nospam
nasty 
" i know give me your sifu’s name and i will ask in the correct manner "
I remember someone ask for the name of bean curd and he never answer. You are so anonymous as Jox
Thanks Bean Curd, you and Joseph actually have helped make this clearer for me. Let me see if I can paraphrase/summarize, and please correct me if I am wrong:
I think one of the core ideas behind the source of this conflict is the birth & death of Jeurng Yim. It seems that the course of what one believes of the historical developments in CLF is dependent on his birth.
-
So, what the Chan Family believes is based on official records kept by the government.
-
What the Hung Sing/Buk Sing Families believes is different from that b/c they do not trust the government records, based on the unreliability of it in the past (and present).
If I am correct in this, then to me, it is very clear that this is a stalemate:
I don’t think that the Chan Family has much hope in convincing the Hung/Buk Sing Families to believe the government records.
And likewise, I don’t think the Hung/Buk Sing Families have much hope in convincing the Chan Family to not believe the government records.
If my analysis is correct, then I have to say that bean curd’s advice is best, which is to believe what is passed down to you.
However, I also agree with Joseph about wanting to know the all the facts. I interpret this as: you should know what the other Families believe, and understand where they are coming from in a very complete way. You don’t have to agree with it, but at least respect it.
But, I don’t know nearly as much as the two of you, and I am probably simplifying something that is far more complicated. Like I said, please correct me where I am wrong or incomplete.
Thanks for reading,
123
Hi bean curd,
Sorry about the cut and paste answers, it is quicker this way.
¡§jox ( i like that, easier to write ) your mincing words - again, i get more dizzy on your writting than i do on roundabout, but then roundabout makes more sense.¡¨
Hmm, I can see your writing is short and precise and to the point! Thanks for the double twist starter and Jox is a good butterfly stab as well. 10 out of 10, B/C.
¡¨your writing to 123 - first para - says as you have indicated, yet first sentance of second para - tells where your intention lay - maybe you need to read it again!!¡¨
I have re-read it again but cannot see your point. Please do tell me what you think my intention was, I got dizzy reading my words and your words at the same time.
¡¨chan heung and jeurng yim had much incommon - their history depends on who you wish to speak too, not who wrote words in a book. when you speak to someone personally the answers to questions come quick plus as you know eyes and actions say more than words spoken or written, so to your question on what i believe and why is very simple - it is within the tradition of my lineage and what has been transmitted to me by my family and sibuks. the writtings of people outside although interesting lay little foundation if we are not aware of the intention behind them.¡¨
So what were the intentions hidden in their history? How do you read them?
¡§to lay foundation on any goverment records or writtings is rather interesting considering the way things have been for many many years, but this is another issue - no !!! and to the county records you also know as well as i, how inacurate let alone untrustworthy they are. why look at these when we have even now still partiarchs we can ask personally on such matters - why go to books that are written by people of questionable understanding !!!¡¨
If government records were not reliable, what would be a reliable source of information in your opinion? What sort of people don¡¦t have questionable understanding? Who are these ¡§patriarchs¡¨ who can speak on these matters, can you name one or two?
¡¨on the buksing CLF see again you say onething now to cover up what you actually wrote, don’t you read what you have written, proof reading is such a good thing on most occasions it takes away the errors, especially if you can write as good as how you can, so clarity is and would be much better on your part than mine.¡¨
If you can tell me what I need to uncover, I will try my best to correct my errors. Can you be more specific? On one hand you said I am a good writer and on the other hand I wrote like a round-about, may be I should be a traffic reporter (just joking)!
¡¨on the quote with jeurng yim and chan heung, this is what i see as a contradiction. there is - as you well know, and for what reason you are not acknowledging these is a mystery to me - is that there has always been within the family ( CLF ) the issue of these two men, yet you immediatle fall on the chan heung foundation, maybe it is you who is concerned about position ??? does it mean that much to you ???¡¨
¡§Know the source of the water when you are drinking from it¡¨ is of a concern to me. It means a lot to me to know who the real founder of CLF was. I am like a son who would like to know his real father. When some else step in without good reasons to say, now I am your new father, I get a little uncomfortable. No one likes to have the foundation shift away from underneath him.
¡¨on the words you said regarding these two men isn’t it a double edge sword, what if it is true that jeurng yim was as it is being said he is - founder of CLF and not chan heung then who is being cut off the tree !! could not the tree be actually hindered in its growth because the vertile ground it is in, is not being given the correct nutrients ( truth ) ???¡¨
So what is this correct nutrient, this truth that we need to give to the tree? Can we do this without changing the foundation and the root? From the available historical information I just cannot see how Jeurng Yim can be the original founder of CLF. I have no doubt he is the founder of the Futsan Hung Sing line just as Tarm Sarm is the founder of the Buk Sing line. Can we not work with this and hold the family together and let the tree thrive? How can we switch the root and the tree trunk without killing the tree and do we have to?
¡¨you are so one sided on your thoughts, you will not look at what is being said, i find it interesting that you question the WHATS of jeurng yim yet what about all the discrepancies about chan heung, if we reflect inwards to our own knowledge and look into the hearts of our own belief - what will we find - is that why you are not doing such athing - only questioning the other side - not a very historical perspective research on your part.¡¨
Again, can you be more specific and tell us what are these discrepancies about Chan Heung that would caused him to be disposed as the founder and be replaced by Jeurng Yim? I ask these questions because I genuinely don¡¦t know, so please tell me. In most discussions there are always two sides, apart from what we believe in there are always the facts and figures and the logic of argument to come to a consensus, I am trying to work on this instead of being subjective and emotional about the whole thing.
¡¨for myself i see two stories, the question is easy yet complex and it is only complex in the personalities of pride and predjudice.¡¨
Can we put aside pride and prejudice and have unity instead of segregation? Pride can be overcome by being humble and prejudice an be overcome by looking at the facts and figures logically.
¡¨can the chan clan have their history, and also the hungsing clan have theirs ?? do they have to agree on who is write and who is wrong ?? is it one thing to say your history but another in so doing - caste dispertion on anothers, and as you know as well as i, this is what the chan clan has been doing for many many year!!!¡¨
I genuinely don¡¦t see how the Chan Clan has been casting dispersions on the Jeurng Yim Hung Sing people in the past and present. With all Dave Lacey¡¦s attack on Chen Yong Fa, I have yet to see one reply from their side. What I can read in written words I can not find any examples either, so can you give me some specific examples of their wrong doing? From Dave Lacey’s writing I have a feeling that he really dislikes Chen Yong Fa and the Chen family, I hope it is not true, I thought they were friends from way back in Australia.
¡¨you also ask me what my believe is and how i have come to this conclusion and to enlighten you hahaha, how unfortunaite for you, and sad of me that i can not do this, you are your own man and you have your on teachings/traditions and also sifu, and as you know how can i seek the study for another without first asking the sifu, i know give me your sifu’s name and i will ask in the correct manner¡¨
My Sifu was my father and he has passed away so you can ask me, tell me and enlighten me any time you like. I am my own man.
¡¨we are all bystanders in such matters and although it is good to debate such things, unfortunaitly you have been less than forthcoming in your character and face ( you know what i mean eh ). i know my history, but i also know that of others, who am i to tell others to not say and believe in what they do - again who are the chan clan to do this also !!! and even worse not in face but in writtings - how weak is this ???¡¨
No, I don¡¦t know what you mean by ¡§less than forthcoming in your character and face¡¨. Have you met all the faces that wrote on this forum? Do their words mean less to you because you don¡¦t know them? I don¡¦t know who you are, your profile says nothing about yourself but I don¡¦t care, your words are as good as your face to me. Matter of fact I think we can know more about a person from their words than from their face, looks can deceive as they say.
¡¨to finish till next time - if you say we are crossing swords, i have changed mine to butterfly’s - it is more southern and more akin to my liking.¡¨
Then I have to get closer to you and smell your breath and feel your heart beat (figuratively speaking of course), will this be more to your liking? I guess the bottom line is I won¡¦t get an answer from you regarding details of Jeurng Yim¡¦s birth and death. I am not hopeful I will get some straight answers from you this time either, but at least I tried to have a decent conversation with you and I hope I have not add feul to the fire unnecessarily. No hard feelings.
Peace, my brother.
JoX
can the chan clan have their history, and also the hungsing clan have theirs ?? do they have to agree on who is write and who is wrong ?? is it one thing to say your history but another in so doing - caste dispertion on anothers, and as you know as well as i, this is what the chan clan has been doing for many many year!!!
From what I can see, the Chan Clan have never said a cross word to anyone. There have been a lot of hotheads on here, but no one has ever said anything officially from the Chan Clan. This was all started when Frank McCarthy came out guns blazing, shouting down everyone (including the Chan’s) and claiming to have the ultimate truth that would shake the CLF world. He was rude and offensive, Lacey has been rude and offensive, and these people are speaking officially for their families/lines. The Chan Clan has never said anything. It seems they are happy with their history, happy to let others believe theirs and happy to stay out of petty squabblings on the internet.
Food for though, isn’t it?
Re: iron silk
Originally posted by k-no
[B]hey iron_silk,
Every response I have placed here on the forum have been discussed with Sifu Lacey first and approved before making it to this public forum. However, he did tell me to control my anger enough to curb my language. =)
k [/B]
Hi k-no,
Now I know why sometimes I don’t get an answer from you straight away but much later you come out of the blue and blasting away at me with colourful language, you are in fact getting permission from your Sifu. You are a good boy, k-no, Sifu Lacey has taught you well. No hard feelings from my part for I can be a “jox” sometimes. =) Have you got a new job yet?
Cheers,
JoX 
jox - ( i do like that ) good talking to you again. i am not sure how we can keep this going, not that i do not wish to, but if i know paste to what you paste to me, then you paste your reply, we will write gone with the wind part 3 hahaha, so i will keep my answers to the points i wish to focus on, hope you don’t mind.
your writting to 123, i can understand how you get dizzy reading your words and mine together- not a good thing eh, but if you want the point to stay mute, then who am i to challenge, i see no need to discuss further, but it is there for others to see.
to what i look at as reliable,is no different to what you regard as reliable i have explained this already i don’t understand why you want to drag it out, and as to partiarch(s) - come now lets not go fishing !! i prefer chess.
the buk sing is mute also, we know what you where saying if you don’t want to be more open with it and leave it in the shadows i will leave it there with you, it was your words not mine that was dispariging and they are not mine therefore to bring into light - you do like fishing don’t you.
as to being a son and someone else coming in to tell you there your father, what about those who find out that they where actually adopted and their real father isn’t being given the honour of position they deserve !! i am like you, what is the truth what is questionable - yet i see just as many concerns in chan heungs history as i do in jeurng yims - yet why lay claim to one without acknowledging the other.
as i see it, it is not the case of the hung sing clan not paying homage to hung sing and not chan heung - they king lai to both - which is only natural, there is no disrespect at all from the hung sing on this. are they saying they do not wish to believe that chan heung is part of CLF - then show where they are saying this, it is you who are saying that chan heung is being put to the way side, i have not seen evidence of this in any hung sing thoughts/actions/deeds, only that they wish clarification to correct edicate for jeurng yim, and that what has been known in mainland is now coming forth into the western world, which has been long overdue.
on the nutrient of truth, now what you have written here is most interesting , are you now saying that the two brothers didn’t open the school in futshan and it was first opened by jeurng yim, for you have stated that you agree jeurng yim opened the school and is the founder of CLF in futshan line , but this is not what the chan clan have said, never have they said this not even chan yiu chi has said what you have now stated , they all say it was the two brothers and jeurng yim came later and re-opened and therefore jeurng yim can not lay claim as you have stated.
on all your concerns and points on unision within the family, it is clear you have the same wish as i, yet how long do the hung sing clan have to " bow the head " and wait for the chan clan to do the " correct thing" , why is the hand of the card from the chan clan showing the writting down to the ground and not up ?? where is the gesture of family and comminality in such actions??
what can i say on your comment that you don’t see where the chan clan have laid dispersions on jeurng yim, what a sad statement to come from someone who speaks so often on such matters yet doesn’t see the forrest because of the trees ?? i have to say this is most unbelievable on your part to come out with such a comment - but i will wait for your response in asking me to show you where you have fallen short in this matter.
it is clear you do not know the relaitionship between yong fa and david, if you did then there would have been no need to say what you did, or as usual is this again one of your silly ways to show how david is in the wrong and yong fa is the incent - poor effort on your part againn - they have great respect for each other and on their meetings it was most apparent that they have not only respect for each other but a friendship. the skills not only of both men yet that of their respective students is seen in how not only in the way they carried each other yet how they supported each other. so just because there is question on historical accuracy does not lay want to loss of friendship or brotherhood . maybe you should go to australia and see for yourself it is a nice country with good people and a great relaxing attmosphere.
as to your concerns on pride and predjudice it is clear on this we agree, yet i am not as closed minded as you on the subject i know what my history is and i know of others history, if it is found that one is correct and the other is not,then it is clear that actions must be taken to rectify our believes, this is what i have seen in all the writtings of the hung sing clan, so why is it that no one wishes to take this in the traditional manner that it should be done - where is the talk and show of documentation from all parties. there is much more information that is not being given out as it is within the requests of seniors and elders, these are things for open face to face discussions, so why is it not happening. to say the chan clan do not need to do such athing and meet the hung sing people is not only against the commonality of the CLF family but is most unusual in its actions, why in the past did these things happen and now the chan people do not wish to do so- how strange - to also say that since on family does not speak there for they are comfortable with their history is not correct and certainly not in this situation since past actions have clearly show, it is only now things are going the way they are. with davids attack ( as you call it jox ) i would say address - is it not the head of one family we address thing to, so for david to address yong fa is well within the traditions of respect and requirment, it is not personal but is he not the HEAD OF THE CHAN CLAN and as such is it therefore not correct to address all concernt to him- if not WHO ??
it is good to see you are your own man and i am saddened by your loss, it maybe sometime ago (?) however it never goes away, the same is true from my own experaince also.
it is disappionting you feel i am negating your questions - strange i feel exactly the same from you. on jeurng yims birth and death as i told you it is what i believe, now is it correct - well at this point it appears it might be but then again might not ooppps did i do it again - sorry, but that is the issue jox is it not, too find out the truth?? i am open, if he was born in the early 1800’s or mid 1800’s we need to find out, yet not just from goverment books/records - and again i come back to the accuracy not only of the books but of how the villages/counties especially in those times where extremely unreliable and how one can use these as a foundation wether they are in agreement with my beliefs or yours is not an issue. you wash away in the childrens water the accuracy of the futshan CLF who say completly different to what the goverments/county books say, yet wasn’t it there that hung sing started, so why would the current dates being used from records of the old school be of less value than that of the ones you wish to use. many 2nd generation players from hung sing lineage have always held these dates to be accurate, yet you wash them away without care.
on the chan heung issues - my where would you like to being, his early trainings, maybe his age when he assisted in his uncles school , what about when he fought in the army of even when he went over seas or maybe you could tell me where that tigers skin is - it appears to have been misplaced and actuall when did that happen again.
when you do reply to some of these questions which yes i must agree came of the top of my head, can you also give me your referances, so i don’t get confused with which chan player you are using because even they don’t have the same dates/time or even events - so it would help me greatly
with tasting my breath it is ok , i have not had garlic and at least my heart is beating lol
take care till next time
serpent
you say you have not seen the chan clan say a cross word to anyone - when - what decade and in referance to what ?? we are, well i am, not talking of what is happenig now but what has been going on for many decades a situation like this does not spring up suddenly even if jox tries to make out it has - he knows more than he wishes to let on - sounds like someone else i know
take care also
Part I
Hi bean curd,
Good to talk to you so soon. Since you have taken liberty with my name, I hope you know what connotation ¡§bean curd¡¨ has to the native Chinese they would roll on the floor with laughter when they hear that is your chosen name!
As usual, I get dizzy reading your long sentences all jumbled up, somehow you managed to answer none of my questions in a meaningful way with as many words as possible, it is a feat I cannot match nor do I wish to. Life is too short.
Not only you are good at saying nothing, you are also good at putting words into my mouth, so I have to tackle your paragraphs one by one again, hope you don¡¦t mind. It is so tedious I have to do it in 2 parts.!
¡§your writting to 123, i can understand how you get dizzy reading your words and mine together- not a good thing eh, but if you want the point to stay mute, then who am i to challenge, i see no need to discuss further, but it is there for others to see.¡¨
First of many non-answers to come.
¡¨to what i look at as reliable,is no different to what you regard as reliable i have explained this already i don’t understand why you want to drag it out, and as to partiarch(s) - come now lets not go fishing !! i prefer chess.¡¨
So you have no criteria for reliability and you just made up these ¡§partiarh(s)¡¨. (do you have spell-check on your computer?)
¡¨the buk sing is mute also, we know what you where saying if you don’t want to be more open with it and leave it in the shadows i will leave it there with you, it was your words not mine that was dispariging and they are not mine therefore to bring into light - you do like fishing don’t you.¡¨
So you call it ¡§go fishing¡¨ when you don’t have or want to give an answer to my questions. You are the one who is doing the fishing here, not me.
¡¨as to being a son and someone else coming in to tell you there your father, what about those who find out that they where actually adopted and their real father isn’t being given the honour of position they deserve !! i am like you, what is the truth what is questionable - yet i see just as many concerns in chan heungs history as i do in jeurng yims - yet why lay claim to one without acknowledging the other.¡¨
Again, you have managed to slip away from what are the real ¡§concerns¡¨; it is the fourth non-answers in four paragraphs, well done. 10 out of 10 so far.
¡¨as i see it, it is not the case of the hung sing clan not paying homage to hung sing and not chan heung - they king lai to both - which is only natural, there is no disrespect at all from the hung sing on this. are they saying they do not wish to believe that chan heung is part of CLF - then show where they are saying this, it is you who are saying that chan heung is being put to the way side, i have not seen evidence of this in any hung sing thoughts/actions/deeds, only that they wish clarification to correct edicate for jeurng yim, and that what has been known in mainland is now coming forth into the western world, which has been long overdue.¡¨
Imagine you are sitting on your chair and your son pushes you off your chair and sits down himself, of course you are still part of the family but you are no longer sitting in your rightful place. How would you feel?
¡¨on the nutrient of truth, now what you have written here is most interesting , are you now saying that the two brothers didn’t open the school in futshan and it was first opened by jeurng yim, for you have stated that you agree jeurng yim opened the school and is the founder of CLF in futshan line , but this is not what the chan clan have said, never have they said this not even chan yiu chi has said what you have now stated , they all say it was the two brothers and jeurng yim came later and re-opened and therefore jeurng yim can not lay claim as you have stated.¡¨
Don¡¦t put words in my mouth, where did I say the two Chan brothers didn¡¦t open the Futsan School before Jeurng Yim? I said in 1839, Jeurng Yim was only 15; he could not have opened the Futsan school then.
¡¨on all your concerns and points on unision within the family, it is clear you have the same wish as i, yet how long do the hung sing clan have to " bow the head " and wait for the chan clan to do the " correct thing" , why is the hand of the card from the chan clan showing the writting down to the ground and not up ?? where is the gesture of family and comminality in such actions??¡¨
Can you be more specific here? What exactly do you mean by the sentence, ¡§how long do the hung sing clan have to " bow the head " and wait for the chan clan to do the " correct thing?" Are you implying that the Hung Sing clan is bowing their heads to the Chan clan at the moment and have been doing so for the last 150 years? Are you not grossly insulting the Hung Sing people with your remark? I think Hung Sing and the Chan Clan are much better than that.
¡¨what can i say on your comment that you don’t see where the chan clan have laid dispersions on jeurng yim, what a sad statement to come from someone who speaks so often on such matters yet doesn’t see the forrest because of the trees ?? i have to say this is most unbelievable on your part to come out with such a comment - but i will wait for your response in asking me to show you where you have fallen short in this matter.¡¨
Again, another non-answer when it comes to specific details. You are long at making accusation but short at delivering the evidence.
¡¨it is clear you do not know the relaitionship between yong fa and david, if you did then there would have been no need to say what you did, or as usual is this again one of your silly ways to show how david is in the wrong and yong fa is the incent - poor effort on your part againn - they have great respect for each other and on their meetings it was most apparent that they have not only respect for each other but a friendship. the skills not only of both men yet that of their respective students is seen in how not only in the way they carried each other yet how they supported each other. so just because there is question on historical accuracy does not lay want to loss of friendship or brotherhood . maybe you should go to australia and see for yourself it is a nice country with good people and a great relaxing attmosphere.¡¨
Yes, some people are good at stabbing their friends and still managed to smile. Fortunately most of them have already left Australia and that is why it is a nice country with good people and a great relaxing atmosphere.
¡¨as to your concerns on pride and predjudice it is clear on this we agree, yet i am not as closed minded as you on the subject i know what my history is and i know of others history, if it is found that one is correct and the other is not,then it is clear that actions must be taken to rectify our believes, this is what i have seen in all the writtings of the hung sing clan, so why is it that no one wishes to take this in the traditional manner that it should be done - where is the talk and show of documentation from all parties. there is much more information that is not being given out as it is within the requests of seniors and elders, these are things for open face to face discussions, so why is it not happening. to say the chan clan do not need to do such athing and meet the hung sing people is not only against the commonality of the CLF family but is most unusual in its actions, why in the past did these things happen and now the chan people do not wish to do so- how strange - to also say that since on family does not speak there for they are comfortable with their history is not correct and certainly not in this situation since past actions have clearly show, it is only now things are going the way they are. with davids attack ( as you call it jox ) i would say address - is it not the head of one family we address thing to, so for david to address yong fa is well within the traditions of respect and requirment, it is not personal but is he not the HEAD OF THE CHAN CLAN and as such is it therefore not correct to address all concernt to him- if not WHO ??¡¨
The only problem is Sifu Dave Lacey do not qualify to head the Hung Sing clan, what authority has he got to negotiate with Chen Yong Fa on matter of such importance? If the elders of the clan wished to speak to Chen Yong Fa, they would have already done so a long time ago. It is not up to the ¡§General¡¨ to call the shots, your extreme naivety surprises me sometimes bean curd (I like this name it suits you down to the shaft, I mean ground).
Part II to continue
Part I
Hi bean curd,
Good to talk to you so soon. Since you have taken liberty with my name, I hope you know what connotation ¡§bean curd¡¨ has to the native Chinese they would roll on the floor with laughter when they hear that is your chosen name!
As usual, I get dizzy reading your long sentences all jumbled up, somehow you managed to answer none of my questions in a meaningful way with as many words as possible, it is a feat I cannot match nor do I wish to. Life is too short.
Not only you are good at saying nothing, you are also good at putting words into my mouth, so I have to tackle your paragraphs one by one again, it is so long and tedious I have to do it in 2 parts!
¡§your writting to 123, i can understand how you get dizzy reading your words and mine together- not a good thing eh, but if you want the point to stay mute, then who am i to challenge, i see no need to discuss further, but it is there for others to see.¡¨
First of many non-answers to come.
¡¨to what i look at as reliable,is no different to what you regard as reliable i have explained this already i don’t understand why you want to drag it out, and as to partiarch(s) - come now lets not go fishing !! i prefer chess.¡¨
So you have no criteria for reliability and you just made up these ¡§partiarh(s)¡¨. (do you have spell-check on your computer?)
¡¨the buk sing is mute also, we know what you where saying if you don’t want to be more open with it and leave it in the shadows i will leave it there with you, it was your words not mine that was dispariging and they are not mine therefore to bring into light - you do like fishing don’t you.¡¨
So you call it ¡§go fishing¡¨ when you don’t have or want to give an answer to my questions. You are the one who is doing the fishing here, not me.
¡¨as to being a son and someone else coming in to tell you there your father, what about those who find out that they where actually adopted and their real father isn’t being given the honour of position they deserve !! i am like you, what is the truth what is questionable - yet i see just as many concerns in chan heungs history as i do in jeurng yims - yet why lay claim to one without acknowledging the other.¡¨
Again, you have managed to slip away from what are the real ¡§concerns¡¨; it is the fourth non-answers in four paragraphs, well done. 10 out of 10 so far.
¡¨as i see it, it is not the case of the hung sing clan not paying homage to hung sing and not chan heung - they king lai to both - which is only natural, there is no disrespect at all from the hung sing on this. are they saying they do not wish to believe that chan heung is part of CLF - then show where they are saying this, it is you who are saying that chan heung is being put to the way side, i have not seen evidence of this in any hung sing thoughts/actions/deeds, only that they wish clarification to correct edicate for jeurng yim, and that what has been known in mainland is now coming forth into the western world, which has been long overdue.¡¨
Imagine you are sitting on your chair and your son pushes you off your chair and sits down himself, of course you are still part of the family but you are no longer sitting in your rightful place. How would you feel?
¡¨on the nutrient of truth, now what you have written here is most interesting , are you now saying that the two brothers didn’t open the school in futshan and it was first opened by jeurng yim, for you have stated that you agree jeurng yim opened the school and is the founder of CLF in futshan line , but this is not what the chan clan have said, never have they said this not even chan yiu chi has said what you have now stated , they all say it was the two brothers and jeurng yim came later and re-opened and therefore jeurng yim can not lay claim as you have stated.¡¨
Don¡¦t put words in my mouth, where did I say the two Chan brothers didn¡¦t open the Futsan School before Jeurng Yim? I said in 1839, Jeurng Yim was only 15; he could not have opened the Futsan school then.
¡¨on all your concerns and points on unision within the family, it is clear you have the same wish as i, yet how long do the hung sing clan have to " bow the head " and wait for the chan clan to do the " correct thing" , why is the hand of the card from the chan clan showing the writting down to the ground and not up ?? where is the gesture of family and comminality in such actions??¡¨
Can you be more specific here? What exactly do you mean by the sentence, ¡§how long do the hung sing clan have to " bow the head " and wait for the chan clan to do the " correct thing?" Are you implying that the Hung Sing clan is bowing their heads to the Chan clan at the moment and have been doing so for the last 150 years? Are you not grossly insulting the Hung Sing people with your remark? I think Hung Sing and the Chan Clan are much better than that.
¡¨what can i say on your comment that you don’t see where the chan clan have laid dispersions on jeurng yim, what a sad statement to come from someone who speaks so often on such matters yet doesn’t see the forrest because of the trees ?? i have to say this is most unbelievable on your part to come out with such a comment - but i will wait for your response in asking me to show you where you have fallen short in this matter.¡¨
Again, another non-answer when it comes to specific details. You are long at making accusation but short at delivering the evidence.
¡¨it is clear you do not know the relaitionship between yong fa and david, if you did then there would have been no need to say what you did, or as usual is this again one of your silly ways to show how david is in the wrong and yong fa is the incent - poor effort on your part againn - they have great respect for each other and on their meetings it was most apparent that they have not only respect for each other but a friendship. the skills not only of both men yet that of their respective students is seen in how not only in the way they carried each other yet how they supported each other. so just because there is question on historical accuracy does not lay want to loss of friendship or brotherhood . maybe you should go to australia and see for yourself it is a nice country with good people and a great relaxing attmosphere.¡¨
Yes, some people are good at stabbing their friends and still managed to smile. Fortunately most of them have already left Australia and that is why it is a nice country with good people and a great relaxing atmosphere.
¡¨as to your concerns on pride and predjudice it is clear on this we agree, yet i am not as closed minded as you on the subject i know what my history is and i know of others history, if it is found that one is correct and the other is not,then it is clear that actions must be taken to rectify our believes, this is what i have seen in all the writtings of the hung sing clan, so why is it that no one wishes to take this in the traditional manner that it should be done - where is the talk and show of documentation from all parties. there is much more information that is not being given out as it is within the requests of seniors and elders, these are things for open face to face discussions, so why is it not happening. to say the chan clan do not need to do such athing and meet the hung sing people is not only against the commonality of the CLF family but is most unusual in its actions, why in the past did these things happen and now the chan people do not wish to do so- how strange - to also say that since on family does not speak there for they are comfortable with their history is not correct and certainly not in this situation since past actions have clearly show, it is only now things are going the way they are. with davids attack ( as you call it jox ) i would say address - is it not the head of one family we address thing to, so for david to address yong fa is well within the traditions of respect and requirment, it is not personal but is he not the HEAD OF THE CHAN CLAN and as such is it therefore not correct to address all concernt to him- if not WHO ??¡¨
The only problem is Sifu Dave Lacey do not qualify to head the Hung Sing clan, what authority has he got to negotiate with Chen Yong Fa on matter of such importance? If the elders of the clan wished to speak to Chen Yong Fa, they would have already done so a long time ago. It is not up to the ¡§General¡¨ to call the shots, your extreme naivety surprises me sometimes bean curd (I like this name it suits you down to the shaft, I mean ground).
Part II to continue
Part II
The continue story of a pair of jox holding a bean curd:
¡¨it is good to see you are your own man and i am saddened by your loss, it maybe sometime ago (?) however it never goes away, the same is true from my own experaince also.¡¨
This is the most sensible paragraph of the whole posting, I wish there are more of them.
¡¨it is disappionting you feel i am negating your questions - strange i feel exactly the same from you. on jeurng yims birth and death as i told you it is what i believe, now is it correct - well at this point it appears it might be but then again might not ooppps did i do it again - sorry, but that is the issue jox is it not, too find out the truth?? i am open, if he was born in the early 1800’s or mid 1800’s we need to find out, yet not just from goverment books/records - and again i come back to the accuracy not only of the books but of how the villages/counties especially in those times where extremely unreliable and how one can use these as a foundation wether they are in agreement with my beliefs or yours is not an issue. you wash away in the childrens water the accuracy of the futshan CLF who say completly different to what the goverments/county books say, yet wasn’t it there that hung sing started, so why would the current dates being used from records of the old school be of less value than that of the ones you wish to use. many 2nd generation players from hung sing lineage have always held these dates to be accurate, yet you wash them away without care.¡¨
I am not washing away without care, in fact I am asking you, ¡§what are the dates recorded in the old school?¡¨ Let us see the old records, the older the better. I am disappointed at you playing these silly games of hide and seek which you called fishing. Show foundation and come clean!
¡¨on the chan heung issues - my where would you like to being, his early trainings, maybe his age when he assisted in his uncles school , what about when he fought in the army of even when he went over seas or maybe you could tell me where that tigers skin is - it appears to have been misplaced and actuall when did that happen again.¡¨
I have personally spoken to an old man in King Mui village who has sat on the tiger skin, you can still find him and many older clansmen who have seen it if you go there. The skin disappeared during the Cultural Revolution when there is a lack of security in the village. As for Chan Heung help teaching in his uncle¡¦s school when he was 12, what is so unusual about that? Is this all it takes to disqualify the Chan Family document as a fake? Have you or Sifu Dave Lacey seen and studied the documents first hand? Why don¡¦t you ask someone who has before making a premature judgement about their authorship? Better still, if you say Sifu Dave Lacey and Chen Yong Fa are still good friend, they can contact each other and compare notes. Isn¡¦t this a more ethical way of doing thing before going public?
¡§when you do reply to some of these questions which yes i must agree came of the top of my head, can you also give me your referances, so i don’t get confused with which chan player you are using because even they don’t have the same dates/time or even events - so it would help me greatly¡¨
I have no idea what you are talking about here, so I will let this one pass.
¡¨with tasting my breath it is ok , i have not had garlic and at least my heart is beating lol¡¨
Do you want me to taste your breath? Is this what you are saying? What a queer thing to ask! I am afraid I am not your type =). But it is nice to know that your heart is still beating, please continue.
You know I can¡¦t wait until the next installment of verbal diarrhea between us, are you sure you can keep it up bean curd? Nudge Nudge Wink Wink!
Cheers and take care of yourself,
JosephX
jox
well what can i say 2 parts, i am honoured, alas i cannot give you the same back.
i will address on part of your post(s) that i am sure will suffice for those who have been reading out little muse, but i have to say the only change that i would have needed to do, is to change the opening of bean curd to jox and that would have been more than enough, just look in the mirror jox, you are no different, well you are acutally worse but hi who am i to judge.
now lets review
ok i will now address you jox and we will see the character you really are and how you want to decieve with mixed words to clarfiy your own ego.
you have said i do not speak with clarity, we will also see how you do not either, yet use words to imply your vertue as a scholar of knowledge.
jox says -
" Good to talk to you so soon. Since you have taken liberty with my name, I hope you know what connotation ¡§bean curd¡¨ has to the native Chinese they would roll on the floor with laughter when they hear that is your chosen name!"
and now the breakdown.
-
" Good to talk to you so soon " - it is also good to hear from you, but i have to say, why so much !!
-
" Since you have taken liberty with my name " - no this i do not understand. it is clear you have taken offence to my using this as further on you show your true colours, but it was actually you who used it first - joX. now i admit i do not use upper case on the " x" but it is clearly you who use the “jox”. so why are you saying and implying i am taking liberties. first off if i am correct ( and i am sure you will correct me ) your use to use xtrajoseph, now you use jox. i only used it since you used it first and used it as a signature. i had no intent whatsoever to use it other than that, it was quicker to write jox than extrajoseph or xtrajoseph.
i looked at it as this jo = joseph, and x = extra, it is you with your sad remark towards jox and bean curd in them, that has diminished your signature, you have scorned yourself and now you have brought that scorn on me for using it in the fashion i have - this is typical of how you have conducted yourself through many writtings.
- " I hope you know what connotation ¡§bean curd¡¨ has to the native Chinese they would roll on the floor with laughter when they hear that is your chosen name!
- and now we see your true character even more. it is clear you have know idea of the spoken word or the written word in relation to marital arts, it is more than obvious you have not heard the words mentioned within gung fu of people being called " beancurd sifu " or for that matter " gungee sifu ".
you show a pure distaste and dishonour many by your sad, childish remark to my callsign and disparige it further by trying to make out it is not of good standing in the chinese community as an item of worth or a word used to distinguish honour of many great players in the past.
i wonder if wong fei hung shared your expression of using the word, and it is actually from his expericance and his words that i took the name, so now you laugh at me do you also laugh at wong fei hung. do you actually know how important beancurd is to the chinese community, and how it is just as prevelent in daily life as rice is, you are showing your true colours just in this paragraph jox or is joX better !!!
how is it that for example " mouldy beancurd " was a favourite of not only the emporers but also for the local community who devised more than a 50 ways to make it, with great skill and foresight. why do you mock that history, no i can see how you can, you are doing it now with CLF history so nothing is sacred to you - is it jox (joX).
beancurd has found so much favour in the chinese community that it is regarded as an equivelent to peking duck ( or are you know going to slander that also ).
and now you wonder why i am elusive with my replies how can i educate you when you are so blatant in your understanding and in your writtings.
so when i said you are fishing it is purley academic - you elude to one thing and then run from it, because you want to say " show me where i have said this" you are no diffferent to one who takes up a posture and then when the fist comes, you back down and yell , " hi what are you doing i didn’t want to fight" - such character eh jox ( joX)
so where to we go from here, well let me play your game jox (joX).
you scorn my call sign to show others how i am of no worth, then let us look at your name shall we. i am sure you must have been in HK in the 80’s or maybe your where not, and you don’t know or are unaware to use the name joseph was not a good joice, and why is this, why did people laugh and not want joseph as a name, well let me show you.
joe as you know in cantonese = early and seph = release, so if we put joe + seph togethr we have (joseph ) = early release.
now what does this mean jox ( joX) well you did ask me to educate you so here i am doing so and since you are your own man you can appreciate the learning. early release = pre ejeculation, so joseph i have to say you do live up to your name.
what i find more interesting is you call yourself " extra joseph" so you will now have to educate me, how can you pre - pre ejeculate ??? do find it frustrating for such a thing to happen ??
you see extrajoseph, why should i or anyone take what you say on history with anything more than a grain of salt, and being the devils advocate here, why should anyone take mine also.
words are futile in such matters and i have seen nothing said to either change my opinion and i am sure yours. so how can we do this, easy - let us meet with your documents and i will arrive with mine and we shall see who has more foundation on such matters.
you have said so much yet you have not shown any proof, in your words you say i have said little, yet why do your words show more weight than mine, you have shown no proof only used paper words, so where do we go from here !!
now lets expand this idea and look at it from a CLF perspective. a meeting is the only way with abitrators ( and if you are aware of such matters ) you will know that such things are independently controlled also. so meetings and proof are required not paper tiger words like what you are useing or for that matter anyone else, proor is the key.
well i hope i have written clearer for you, and i have to say, your score on my abilities to write are of no concern to me, since when did we decide we would follow your standards - can you show me, and also here is another show of your great character - you are really a good figure to look up to - i do not write with correct spelling so you attack me for this short fall - shame on you tut tut
one more thing - david does have authority within the buk sing and hung sing clans for what he is dong, so on that point he is within his given standing, you play such games jox (joX) and with little content, you ask for clarification of matters yet when they are given you insult them. another example is of how i showed you clearly the relationship between both men and look how you replied, such a disgrace, so explain to me why i should even share other things with you when you return the knowledge with such destaste and of little consequence.
till next time - wink wink nudge nudge say more lol
hi soft bean curd,
What’s up my friend, nudge nudge wink wink say no more.
It is not writing jox with the lower case x that showed your intention in making fun of my name, it is what you said in brackets that showed your true colour. Two can play the same game, so if you cannot stand the heat then you better not start the fire in the first place.
I think all this is getting boringly personal; can we get back on the real issue of history? You said to serpent the following quote sitting my name:
“you say you have not seen the chan clan say a cross word to anyone - when - what decade and in referance to what ?? we are, well i am, not talking of what is happenig now but what has been going on for many decades a situation like this does not spring up suddenly even if jox tries to make out it has - he knows more than he wishes to let on - sounds like someone else i know”
Now this is another classic example of your accusation without substantiation. You cannot give us one example of the Chan Clan saying a bad word about the Hung Sing people in recent time, so you turned around and say it happened in the past and I would know about it. Well my friend, I have news for you. As far as I know there is not one cross word in public between the two groups either in present time or the past that I am aware of. If you know some historical instance then please showed us some evidence, otherwise you are just trying to stir up hatred between two groups of people again. BTW, do you do CLF?
I have no intention of being personal with you, so stay focus on the issue and not the personality. No hard feelings (sorry about that, I did it again!) my friend.
Peace,
JosephX
Dave Lacey’s authority
Originally posted by bean curd
one more thing - david does have authority within the buk sing and hung sing clans for what he is dong, so on that point he is within his given standing,
Hi bean curd,
If what you said above is true, then show us a written authority of consent from the buk sing and hung sing clans for all the things he has said in public on his webpage. I call your bluff, my friend.
JosephX
joseph your lucky day, i was just checking to make sure i did not write without clarity, although i must say i did find some - sorry - and look what do i find but a little more writting from you, how nice.
see joseph it is clear all you want to do is argue. the reason i wrote in brackets what i did, about your shortening of your name was that i was actually acknowledging your skill in the abbreviation, there was no intent other than that, maybe it is clear, you look at your own soul and see it in others. and as too heat lol, i didn’t realise the fire was on or i was in the kitchen, maybe you need to put some more wood on the fire !!!
i also find it interesting you have not addressed my last post in your usuall fashion - how strange - truth hurt !!!
i also find it interesting you say you do not want to be personal with me yet this is all you have been, the rest has been but a ruse on your part, you now ask for me to keep it on a perspective when it was actually you who wished to go in another direction, by your words, again you are showing you wish to make out i am the one causing the elusiveness not you - or are we both to blame !!!
i find it most enjoyable that you ask for proof, where is yours !!, what an old man tells you this about the tiger skin, now i have heard Mao used for other atrocities but now also this, so if it is true, there are so many questions i could ask on this matter but why bother your reply on that subject said more than enough, and isn’t this what it is all about, what if i say this and that - don’t you get the point to the whole conversation, i thought you wanted to be educated, yet when i try to, you don’t or won’t listen, if you want proof it is so easy, we meet, we show our documents and then the outcome is made, so easy yet all you want to do is banter here and not in person, what fruit comes from such folly .
please look at my previous post and read it "s l o w l y " and then you will see that this is all that is requiered, by you keeping this facade up just shows your dark intentions.
you ask me to clarify so much, yet when you write, even when it is elusive, i know what you are saying!! so why do you need me to clarify if you are from the generation you say you are??? you know full well what is between the lines, what is your intention for me to spell it out for you, it is like a proffessor asking another proffessor of the same understanding to go back to basics, for what purpose is this required, when it is clear it is not needed.
you appear not to understand but i do respect you for your generation isn’t it 5th, and it is this fashion that i have written, it is no different in the martial books written in earlier times on CLF,if you know the skills then there is not much need for writting, short poems speak to those who understand, surely i don’t have to educate you on this also !!!
if i say there has been issues before, and you say there hasn’t - then how folly is that, if you are not aware of such things happening ( which i have to say surprises me greatly ) , then what is it worth my saying it has happened and it is even now or will you also deny this !! , once you where told some time back, that a buk sing senior spoke to a chan senior and your come back was that since you had not heard it therefore it must not been true, yet it did happen !!! so let me understand this, if extrajosepsh says it did - then it must have !!!, if extrajoseph says it did not - then it is fantasy !! or at best a lie !!! - hhhmmm good debating skills hahaha.
why do i not use names for this situation above, for respect and i do not wish to use names !!! now if you are aware of the situation then you will know who i am speaking about and then it will clearly show you that i know what i am talking about, in this fashion i do not cause disharmony nor do i bring issue to others and finally it is kept in the family, to clarify further it did not happen at home but away and this is all i will say on this subject, but i am sure you will bring the names out, you appear to do it often, you bring peoples names up to show you know what is going on, who these people are and that you are worthy of people to listen to you, yet isn’t the silence between words have more value !!!
i also find it so incredible you are now trying to say i am putting a wedge between the two clans, you are clearly a hypocrite , what about when much earlier on in this sad affair ( many months ago ) you where the one trying to put a wedge between the hung sing and buk sing clans by your words and intention- what you are so pure - please extrajoseph, again you try to discredit with such words - you truly are getting desperate.
now why do i need to show you an authority for david , all you have to do is actually ring/write/phone the buk sing and hung sing clan elders they will verify for you, that is much more proof than a piece of paper, and don’t you agree much more personal, again extrajoseph it is so easy for you to do, and with your generation you will easily have access to such people.
and a finale note - you ask me if i do CLF, now i will answer, but if i do will you answer my question on why you have asked could it be because i am also known for other skills !!! or do you wish to cross hands!! to your question the answer is YES !! oh by the way do you do CLF ??? i know i have asked a second question but please excuse me for such ignorance
although you say you do not want to go personal you track record shows otherwise, i await your most treasured response
bean curd,
¡§i find it most enjoyable that you ask for proof, where is yours !!, what an old man tells you this about the tiger skin, now i have heard Mao used for other atrocities but now also this, so if it is true, there are so many questions i could ask on this matter but why bother your reply on that subject said more than enough, and isn’t this what it is all about, what if i say this and that - don’t you get the point to the whole conversation, i thought you wanted to be educated, yet when i try to, you don’t or won’t listen, if you want proof it is so easy, we meet, we show our documents and then the outcome is made, so easy yet all you want to do is banter here and not in person, what fruit comes from such folly.¡¨
First let me congratulate you on improving your English and your spelling out of sight, see what little extra effort can do. With regard to the tiger skin, the proof is in the people who saw its existence and I pointed out to you where you can find these people whom I have spoken to, so I don¡¦t know how much more evidence you required. If you have documents, show them here so everyone can see and not just me. What have you got to hide? Showing them to me only will be a useless exercise.
¡§you ask me to clarify so much, yet when you write, even when it is elusive, i know what you are saying!! so why do you need me to clarify if you are from the generation you say you are??? you know full well what is between the lines, what is your intention for me to spell it out for you, it is like a proffessor asking another proffessor of the same understanding to go back to basics, for what purpose is this required, when it is clear it is not needed.¡¨
I have spell out my intention many times, there is no need to read between the lines. Let me say it again: There is only ONE Choy Lay Fut, let us accept Chan Heung as the founder and Jeurng Yim founded the Futsan Hung Sing branch and get on with our unity for the next millennium. Stop this drive for segregation and stop this spread of hatred for each other. We have much to gain by working together, not against each other.
¡¨if i say there has been issues before, and you say there hasn’t - then how folly is that, if you are not aware of such things happening ( which i have to say surprises me greatly ) , then what is it worth my saying it has happened and it is even now or will you also deny this !! , once you where told some time back, that a buk sing senior spoke to a chan senior and your come back was that since you had not heard it therefore it must not been true, yet it did happen !!! so let me understand this, if extrajosepsh says it did - then it must have !!!, if extrajoseph says it did not - then it is fantasy !! or at best a lie !!! - hhhmmm good debating skills hahaha¡¨.
With your talk of the past masters hating each other, you are being irresponsible and down right disrespectful of dead people. Cut it out! What families do not have arguments? But they always made up in the end and allow the common good to prevail, don¡¦t pour fuel where there is only ember.
¡¨why do i not use names for this situation above, for respect and i do not wish to use names !!! now if you are aware of the situation then you will know who i am speaking about and then it will clearly show you that i know what i am talking about, in this fashion i do not cause disharmony nor do i bring issue to others and finally it is kept in the family, to clarify further it did not happen at home but away and this is all i will say on this subject, but i am sure you will bring the names out, you appear to do it often, you bring peoples names up to show you know what is going on, who these people are and that you are worthy of people to listen to you, yet isn’t the silence between words have more value !!!¡¨
If you say silence between words have more value, then please practice what you preach, that goes for your mentor as well.
¡¨i also find it so incredible you are now trying to say i am putting a wedge between the two clans, you are clearly a hypocrite , what about when much earlier on in this sad affair ( many months ago ) you where the one trying to put a wedge between the hung sing and buk sing clans by your words and intention- what you are so pure - please extrajoseph, again you try to discredit with such words - you truly are getting desperate.¡¨
I am trying to tell you and your mentor not to proceed with segregation drive. I am trying to show there is no evidence for this mad idea of another founder, it will destroy the CLF family and with it a valuable part of our tradition. You are putting a wedge between the two clans by supporting your mentor¡¦s point of view which threatens the very existence of CLF as a unity. There is no need for me to discredit Sifu Dave Lacey, he has been doing it quite nicely himself. What do you think his next installment will achieve? I came down heavy on the segregationists because I care, not because I am getting desperate.
¡§and a finale note - you ask me if i do CLF, now i will answer, but if i do will you answer my question on why you have asked could it be because i am also known for other skills !!! or do you wish to cross hands!! to your question the answer is YES !! oh by the way do you do CLF ??? i know i have asked a second question but please excuse me for such ignorance¡¨
If you do CLF and care about CLF then you know it is not about me wanting to cross hand with you. It is about something much more important than fighting.
¡¨although you say you do not want to go personal you track record shows otherwise, i await your most treasured response¡¨
I trust my response has not been personal. It is not you I care about, it is the future, for my son does CLF and I hope my grandson will practice it as well. It is a wonderful art and I hate to see it being destroyed by some guys who are driven by pride and prejudice.
Cheers,
JosephX
OH WHY DON’T YOU TWO JUST GET A ROOM!!!??? (joking)
bean curd…I still don’t get the name…do you mean tofu?
and why bring Wong Fei Hong into your fight? I’m sure he didn’t translate it into “bean curd” in fact I doubt if he savy English back then. (being funny…not meant to be taken seriously…or am I?)
Hi y’all
Sorry to butt into this discussion but I really do want to understand the whole history thing. I’m not taking sides but I have some questions.
If cheong yim is the founder of clf, what style of kung fu did chan heurng teach?What did he call it? Where did the “choy and the Lee” come from? Did chan heurng send cheong yim to Futsan or did Ching Cho? I have heard that after training with Ching Cho Cheong yim went back to king mui. Is this where Cheong yim and Chan heurng came up with the name choy lee fut? Did the two colaberate on the system?
My questions are sincere and not ment to start trouble or choose sides. I have read many histories and almost every branch has a little different spin to it.
Thanks from a novice.
iron-silk-
Just for your info and have nothing to do with the CLF history thing. One of Wong Fei Hung nickname is MR Tofu/beancurd or Tofu sifu, because of his easy going nature at his golden years.
DF