and destroy

24

You know, Ernie, the most frustrating thing for me to learn so far is the listening skill of the feeling and control part that you mention. Hardest lesson to accept: L I S T E N = S I L E N T. Thanks for the good reminder!

25

With respect to what happens when the rules applicable to a drill, an exercise, a game, a match or whatever name we’re using for the interaction are broken, there are only three options.

The person obeying the rules can allow themselves to be abused, or they can call the cheating for what it is and quit, or they can agree that the rules are flexible enough to change and proceed to choose how they are going to break them.

Our philosophy towards Chi Sao is that it is more a training platform than a suitable competitive platform because it requires a certain level of trust. We agree to meet up with each other, we agree to the amount of contact that we will permit, we agree to the types of strikes that are and aren’t in play, and we agree to the purpose of that interaction. When we’re training on a technique or an attribute, having that stable relationship allows us to experiment and make mistakes. When it’s competitive, it must regress to the tried and true, which is why competitive Chi Sao often seems very crude when the skill levels are low or moderate.

If one player deliberately and chronically breaks the agreement, they basically forfeit the right to complain about the other player’s response. If that includes ratcheting up the contact, so be it. It was their choice to change the terms of the agreement and break the trust. Ironically, a cheater will lose all composure when the tables are turned and they find that what they’re asking for does indeed have a price.

26

Good essay and summary, JAFO.

  • kj
27

Talking on different levels…

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
[b]To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person’s limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap…

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It’s not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping…

Here’s my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can’t get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he’s breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?[/b]
From my experience in tournaments, very few people play by the “rules”. Some don’t even read them. Most people just forget themselves. Not everyone though…

Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard…
In a way, I’d say that’s true, because some people adhere to the sportsmanship of the tournament environment. Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.
Originally posted by AndrewS
[b]Chi sao is not a fight. It’s a freakin’ drill. It’s there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the ‘rules’ of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- ‘trapping’ is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew[/b]
All these comments tell me that we are all speaking about different areas within martial arts, rather than one particular environment. I think some people only see it as a classroom drill (instructional). Others see it from competition/sporting events (competitive). Some, I think, have touched slightly on its relationship to real combat. After reading the thread, I think people are talking on different levels, even though it’s all part of the same picture.

Q1. If Chi Sau is only a drill, how can it be the “soul/heart of Wing Chun”?

Q2. If Chi Sau is a game, how can it be the “soul/heart of Wing Chun”?

Q3. If Chi Sau is not about fighting, what business does it have in the Wing Chun system?

Based on that logic, #1 & 2 doesn’t make sense to me. I think someone needs to ask, “Is Wing Chun about fighting or not?” If not, then I can see the first two questions as logical.

==============

I see that all combative training methods should end up as a reflection of realistic application. We are learning how to fight, based on economy of motion and superior energetics, yes? What I have learned from my training:

Drilling:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step one: build the specific body mechanics (motor skills) in relation to the exercise being learned.

Study and laboratory:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step two: enhance and refine the body/mind connection with technical knowledge of the mechanics at hand with the corresponding principles and concepts. Energetics are properly guided and developed as well. Test structural integrity and striking power against stationary hitting pads. Test structural integrity and energetics against a skilled partner.

Challenge:(real-time testing phase)
Step three: test structural awareness, reactional speed and recovery skill through real time challenges against a live aggressor in accordance to the skill being developed. Here, through experience and self-discovery is “my” Chi Sau understood in terms of proper time and space, function and purpose.

For me, Chi Sau begins as a drill/game. That should be true for all of our technique training. I feel it should not, however, stay that way.

I see Chi Sau as a last (not the first) resort of defense against a grapple attack or nose-to-nose confrontation. Head on engagements by human nature tend to lead into grabbing and/or trading hits. If you are not nose-to-nose with the attacker, I do not think the sophistication of Chi Sau is remotely neccesary.

From what I have learned,

  1. Structural preservation and energy application: Chi Sau (coupled with footwork tactics) is the systematic use of wrist contact and control for close-range fighting, requiring highly sophisticated energetics in accordance with the same principles and concepts that guide body structure.

  2. Gate theories: It is designed to keep an opponent from bypassing the inside line of defense (Wu Sau distance), should preliminary defenses fail.

  3. Counter-measures: Chi Sau allows one to prevent the attacker from taking you into groundfighting, by use of bridge control and manipulation in all directions. Should one lose that control from the bridge, grappling is the only option left (provided the attacker has forward intent) due to the proximity of range.

WRT competition, Chi Sau tournaments are designed to test your ability to Chi Sau for prolonged amounts of time. It is not about fighting. If you want another option to test your Chi Sau skill in “simulated fighting” (as close to real fighting, but still bounded by rules), go to the full contact fighting section and test it.

This has been my experience in Chi Sau, and obviously what is true for me might not be true for someone else.

28

This was a very good post by Savi on chi sao, and I would like to comment on it - since it could easily have been posted on the Connecting Wing Chun w/grappling thread…

First, to pick up on some of his points:

He wrote…If chi sao is only a game or a drill…and if chi sao is not about fighting - why is it in the wing chun system? How could it be the heart/soul of wing chun if these other things are true ?

He then goes on to give a good summary of the progressive training goals of chi sao and calls it a last resort against grappling - due to its wrist control and footwork as a control for close-range fighting…“If control of the bridge is lost…grappling is the only option left.” (Because of the proximity).

All of this is true…

BUT THE POTENTIAL PROBLEM that chi sao presents within the wing chun community, as I see it - and I believe this is the thinking behind my post, and AndrewS’s post, and Anerlich’s post…

Is the fact that TOO MUCH chi sao and not enough sparring that begins from non-contact range GIVES A DISTORTED PICTURE to the mind of the wing chun student in terms of how to translate what is learned in chi sao…

INTO other types of FIGHTING situations.

Secondly - and this is where I part company with Savi (and many other people, I’m sure)…IMO…In certain situations I DO SEE chi sao as a last resort to grappling - because I don’t want to grapple IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION (ie. - rough terrain…his friends are around, etc.)…

But in other instances I MIGHT WANT TO GRAPPLE because none of the downside (as I just explained) is present AND I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER

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…I SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WIN THE FIGHT QUICKER than if i were to continue to try and use more conventional wing chun strategies and techniques.

30

Hey Savi,

if chi sao isn’t a competetion or form of fighting, ‘drill’ or ‘training environment’ are pretty good words for it.

Chi sao in my line covers the whole gamut from very soft single arm palm/jum/punch/bong, to broken contact, hooks, plum, throwing, groundwork, elbows, etc., to various biomechanical reducto ad absurdums in softness and pressure.

It’s still just a drill- set the parameters to use it to teach a lesson.

Andrew

31

chi sau completion
what’s next slt competitions ?
standing meditation competitions ?
point sparring ?
wing chun cookie cutter karate systems all aboard !!!

I thought wing chun was for street fighting , when did it become a Olympic sporting event [ this idea was actually proposed at the friendship seminar from what I heard ]

there is no such thing as competitions in a street fight the ability to adapt and recover are paramount ,
[ THERE IS NO ADAPTABILITY WHEN TO WING CHUN GUYS FACE EACH OTHER YOU ARE BOTH DING THE SAME THING AND KNOW IT ]

let the illusion go

step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world .
sorry for coming off strong but the idea of a chi sau competition make me want to vomit it perpetuates a lie and prepares people to get killed

o.k. i feel better now :smiley:

32

You want a Coke, Ernie? Ha! Ha! Chi Sau is the pencil sharpener, It sharpens your sleepy head to write meaningful doodles on the blank faces of your enemies.

Regards,
PH

33

This reminds me of a little inside joke me and my friends had going on. We were just starting to learn chin na, and learned a lot of techniques when someone grabs your wrist. We would joke about how if you were about to get in a fight, and you challenged the guy to grab your wrist just so you could apply the little knowledge you knew and use it to your advantage.

Competition fighting and real fighting will always be completely different. Yesterday at kung fu class we were doing some ground fighting drills where you slipped and fell, or your opponet did and grabbed you and took you down with you. Then we started sparring with the same situation. I can tell you chi sao helped me on the ground. I felt my partner try to mount me when I fell on my side, so I shrimped and pok’d his shoulder making him post on one arm and then using that posted arm against him to gain leverage on the ground. I did this because I felt him going for the mount immediately. I could not see him that well because how we fell down, and I ended up landing on my side. However, since we fell on top of one another I felt his movements and was able to act upon them and get out the situation.

Chi sao is not a combat drill, but its a tool to sharpen your combat sense so to speak. No matter what the technique may be, trapping, controlling, attacking, defending, grappling, ground fighting etc, chi sao is there to help you.

Chi sao is so dynamic as well. Just like the fact that you will never experience the same fight twice, you will never experience the same chi sao twice. This is where I don’t see the reason for chi sao competition. I don’t see how one could put a system and set of rules on something so dynamic, but then again I have not really witness much chi sao competition. The dynamics of it teach you how to act and react in certain situations.

This is just some of my ideas about chi sao, and some have them changed recently. I am also sure they will probably change again down the road. See how dynamic it is…

34

“Step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world”…

Ernie…You crack me up, man…I swear !!!

Got to look you up someday and workout together - and would love to see AndrewS and Dhira there as well.

Later,

Victor

35

This reminds me of a little inside joke me and my friends had going on. We were just starting to learn chin na, and learned a lot of techniques when someone grabs your wrist. We would joke about how if you were about to get in a fight, and you challenged the guy to grab your wrist just so you could apply the little knowledge you knew and use it to your advantage.

One of his 5th Dan students showed me a Patrick McCarthy (8th Dan (I think), recent translator of the Bubishi) video of his Bunkai. PM asked a rhetorical question about why there are so many wrist grab counters in the forms; his answer, “a wrist grab just about always happens after you’ve grabbed the guy’s throat or testicles!”

Interesting tape and guy. He has some awesome weapons skills.

36

victor
glad to spread the humor:)

hopefully life will let us hang out some time i just had a workout with dhira and andrew yesterday as a matter of fact

37

True, but the larger picture…

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]let the illusion go

step out of the lab and play with the big boys in the real world .
sorry for coming off strong but the idea of a chi sau competition make me want to vomit it perpetuates a lie and prepares people to get killed

o.k. i feel better now :smiley: [/B]
Glad you feel better Ernie. Unfortunately for your weak-stomach ;), there are Chi Sau competitions out there… no different than another version of a friendship seminar - just a different environment. OTOH, all Wing Chun training and applications should be intended to lead you out of the “lab” environment and into real-world applications. That should be true for all combat styles, though; not just WC.

If your Sifu never gets you there, you are left to fend for yourself. If your Sifu can show you Chi Sau in relation to real combat perspective, the better for you. I too, feel that many people do not make it to “real-world” skill testing, only classroom study. Keep in mind, the “lab” stage is just another stage in everyone’s martial journey, and should not be the end of that journey IMO.

BTW, there are also “little boys” in the real world who think they are “big boys” and tough guys. I prefer to keep a more open mind on things (more than one side to anything, ya?).

We can only believe that which we can see. I’m not here to convince anybody, just share my thoughts and experiences.

38

no worries savi
you know i just put it out raw and un cut
but you touched on something very true about if your sifu can gude you to the connection of real combat

i have always felt that if who ever you are learning from in ‘‘general’’ should have real experience , if your , mine , anyones sifu has not actually fought and quite a bit there will be much room for b.s. and un tested concepts .

when you fight certian realities become evedent and alot of so so stuff doesn’t fly . you start to cut out the fat and train on the right aspects in respect to combative effecientcy

each generation that passes with out some for of honest testing creates a new watered down generation of technitions and more and more room for b.s. and illusions

just my 2 cents

39

I agree a good sifu is hard to find. I have trained with some bad ones and some good ones. I am very lucky to have the sifu I do now. I think I am learning at a pretty fast rate with my current sifu compared to past martial arts instructors.

I remember the first time sparring kinda hard with my sifu. He was obviously dumbing himself down to my level, even I could tell that. In the end I surprised him with a quick punch that made contact to his jaw, right when he felt it he went low and punched me in the groin. My punch just grazed his jaw. He did it out of reflex when he felt the hit. That was a while ago, and at that point I knew he was a good teacher and I had finally found a good place to train. I was in pain, but it was still good to know he wasn’t holding back on me and that I was learning real life situation stuff. Now I guard my groin better in combat you could say.

If you think you are having problems getting the concepts or techniques from chi sao, why not try to go back to single hand chi sao and review what you think you are doing wrong (or what you are doing right, or both)?

Everytime I get stuck I get told go back to the SLT, go back to don chi sao, go back to basic triangle foot work. A lot to times you can find the answer right there.

Taking a punch is something that is not really taught and I think its important. Ask one of your sihings you punch you in the face sometime see if you can take it. It may be kind of harsh training method but if you can’t take one punch then you probably won’t win any real fight.

40

Taking a punch is something that is not really taught and I think its important.

Speak for yourself about it not being taught - I agree it is important. Check out RMA-style “shock absorption” sometime. If you spar with contact you are learning to take punches, but there are less hit and miss methods to learn to deal with impact, which me and my training buds practise regularly.

Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.

If that’s so, then it’s another deserved nail in the coffin of the notion of WC being “too deadly to spar with”, unless the people hit are being carted off to hospital.

OTOH, the “rules” or judges may feed such an attitude. One of my teachers was one of the first gwailo to take up TCMA in Australia, after gaining a Nidan in Goju Ryu Karate. His WC techniques were not given points in Karate point contests as the judges would say he had “no power” - he had to “accidentally” whack a couple of guys to make his point.

He also used to do breaking demonstrations, using his “no-power” non-point-scoring backfist to break stacks of eight untreated roof tiles.

Not much “contact karate” around in those days, a lot of those guys used to use the “too deadly” reasoning (if “reasoning” is the right word) as well.