[QUOTE=MasterKiller;794552]This is where Chuck’s techniques come from:
School > style.[/QUOTE]
Cool, the Versa Climber, best machine in the world baby !!
Tyson and SPM
It wasn’t just his punches. It was his stance, body shape, footwork, and then punches that resembled SPM. I never said that he did it but my Sifu says that it kinda seemed like it.
I hope this helps,
WF
ps. great story Sal
[QUOTE=RD’S Alias - 1A;794510]So the evidence is contained in the books that were passed down?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is the case.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;794509]OK…I’m not doubting it. But other than anectdotal legends, I’m just curious if there is any actual proof or if this is just your best educated guess.[/QUOTE]
The actual proof is the actual manuals that the lineage holders possess.
Many are in Chinese museums, many as in the hands of the families.
i never said chuck didnt have any influence.
i find it hilarious you try to categorize everything into coming form a style. i think this is whats wrong with CMA. its like the chinese we got this he is our school. no he is our school. no he is ours!!
its okay to talk techniques if you are training. but come on really.
comments on “military xingyi” and a question
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Prior to and during the Japanese war (1930’s) empty hand xingyi basics were taught at the cenetral military academy at nanjing before weapon work was taught. (Perhaps because they were training officer/instructors?)
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Even though most loved the article (as noted by a mention in the forum and elsewhere), many of the comments and connections between xingyi and dadao in Gene’s article are incorrect/unsubstantiated. (To his credit, Gene did publish my letter that went through the article point by point.)
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unarmed combat in military action is almost certainly a non-existant situation. That’s why armies (like the PLA) teach improvised weaponry.
The question: I often see/hear people saying “a punch is a punch”. While I understand many different styles have the same punches, I have also heard it in terms of delivering power behind the blow. Here is where I disagree. There is a great deal of difference in terms of mechanical efficiency from say a shotokan reverse punch (yakazuki? sp?) and a vertical punch with elbows close to the body such as p’eng in xingyi.
Have others on the forum also heard this second comment or is this just unique to the people I happen to come across?
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;794550]If he got it from kenpo, meaningless as this may be, there is a documented link to cma. More research than anyone on this thread is ever going to put into this MIGHT answer whether that move came from cma, but no one is going to take this that far, so it stands as a possibility and nothing more, but it is a far greater possibility that it came from kenpo OR a style of kung fu than from a competition format.
And, if you’re going to say “human bodies can only do x amount of things”, you may as well say “human bodies can do more things than I could potentially count”.:p[/QUOTE]It is meaningless, unless you are stating that the energy used in SPM is the same as that in kempo… I take it you’re not?
It’s not a principle, it’s a frigging punch: a tech, which on the face of it looks the same, but in effect is as silly as saying Tyson’s style comes from or even is the same as whatever the hell kung fu style just tried to lay claims on it above.
The punch may come from SPM and may still bear superficial resemblance to SPM, but the principles of the two arts are nothing similar, plus Chuck kas never done ****ing kung fu so you can’t say that he’s using kung fu in the ring. Full stop.
I give up.
Good post Rovere, interesting and to the point.
[QUOTE=rovere;795247]1. Prior to and during the Japanese war (1930’s) empty hand xingyi basics were taught at the cenetral military academy at nanjing before weapon work was taught. (Perhaps because they were training officer/instructors?)
-
Even though most loved the article (as noted by a mention in the forum and elsewhere), many of the comments and connections between xingyi and dadao in Gene’s article are incorrect/unsubstantiated. (To his credit, Gene did publish my letter that went through the article point by point.)
-
unarmed combat in military action is almost certainly a non-existant situation. That’s why armies (like the PLA) teach improvised weaponry.
The question: I often see/hear people saying “a punch is a punch”. While I understand many different styles have the same punches, I have also heard it in terms of delivering power behind the blow. Here is where I disagree. There is a great deal of difference in terms of mechanical efficiency from say a shotokan reverse punch (yakazuki? sp?) and a vertical punch with elbows close to the body such as p’eng in xingyi.
Have others on the forum also heard this second comment or is this just unique to the people I happen to come across?[/QUOTE]
Its like comparing apples and oranges, yes they are both fruits, both grow on trees, both have seeds, both have a peel and both make juice, but no one will mistake one with the other.
A punch is a punch, just like a fruit is a fruit, that doesn’t mean they are all the same.
BTW, its gyaku-tzuki ( T can be optional) 
[QUOTE=ittokaos;794598]It wasn’t just his punches. It was his stance, body shape, footwork, and then punches that resembled SPM. I never said that he did it but my Sifu says that it kinda seemed like it.
I hope this helps,
WF
ps. great story Sal[/QUOTE]
Hmm Hung gar guys see he looked like a Hung Ga guy, as usual, we tend to see with OUR eyes and not anyone elses.
Fact is he boxed, pure and simple.
a simple observation…
Why is it that when someone doesn’t do KF you people try to convince everyone that they do, and when someone actually does do KF and fights with it, you try to convince everyone that they don’t do KF (ie. “thats just kickboxing”)???
I have yet to see one thing done in MMA that wasn’t already in existence in a traditional martial art somewhere already.
Why would you think that only MMA have trained that way and do what they do?
Martial arts (organized) have been around for about 5,000 years, if not more.
Don’t you think that due to the natural limitations of the human body that everything has been done already somewhere at sometime in TMA?
MMA is just gladiator training, something been down already from ancient rome to china. It’s a subset of TMA by all logic.
Here’s an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6reQEPBzuk
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;795490]I have yet to see one thing done in MMA that wasn’t already in existence in a traditional martial art somewhere already.
Why would you think that only MMA have trained that way and do what they do?
Martial arts (organized) have been around for about 5,000 years, if not more.
Don’t you think that due to the natural limitations of the human body that everything has been done already somewhere at sometime in TMA?
MMA is just gladiator training, something been down already from ancient rome to china. It’s a subset of TMA by all logic.[/QUOTE]
How dare you show common sense and straight forward logic. How dare you, sir!
:mad:
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;795521]Here’s an interesting video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6reQEPBzuk[/QUOTE]
oh man
i’m pretty pro-tcma
but that was bad
if it was supposed to be against a typical sport fighter you’d think they’d never tried to sweep the front foot before, or tried the pushkick to the fold in the waist (even if it could make you fall like that, what’s to stop you from grabbing the leg and taking him with?), or punching to the throat, or even throwing a combo for chrissakes.
that big guy did NOT like getting hit, didn’t know how to roll with a punch or how to brace for it- just fall, fall, fall.
honestly, it looks like a middle school kid teaching a boxing class.
in boxing, when you’re doing the jab-parry drill from the beginning; you actually try to make contact with both the jab and the parry…
how about this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj2edVl0DTo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sca81nzr3_U (a different angle)
nice to know that high level yiquan involves making the guy flinch so you can push him on the ground 2nd grader style.
shaolinlueb
As far as kung fu people claiming sport people as their own, i don’t know about that. I don’t think anybody is implying tyson studied spm. They’re just looking for examples.
last night i was chatting with a buddy. he was trying to explain the upperbody shape of his style’s fighting stance and I was trying to explain my current preference for lower body.
The upper body he was trying to demonstrate had the hips tucked forward, but the shoulders rolled too, primed for both punching and kicking. Most kung fu stances, well at least the fukien ones had the hips forward, but the shoulders way far back. A lot of thai stances had the hips right, but the shoulders still a little too far back. Boxing stances of course had the shoulders primed, but not the hips. When he saw the dutch thai boxing stance (think it was Ramon Dekker), he’s like “that’s it”.
That doesn’t mean Dekker was training what he was doing, or that he was trying to be dekker, just that the stance dekker was hitting the pads from in the clip resembled the ideal that he was working towards.
streetfighter
awesome observation. i think it’s because too many people want a hero and the guy who does fake kung fu and loses isn’t easy to paint as a hero; but the boxer that wins a lot and has something that resembles what certain people do is.
rovere
i was tempted to believe the “punch is a punch” crowd until i actually spent time developing the dempsey drop step, with the help of a relative of old-time boxer martin burke (fought dempsey)- he let me know it was possible and what to listen for. the mechanics of that punch go completely against typical boxing ‘corkscrew power’. Once I got it, my boxing trainer let me know there was a huge difference- a week after saying i’ll never be a power puncher, he was accusing me of trying to break his arm.