[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818282]I’ve been working with one of the guys who worked with Jerry on developing the Red Zone on solving the problems encountered from the overwraps to the disarms.
Have you done any live training yet? If so, what things are working for you and which things are you having more trouble with?[/QUOTE]
Between running the school, training fighters (both MMA and kickboxing), filming my own stuff (working on a huge project), and doing seminars in all honesty I haven’t had as much time as I wanted to play with this. I was even supposed to hook up with a Sayoc Kali guy around here and have yet to actually do it
I fall back on my original training in the sense that we DID focus just on the knife and trying to disarm. Some of it clearly worked, I’m trying to integrate the RED ZONE stuff into what I have. The offside two on one and stomping and sweeping is the stuff I most easily added into my already existing mix
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818278]Actually, the more common thing to get is an overwrap. From there you can switch to a kimura or two-on-one and then switch to blade control.
The conondrum is that getting wrist control, which is the set up for the disarm, is very hard to do from an attack, while getting the overwrap isn’t that hard. However, switching from the overwrap, which is a very good neutralizing position, to the more effective disarm positions of the two-on-one or Kimura is problematic.[/QUOTE]
That makes more sense!
We have a common defense that involves a two-on-one grab with what you call a kimura (behind the back, over the shoulder…one or the other), and from there palming the non-sharp side and removing it.
Dealing with the knife is the first and foremost thing. If you don’t have control of the knife, chokes and things like that is a bad idea.
Knife counters in which you proactively grab the blade have been used in Europe for hundreds on hundreds of years. Take a look at some of the 14th to 17th century renaissance combative manuels and you will see this tactic practiced over and over again.
Heck, I think you may even see it in even early medieval woodcut’s.
Material like the Redzone and S.T.A.B are excellent and viable knife defense systems for the everyday person who wants a stress based reaction, non-laarping approach to work with.
Based on securing the arm, instinctual oh **** responses off of a default position, they give a nice tactile index point from which to orient yourself in ECQ knife situations.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818215]Do a little research on people who have actually done disarms against real life attacks and you will find that most of the time it was done with this method.
If you think about it it makes complete sense. During a knife attack you are almost always going to get cut anyway, often in the hands and arms anyway as part of trying to fend of the blade (studies have shown that most knife killings involve multiple stab wounds to the hands and arms that happen during natural defensive movements). If you are going to get cut, why not be proactive and have it happen in a place (your hands) that is going to do relatively little damage compared to other parts of your body, while giving you the ablity to control the blade and keep from taking damage to more vital areas, such as your neck, eyes and torso.
Not to mention the fact that it is also possible to gain control the blade by grabbing it without getting cut at all.[/QUOTE]
the scary thing is you make allot of sense. I would personally rather my hand than any other part of my body get cut. ( I have had my hands cut a few times and my back ect.. ). I personally don’t like the idea of getting cut.. or fighting some with a knife but if you must I could see how that would make sense.
I am not really sure, their were many types of daggers and dirks at that time, and yes I would assume a number of these are the standard style based on the thrust with solid blunt steel near the hilts.
Ancient european hand to hand combatives was very advanced and based on its practical sportive principles for the most part. If it did not work it never made it into one of the codex’s which was honestly taken from the real battlefield.
Here is an example of what is called arm-wringing. It is where one would use the hilt of your own knife to grapple in EQC.
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;818206]Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.
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Are you F’n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!![/QUOTE]
No, he’s spot on. Just goes to show, RD, that you know very little if anything about fighting against a knife. I suppose you’d just crescent kick it out of the guys hand, right?
Just poking fun at you, but you should really inquire about something that you are not experienced in, instead of makeing foolish statements. Talk to guys who know about knife fighting. They’ll also tell you - ‘expect to get cut in every knife encounter.’
Grabbing the blade is an effective strategy, you just aren’t aware of the real perils of a knife attack and when it’s in your best interest to grab the blade.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;818327]Knife counters in which you proactively grab the blade have been used in Europe for hundreds on hundreds of years. Take a look at some of the 14th to 17th century renaissance combative manuels and you will see this tactic practiced over and over again.[/QUOTE]
one thing to consider about this is that in a planned duel I’d warrant that there was a pretty high chance that leather gloves were worn, and even in unexpected encounters there was a good chance they would be worn as well if someone was an experienced swordsman…in fact, I wonder how much of the knife stuff was predicated on the assumption that a good leather jerkin was being worn as well…
I prefer to catch the blade between two fingers, bend it in half, and then mock the assailant.
When there’s mutiple opponents and knives, I crescent kick them all out of their hands, swing low, pick them up in mid air, and in the same turn throw them back at the assailants…
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;818494]one thing to consider about this is that in a planned duel I’d warrant that there was a pretty high chance that leather gloves were worn, and even in unexpected encounters there was a good chance they would be worn as well if someone was an experienced swordsman…in fact, I wonder how much of the knife stuff was predicated on the assumption that a good leather jerkin was being worn as well…
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;818206]Some of the most effective methods of disarms involve grabbing the blade of the knife.
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Are you F’n insane? Grab the BLADE?? My God!! MMA has just hit a new delusional low!![/QUOTE]Hmmm, who to believe…? The Dog Brother, or the video student of a maybe thousand year old kung fu style untested since maybe the boxer rebellion…? Toughie.
KF, I think I know but what’s an overwrap? A vid would be helpful if you have one to hand…
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;818671]Hmmm, who to believe…? The Dog Brother, or the video student of a maybe thousand year old kung fu style untested since maybe the boxer rebellion…? Toughie.
KF, I think I know but what’s an overwrap? A vid would be helpful if you have one to hand…[/QUOTE]
You see overwraps in MMA all the time when one guy gets the underhooks and the other guy over wraps the arms- kind of like a wh!zzer from the front.
Underhooks are great for non-weapons fighting, but pretty much the opposite of what should happen if a weapon is involved. With weapons, overhooks are the preferred choice. In the clip below, the knife guy gets the overhook (at 1:36 with his left arm) and uses it to control the opponent and finish with cuts. The defender should have done his own overhook on the knife hand, which would have neutralized the blade.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;818676]You see overwraps in MMA all the time when one guy gets the underhooks and the other guy over wraps the arms- kind of like a wh!zzer from the front.
Underhooks are great for non-weapons fighting, but pretty much the opposite of what should happen if a weapon is involved. With weapons, overhooks are the preferred choice. In the clip below, the knife guy gets the overhook (at 1:36 with his left arm) and uses it to control the opponent and finish with cuts. The defender should have done his own overhook on the knife hand, which would have neutralized the blade.
One of the bets clips on the net.
If you pay attention, serious attention, to what is being said and done, you will get a better understanding of what it is to deal with a knife in those 6 minutes than most people have in all their years of “knife defenses”.
