Morals, Ethics, Philosophy and CMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

I’m afraid you need to learn more about Chinese history and culture. In every part of China, it was an accepted practice for men who committed crimes to agree to become monks rather than serve sentences or be executed. In the Chinese mind, once they shaved their hair and went “inside” the monastery, they were no longer threats to society…

If every other temple in China had thieves, killers, rapists and assorted criminals in them, you think Shaolin did not? That’s just a fairy tale notion…

Feudal China had many legal twists that a Westerner not familiar with the culture could never understand

There is a technique called “Mai Tin Jaahg Faat”… it means literally “sell the field to get free technique”… implying you’d kill somone with that technique. Because in old feudal China, if you killed someone, you could avoid prosecution if you paid off the family, usually by sellig some land…

The martial hero novels were just that, FICTION, too bad too many believe them like fact..

22

lkfmdc,

yadda yadda yadda.

where do you get your information there buddy?

23

so enlighten us lfkdmc…

what is your extent of knowledge on chinese culture? where did you get this vast knowledge?

what makes you possess the correct knowledge as opposed to anyone else?

I can see that you feel you are more cultured in chinese society than i am? HMMM.

nice to dream.

but break it down to me. tell me about all the experience you’ve had.

I hope its not as simple as going to chinatown for dimsum. I hope that doesn’t backfire on you one day. You’re not dealing with the real chinatown like i am.

but i’ll let you tell it.

24

Greetings..

The old temples, very old, have philosophical and ethical inscriptions and art.. of course, history reveals the customs of some temples harboring social outcasts.. but to make the leap of logic that most monks were that way is without documented support.. there were a variety of motivations for the monastic life.. After Da Mo the practice of “Martial Monks”, defenders of the temples, became quite popular.. now, as fate would have it, the social outcasts in these temples were predisposed to this sort of discipline and often became the better defenders of the temples.. but, they trained and practiced in an atmosphere infused with philosophy and ethics.. For us to assert “Traditional” Chinese Martial Arts, we are obligated to teach it in the same cultural traditions.. not to push it on the students, but to give them an understanding of the cultural environment from which the Art evolved.. otherwise, it would be like teaching Law without the links to English Common Law, the Code of Hammurabi or the Latin constructs.. Certainly, we have no “right” to demand adherence to a philosophy, but understanding the philosophy is part of what makes an art “traditional”..

Many of the more popular CMAs were developed under Taoist supervision and infused with Taoist pragmatism.. Chinese culture during the formative years of TCMA was heavily influenced by Confucian concepts.. These are some of the elements that confer the term “traditional”.. Some will say that this has no bearing on learning to fight, i suggest that it may have, at least, some positive influence. Taoist notions of adherence to natural rhythms and cycles, notions of good health habits and energy cultivation have long been associated with enhanced martial skill.. Taoist philosophies and disciplines can benefit a myriad of other styles of MA and good living in general.. Confucian ethics insure a mutually respected encounter between potential adversaries, the chance to continue training rather than repeated duels (greatly diminishing the student population)..

In times such as we live in now, i find favor with notions of honor, WuDe, purpose and compassion.. equally, i find comfort in hard training so we can keep these arts alive and prospering.. i find favor with sharp skills that serve a purpose other than pure competition.. a purpose like improving the human condition.. There is, indeed, a fine line between the consequences of “purposes”.. and, that is where familiarity with various philosophies can make a difference.. not that one should adhere to any philosophy not of their own choosing, but that they can gauge the likely consequences of Martial knowledge with a purpose consistent with an improved human condition.. most philosophies seek harmony as opposed to chaos, though the means to an end can vary dramatically.. (as my boss, an ex B-52 pilot once said.. “there’s nothing more peaceful than a bunch of dead folks”..)..:eek:

This is an intriguing issue.. should we offer lessons in the philosophies that were fundamental cultural concepts during the development of the Arts? Not structured dogmatic teachings, but.. occasional insights into how a philosophical concept might affect training or use of the Art. Many people have very fervent beliefs regarding the term “Warrior”, one of my beliefs is that a “Warrior” acts on behalf of a harmonious purpose.. this in no way discounts martial ability, it merely guides the responsible use of it..

Random thoughts, again.. Be well..

25

one way the chinese government in the dynastic time control the monastic population is through “du die”. An certificate which must bear official seal, any monk without this certificate is not considered a monk by the government. This mean, this “monk” without certificate is subject to tax or draft in time of war.

In Tang and Song Dynasty, the treasury was short on money, hence, a practice of selling blank certificate was adopted. hence, a person can purchase this certificate and fill in their information later when they decide to join the monastic order. Or when the tax become very heavy or there’s a national emergency, people will fill out their blank certificate and have legal reason to refuse payment.

On a strict dollars and cents, one might not see the value of buddhist order. but, if they take the calculation to include social order, general spiritual health of population, etc, etc, then a thriving buddhist population provide more benefit than drawbacks.

by the way, stabbing someone might be too extremely, but hitting someone on the head may very well be another name for skillful means (or expedient means depending on your preference of translaton). Some people are very big on this thing called Buddhist guardians or unorthodox initiation, it all depend if there’s any bodhicitta.

26

Ethical principles are present within all social structures. Codes of behavior are necessary for harmonious social interactions. There are always behaviors considered right or wrong within every social group. What these behaviors are may vary somewhat from group to group, but they are necessary to provide social cohesion. At the very least a universal social ethic within all groups is, “Don’t screw over those within our group!!”

There are also universal ethical principles within all schooling groups namely: “Respect the teacher and respect fellow students.” These codes of conduct ARE forced upon the students within ALL successful schools. Without them learning is disrupted and the group will eventually dissolve. Students follow these codes of behavior for their own benefit and the benefit of the group. (i.e. If I don’t respect the instructor he wont teach me! If I don’t respect my fellow students they won’t help me learn and the instructor won’t teach me!) Those who do not follow these codes are ostracized from the group for the purpose of preserving the integrity of the group.

Other codes of conduct are valuable to learn and it is reasonable for a MA instructor to teach them. Enforcing them is another matter. For example: There is a time to fight and a time to run! There is a time to hurt and a time to maim! There is a time to maim and a time to kill! If a student is exposed to these principles within the class he will be better prepared to choose the proper action according to the specific circumstance. To think that it is not the instructor’s responsibility to discuss such concepts with the student exposes the student to what may be unanticipated social and legal consequences. Gun classes always involve the legal ramifications of improper gun usage, MA classes should also teach the ramifications of MA usage. It is to the benefit of the student and the school. Schools are not above civil law suits if a student or their family believes improper teaching methods exposed the student to unanticipated consequences. If an individual chooses to disregard the behavior codes at least they are doing so knowing the consequences they may expect to experience.

Without codes of conduct learning will not take place efficiently. Other codes of conduct protect the individual from anticipated and unanticipated consequences. Some codes of conduct inspire admiration from the general public towards the students of a school. This works to the benefit of the school and the students who gain prestige and respect and increased class enrollment!

Teaching ethical behavior codes serves a purpose and that purpose is the greater good of the group and the individual!

27

hskwarrior ,

Hate to break it to you, but my credentials to speak about the true history and culture of China far exceeds yours, as Chris Jurak just indicated with but one exception

Actually, my master’s in Chinese history is from George Washington University’s Elliott School of international affairs, when I was there it was the #3 international affairs school in the country.

Oh, and I held teaching positions in the history departments of Yeshiva University and NYU…

But who am I to talk about Chinese history :rolleyes:

28

chris,

If what you back up about lkf??? then thats fine. if he has the degree’s, then fine. thats no sweat off my shoulders. It is a possibility i could be wrong. never claimed to always be right. But when it comes to chinese culture im no square.

I just don’t like his bragging nature. and if he truly lived around a lot of chinese then he should know the chinese don’t like braggarts, and all he does is toot his horn. maybe thats a ny thing. he acts like a know it all, and tries to rub it in peoples faces.

I may not have gone to college and got some degrees in chinese history, but it is a passion of mine and i do it everyday.

speaking of new york, beware of the bay area’s DOGHOUSE radio show. They are doing their first show out of Stern’s old studio. These guys are the funniest things i’ve seen in a long time. The radio station i think is called Free fm.

29

see what i mean?:confused:

This man is so full of himself.

if he really knew, chinese shun that. they won’t in your face, but behind your back they will talk about that.

he’s like a spoiled little kid who has a new pair of shoes and mocks everyone who doesn’t.

but he does remind me of what the sf bay area chinese call Yellow fever. he’s not chinese, but has learned gung fu, went to china, married a chinese, wanted to learn and speak chinese, probably eats all his chinese food with chop sticks, and acts and thinks like a chinese much like bruce leroy. hahahahaha thats who he reminds me of…Bruce LeeRoy.

From this point on i only know him now as that.

frank

30

Frank, hate to break it to you, but you’re an idiot…

You talk about me? I’ve seen you post a thousand times on how special your brand of Choy Lay Fut is blah blah blah… how much time you spent in your Chinatown, self appointed historian and authority… If anyone comes off as a “wannabe” it’s you!

Sorry if my achievement bothers you so much, I get that a lot… it is called insecurity

But before you post out of your arse, you should be warned that you don’t know much about the people you post about…

I’ve close to 30 years now in TCMA, running in circles you seem to so desperately want to affiliate yourself with… I never make an issue of it. Not only am I an adopted, senior disciple of Chan Tai san, I’ve studied with a great number of very famous sifu. I’ve even spent considerable time in your neck of the woods. Stop posting like a 'tard because you’re coming off more and more like a moron on here

31

I’m curious why people think “morals” and “ethics” are part of TCMA training?

Because what you lack in actual curriculum, you can backfill with a lot of nonsense.

For kids, as long as it fits the social more, I don’t have a problem with it. regular shoulds and shouldn’ts of everyday life. But to try and lay that on a 30 something is at worst ludricous and at best the actions of a pompous ass. :stuck_out_tongue:

32

id rather be an idiot then be as funny looking as you.:slight_smile:

shave your head dude.

How special my brand of clf is? what the f?
self appointed historian? fool. check my certificate on my website. it was giving to me by my sifu sealed with his sig and chop. it also says that im the branch historian for our school. now what?

i’ve checked your website, and dude, you’re no threat.

if i was worried about the little success you claim to have then you could talk ****.
you are a commercial martial arts school, and just becuase you may have a few students doesn’t mean you’re at the top. i don’t care what you claim, or how you try to offend me, but i will brag about this, you could never go through what i’ve been thru in life, especially being paralyzed from the waist down and come back like i did. until you do, you are just another guy wishing to be chinese.

if you ask me, and i’ve shown a few your website now, it seems that im not the one here being laughed at. you don’t know me, or nothing about me.

the posts i put up here are 100% of the time only half assed. i ask questions to wake this funky ass place up. if you see right, anything my name goes on here on this forum the ratings skyrocket.

you are a sucker my friend. how you gonna call me a wanna be when you can find me in chinatown, ask any of the chinatown schools, shop owners, or restaurants if they have ever heard of me or recognize me. I know all the sifu’s here. I know and can intorduce you to tong big wigs. and I am the first non chinese to record Professor Lau Buns history. yes as a non chinese i have broken barrier neither you or most never will. SF’s chinatown is way different than anything you’ve ever expected, and you are exactly the type of non chinese we always talk about and laugh at. you know the one who trys to absorb as much chinese culture as he could so he can impress other chinese. He starts dating chinese girls. Why is that? why do non chinese people go and learn TCMA and want to be chinese? these non chinese even go so far as to correct chinese people at the pronounciation or whatever of their own language.

you know i told my sifu about how you tried to clown the tien in his name and he laughed saying "he thinks i should call it Hin Loong? lol! fool! picking on something so minute as a name. LOL!!!

I’m going on 25 years tears in TCMA with the same exact teacher i had when i first started. Is TCMA all of my martial art background? NO! I’ve been around the martial arts and doing it since the age of 5 while my father and older brother were black belts. Im’ 37 now, so you ain’t that far off from me there buddy.

what circles are you referring to? you say im trying to run in them? how would you know who i try to run with? its’ not me running around here bragging how successfull i am, or what degrees i hold, or how many teachers i’ve taken. So What!? whats that mean? see, i don’t take you serious because you are a new yorker. ya’ll always talk like this. so as we say here in the bay “It’s nuthin!”

http://www.hsclf.zoomshare.com/1.shtml/Hung%20Loong%20Kwoon

Very bottom last on the left is my self appointed Historianship certificate*********

But, i won’t waste my time arguing here on this forum with you. Its senseless.

33

Let’s remind the world who you are

http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/my_images/backofshirt4057.jpg

Pathetic, fat, bald POC… tuck your shirt in you slob

You work out everyday? What kind of “warrior” are you? Looks like your last battle was with a dozen donuts.

What you are? A high school drop out? From your posts you’re barely literate. Maybe you were paralyzed from the neck UP..

Does it bother you that not only do I have legitimate martial arts skills, but I also have an education?

Your entire life appears “half assed”

Do you have any idea who you are talking to? Dude my baai si name is “Chan Sai Hung”… for a self appointed Choy Lay Fut person, do you have any idea who that is??

The fact I am a adopted disciple of Chan Tai San means I’ve forgotten more Choy Lay Fut than you’ve ever learned. You aren’t qualified to wash my underwear.

I speak fluent Chinese and am well known not only in NY’s Chinatown but YOURS AS WELL…

Feel free to come to my school any time you are in NY, I’ll even fix your pathetic Chaap Choih…

34

I believe at least for myself-teaching morals and ethics is the responsibility of the Sifu. I believe this for several reasons-
one, yes, I teach children and teens. and although it is the parents responsibility, we are also looked at as second parents by many of the kids, as well as some of their parents. Teaching fighting without morality is simply irresponsible.
two-a student’s behavior directly reflects on the Sifu and the Mo-Gwoon, just as it reflects on their parents. So not only do I have a reponsibility to society, but a reputation in the local community, as well as Mo-Lum, that I would not want to see tarnished by teaching irresponsibly.
Three, or two and a half, or one-B..or…
Our Mo-Gwoon is very much like a family. We develop close bonds, and we take care of each other. The relationship between a Sifu and student is one of trust, honor,love and loyalty. There is a bond of brotherhood among Hing-Dai. I think of my students as so much more than simply customers, and they do not look at the school as if it were simply a mambership at Gold’s, or extra-curricular activity.
I do teach for a living, and I suppose in that respect I am a merchant.
BUT..if I treat my students like MERCHANDISE, then I am a merchant first, and a Sifu second. That is not my way.
Oh, and Ross-Sifu doesn’t represent all of us NY’ers.:smiley: Dave is Dave. Love him, or hate him, he’s always gonna be Dave. In the years that I have known him, he has done alot for the CMA community and represented his Sifu and lineage honorably.
Hey,Some people like to upset the applecart, David likes to kick it over.:stuck_out_tongue:

35

What’s pathetic is you don’t realize how delluded and sad you sound. Again, you have no idea who you are talking to, and just make yourself look like the moron you are

http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/group.jpg

Just a random pic of the people who I’ve spent time with and accept me as one of their own… do you even know who they are?

36

i want to clarify something

I want to explain what i meant.

There is a very big trend of non chinese who have never prior to learning gung fu-hung out, had friends, or even had chinese food. They take up classes at a gung fu school then a transformation happens. All of a sudden they want to become confuscious, speak in chinese, hope that other chinese will see and be impressed with what little skill you have. Then they drop their old friends and pick up a bunch of Chinese ones. After that they start dating only chinese girls. Want a chinese name ( i got one because i deal with the chinese community), then even go so far as to tell someone chinese “you’re saying that wrong”! To someone chinese!?!?! can you believe that sheet?:confused:

Now, for non chinese -its ok to absorb the art, and even learn the culture, but you don’t have to live the culture. When you look into the mirror you, me and the rest of the world know you’re not chinese, so why even go there? I am speaking with years and years of experience, and witnessing everything i’ve mentioned. And in one of the chapters of the book im writing called “Bak Gwai” i talk about non chinese and this transformation that goes on, and how the chinese truly laugh behind your backs becuase they can see what is happening.

99% of my friends going back to grade school have been asian whether its filipino’s, chinese, laos, polynesians, or what ever, but there are only a few causaian people i have met in my life that i get along with(joe keit being one of them). I was rasied so very different then most white folks (well, i’m half Sicilian and most of us don’t call ourselves white). So from my vantage point because of how i was raised i could see all the things that non chinese do, and can understand why they never wanted non chinese to learn their marital art.

brain ****…oops…sorry!

hsk

37

Gam San Yaau Meng Yan sik neih? Neih hai gam san tang yan gai yaau meng mah? Sou yi, neih gong guang dong wah? Neig yaau myuhn mei ah tong pai? Mou sik guangdong wah mah? Lau Bun hai Toi San yan, sou yi neih sik toi san wah? Giu ngoh!!!

Sau tao, neih hai mou yan, fai jai gong dai wah. Leih ng sik ngoh, neih hai mou yan…

38

Fongu! Stugatz you fugazee!

here i’ve posted others i’ve taken pictures with as well…

http://www.sifufmccarthy.zoomshare.com/1.shtml/Masters%20I%27ve%20photo%20album
See what i mean!!! wannabe chinese.

LOL!

39

You want to be taken seriously as “in the door” yet you don’t know basic Chinese?

You are a joke… a fat, pathetic, ignorant joke…
http://www.hlk.zoomshare.com/my_images/backofshirt4057.jpg

Your comtemporaries apparently are donut shop clerks and fast food counter people.

These are my contemporaries
http://message.axkickboxing.com/images/user_uploaded/lkfmdc/group.jpg

40

I can see how spoiled you really are.

If that’s how you think you can beat me by ranting in chinese you’re a fool.

now, you should know i will have it translated and if you are talking sheet aboutl lau bun, then two can play the game.