How many of you guys have been a student at a McDojo or are in one now? Care to share some of your stories? Why do you feel your present school iis not a mcdojo?
I was in chung moo for quite a while. I’ll spare you all the chung moo stories, they’re all over this forum anyway. However, if you’re bored, you can find my favorite one, one I like to call “Assistant Instructor Poopypants.”
Reasons my school is not a mcdojo: My teacher does not make money off of it, we don’t have to worship him, and we fight too often to hide any weakness in our kung fu.
After we moved here and I had decided I wanted go get back into MA, I made a real effort to check out every dojo (and kwoon) around. This was above and beyond the best one. They made the lower ranks train separately from higher ranks; fees were comparable with other dojos but also included use of weight machines, jacuzzi, pool, sauna, etc. I sat in on a couple of classes and at first and was very impressed with the professionalism of the instructors and the high standard they demanded from the students.
I’ve been very lucky. I hear a lot of horror stories about bad places to train and have never been in any. I don’t think staying in a bad dojo is better than not training on your own, by the way. Who needs the aggravation?
Agreed. I learned more real martial arts, though my mechanics weren’t right, in the time between leaving chung moo and starting kung fu, than I did in the years at chung moo.
I used to train in some questionable jujutsu…techniques were rather static but at least the training was decent. Not a McDojo per say.
My girl friend just started TKD and after 3 classes she is bored stiff. With classes every hour and never more than 10 students a class, she complains and tells me they never offer her advice on how to kick or punch properly, how to use what she is taught, and more importantly, teach her through real fighters as opposed to the fat asses walking around with black belts. She kickboxed for two years and knows how to throw a good punch, kick combos, and work the clinch. She is a tough little fox..too bad she is wasting away in TKD. I warned her though..now she has to suffer through the remainder 3 months of her contract and will be lucky enough to get her “yellow belt” after practicing the same three punches and kicks for a month…sucker! lol.
I told her i’d do some pad work with her so hopefully her interest and spark for training will stick around.
Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..
On the flip side, once I took a few classes from a school that was not particularly good. The instructor was decent, but not good. Anyway, it was a small school, he just liked teaching, and he didn’t charge his students very much. He was very kind to his students, and actually told me that I was welcome to practice at his school, but he did not feel he was good enough to be my teacher, so I was like a friend of the school.
There is a fine line between an honest, but ungifted teacher, and a mcdojo owner, and I think that what side of that line a school falls under depends upon the character of the teacher.
why do you feel requiring a contract designates a school as a mcdojo? in my own experience you get what you pay for, but i have seen substandard schools hide behind a contract to force their students into staying, so i know where the idea comes from, but i train under a contract at my present school and after 3 consecutive year-long contracts i know without a doubt it isn’t a mcdojo so i don’t think that means havin’ a contract screams “McDojo”
I love the smell of iron palm in the morning, it smells like… victory
Ima,
Not trying to flame, but contracts are not my favorite thing, they stick the student with all the responsibility and deny them the choice to leave the style without suffering monetary loss. If a student decides to leave a school before the contract is up, why should the school receive a penny for not having to train the student? It’s free money for the school, and that’s not really right.
I study Wah Lum Tam Tui. Just “celebrated” finishing my 2nd year – with pushups.
Contracts are definitely a hot topic … on the one hand, why should a student keep paying if he quits before his year is up? On the other hand, the instructor’s gotta pay bills, even if he doesn’t make a profit. So I think it comes down to how you feel about the school/system, and if the contract seems fair (if you have more than one choice, like 3, 6 or 12 months, and if you don’t have to mortgage your firstborn just to get in the door). Your own choice.
My school has contracts, and of course every student has his or her opinion on them. But I did a lot of comparison shopping before joining. The rates are average and I do feel like I’m getting my money’s worth. So I’m okay with it.
Its my opinion that once an instructor pays his bills by the cash of people who don’t practice under him, then he is now the proud owner of a McDojo. His profits should come from his teachings, and there are other ways to get together more cash(seminars, etc.)
Glad this is staying friendly, though. I’ve seen schools that signed contracts, but didn’t hold people to them when they wanted to leave. That’s OK, I suppose.
I know some schools give discounts acording to how long a contract you sign. So if you know you are going to stick with somthing it could work out for the students benifit. On the other hand I would take a few free lessons or at least sit and watch a few classes before I sign any contract. It should be the buyers responsibility to make sure they get what they want, if they sign up without looking into anything about that school or shopping around then they shouldn’t complain about the contract cause it would be their fault, and no we don’t have them at my school.
i hear where you are coming from, but here is my view on it. there are a few good reasons for contracts in my opinion, some good for the student and some good for the school. one good point for the student is it protects them from any rise in monthly dues. since our school is here in california we were hit very hard by the energy price hikes (we stay open 12 hours a day, light bill was enormous) and had to raise dues to cover it. those students who were on a contract were not affected.
now, from the school standpoint there is the cost of training, i.e. instructor pay, equipment and such. in my school in particular the first few months are almost exclusively private instruction, so they way i look at it the actual cost of the instruction is spread out over the year instead of the first few months being very expensive and then leveling off.
anyways, i gotta’ get back to work, everyone have a good day
D
I love the smell of iron palm in the morning, it smells like… victory
They are affiliated with Nick Cerio’s Kempo.
The guy who started that, Clermont Poulin, is legit. He knows is stuff!
So what’s wrong with them?
The number of schools;
8-9 years old kids with Black Belts;
Fees for all the belt tests (100% success rate)
Too much competitions ($$$)
Those who shout louder, jump higher and looks much like a gymnasts with their triple axels wins all. I’ve seen all that in their biggest international competition with people from as far as California (Paul Mitchell team).
But the biggest McKwoon in the area is own by an ancient student of my Sigung.
This guy learned the small and the large frame of Yang Tai Chi and a 1/2 of a Hung Gar starting form and decided that it was enough for him to start a school! Without is sifu’s authorization of course!
This guy now pretend that is father teach him everything he knows!
His father never teach him a single technique because he think that his son is not worth of it!
$$$ is the only thing in his mind! He’s the worst in town but he is the most visible. Big adds on highways, CMA symposium, etc. He like to be seen with big names of Chinese MA community!
This guy is a business man(successfull one i must say), not a humble martial artist
Enough time wasted on him!
Take a look here, http://www.sifutoy.com i think there’s an english version of his site.
WARNING : nearly 100% of what he claims is false!
You have to know how good the school is before you sign a contract. A contract may be a good way to motivate a student to attend every class, but how does it motivate the instructor to provide a quality class?
Let’s try to ignore feelings here and focus on the business aspect of MA. I, as a consumer, am paying for a service - martial arts instruction. I am a customer of my shrfu who is the service provider. If I am not happy with that service I should be able to switch providers, but a contract restricts that ability. I would either lose all or a large portion of my money if I terminated the contract. Think of it like your cell phones - how many of you are unhappy with the service but will not switch because you have a contract and it would be cost prohibitive?
Ima, you have been studying with your instructor for 3 years so signing a contract is not a big deal because you know what you are paying for and are happy with the instruction. Like most of us you probably also have a close bond with your teacher so money is not really an issue. In Budokan’s gf’s case she is stuck in a school she does not like because of a contract.
As a consumer (student) I dislike contracts unless they serve to fix prices. However they can be a good thing from an instructor’s viewpoint.
Protecting students from rate hikes – I never thought of that … good answer, Ima!
But that brings to mind that my school raised dues last year … however they allowed all the current students to renew their contracts at the old rates, so everyone got a 2nd year for the same price they paid before.
A contract should have an allowance for students to cancel it if unforeseeable stuff happens: like, if they move more than 10 miles away, or they are seriously injured and can’t train for several months. One of my training partners was in a car accident and will be in physical therapy for several months, so the school offered her the option of either canceling the contract or having those months credited so she could come and study later.
I think this clause is the law in Fla., I don’t know about other states.
I am not an instructor, but several of you are so I am going to need your help on this one.
I know all of you have seen students join your school, act very excited about studying, and then disapper in a month or two - usually when they find out it can take years of dedication to earn a black belt. Here is where a contract can protect the instructor. Acquiring new customers costs a lot more than keeping current ones, and that cost - whether opportunity or money - must be recouped. A contract can protect the provider from the whims of the consumer. Requiring that a contract be signed can force the student to think about what they are doing rather than just signing up based on emotion. Even if the student quits, the teacher recoups some of his cost by keeping what is left of the money in the contract.
A 3 month contract is not bad, but 6 months or longer makes me a little hesitiant to join up. Now that I have chimed in (and opened myself up for a huge flame war), what do you folks think?
Hmm. Well, if it was up to me, I’d recommend a 3-month contract to students who are taking their 1st martial art ever.
They don’t have the experience to tell a bad school from a good one, they probably are all jazzed up about learning MA. In 3 months (if they attend class regularly) they’ll know whether they like the art or not.
Three months also doesn’t cost very much, most students can just make one payment and they’re covered until renewal time.
hang on here, you guys seem to be looking at it only from a students point of view! now lets look at it from a school owners point of view.
If you plan to learn martial arts and you cant give you or your teacher a definate comminment then why are you joining? I am not saying that you should be forced to but if you plan on learning what do you think you will learn after less than a year? when i first opened my school my way of competing was NO CONTRACTS I would use this in my advertising and charge by the month. but what I found is that every month I had to go around and chase students for thier tuition every 30 days, and if the missed lets say the first week they would wait 3 more than come back and give me their next month tuition. That did not work at all I could never count on who would be there, I never got my bills paid on time and always paid late fees to everyone else.
And the drop out rate was incrediable, again no commitment. Then whenI opened my second location I started 3, 6 and 1 year contracts, everything worked out better, attendance was up every body showed up for class and parents felt like it was not a fly by night school who could close and month. So again you have to look at it from every point of view to judge something correctly, for one side of the story is only half the answer. I am far from a mckwoon I teach tradtional 8 step praying mantis in chinese to a small class of dedicated students, but contracts are a way of doing business and again if you cannot commit yourself to something for a year than who are you fooling?
so i don’t think that means havin’ a contract screams “McDojo”