Something that Gene said on one of my other threads made me think about this. He stated that one of the reasons Shaolin monks are placed on a pedestal is because they are iconic. He said that there really aren’t many martial icons out there. Ninjas, Samurai, and Shaolin monks are pretty much the order of the day. I’d agree that these are perhaps the most well known icons but I’m trying to think of others and breaking down those three icons. In a sense, these icons can be described as archetypes. They embody certain philosophies and represent a way of life. I think that many people today are disappointed with Shaolin monks because they don’t necessarily fit on the pedestal that people create. It is also important to remember that in the past Shaolin monks, or any of those icons, did not always fit the bill either. What are some of your thoughts on this topic? What other martial icons/archetypes can you think of? I’ll start out. I’ll break down the Samurai icon into the fiercely independent ronin and the loyal vassal. Another icon I’ll throw in there is the Yamabushi and the Wudang priest.
No one has anything to say?
are we only speaking in asian martial arts context?
what about the roman gladiator or the europian knight?
you can see the roman gladiator all over the world from condoms to food
there are many legends in each dynasty. too numberous to start.
anyhoo, there is shaolin in the north, there is wudang in the south.
shaolin famous stories starting from the 13 staff monks or gun zhen that saved king of Tang or Tang Wang Li Si Ming.
Li was the first emperor of Tang Dynasty. Shaolin was allowed to practice MA. and Shaolin was on the pedestal.–
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Shaolin is the Chan/zen sect buddhism starting from Bodhidharma or Da Mo.
Shaolin is a cultural and religious icon already.
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[QUOTE=The Xia;744058]No one has anything to say?[/QUOTE]
nope.
but, seriously, I never really bought in to any icon. I generally had teachers and other martial figures in my real life that I could look up to and model after. As I’ve aged and looked back, I realize they had their faults as anyone does but that makes what was good about them all the better…even if some of the bad turned out to be really bad.
I suppose icons can be ok to draw inspiration from for some people and that’s good if they can get someplace new from that inspiration.
as SPJ posted definatly Da Mo… from him there became many.
And now deep thoughts with spj
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;744202]as SPJ posted definatly Da Mo… from him there became many.[/QUOTE]
I would have called him stewart smalley, but, thats just me;)
China Icon
The Brothers in life and death Zhang Fei, Liu Bei, Guan Yu might have fictional as well as historical qualities, but embody the true archetype for which i find myself attempting to live up to.
Benevolence, Loyality, Honesty, selfless love, and a determined warrior spirit.
yes. this is the fav tale of all time.
the king, the minister and the general working together.
they “banded” together in the peach garden. or Tao Yuan San Jie Yi.
they are the best examples of many things as pointed out.
Yi especially.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYYrIu4Rntg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR0W5kB-8qw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BCaooja01Q&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obn6YVKVVX0&mode=related&search=
3rd visit to the straw house.
There’s the peasant-hero who uses everyday life as his training. For example “Coal” Ma of Ba Gua Zhang developed incredible striking power by hitting his sacks of coal while he waited for customers to come by. His competitors at the lei tai would often parade around with banners that had poetic referances to thier skills such as “Eagle swift, mountian firm”, or “Quick as the rushing wind.” Ma thought such things were silly, but on the insistance of the promoters he came up with a banner of his own. It read, “I hit you once and you are dead.” Supposedly he lived up to that statement on numerous occassions.
“Demon Leg” Chen had no formal wushu training. In fact he was a lowly concrete mixer. He would mix concrete with his legs for hours every day. In old China, concrete mixers would have to step into a vat of liquid concrete and stir it with thier bare feet to keep it from setting. Chen did this menial job for years, and as a result, his feet became extremly rough and calloused, and his legs were so muscular that it is said that the circumfrence of one of his thighs was greater than that of his waist. His family thought his legs were so deformed that they named him “Demon Leg” as a joke. He was teased about it mercilessly. One day a horse went mad in a crowded marketplace near a construction site, and after injuring several people it charged straight for Chen. Quick as a flash “Demon Leg” kicked the horse squarely in the jaw and killed it on the spot. After that a wushu teacher accepted him as a disciple, and the derisive name “Demon Leg” became his badge of honor.
Martial Icons …
Northern Shaolin, that is Henan Shaolin, would not have enjoyed the global fame and fortune that it has today if not for the long list of legendary Southern/Fujian Shaolin heroes who are immortalized by all kinds of pop culture and modern media (ie movies and internet). The rise of Southern Shaolin fame has a lot to do with secret society such as the Hongmen - former organization of present day crime syndicate, the triads. There are theories about the connection of Hongmen and Southern Shaolin and the intimate relationship between the Red Boats (pop culture) and Southern Shaolin martial arts (ie Yong Chun).
The phenomenon of secret society is based upon the concept of “behavioural social contract” which are ingrained in Chinese mindset largely thanks to martial novels through out the ages. The grand dady of these behavioural social contract (BSC) is the “Oath of the Peach Garden” which is the pack made between Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei. This is a dramatization based on real life and times of these 3 sworn brothren during the 3 kingdom period. This is echoed by the legend of the “water margin” which expanded the pack from 3 members to 108 including women. Hongmen largely identified with the heroes of this pack of 108 model.
The characteristics of BSC is that it blurs the line between family life and career life. It also perpetuates the syndicate elitist culture in political entrepreneurial community of ancient China. It’s all about the clan’s political fortune. This in turn institutionalized syndicate elitism in TCMA even until today. This is what is behind the adage “Tian Xia Gong Fu Chu Shaolin” (the world’s Kung Fu/martial arts comes of Shaolin temple).
Icons are always more than meet the eyes.
Mantis108
specific vs. generalized icons
I was thinking of the term icon in a more general sense, as a representation or a symbolic figure, when I made my ninjas, monks and samurai comment. Certainly you could use it to apply to specific heroes like Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei, sort of in the same sense that you might say Britney is a pop icon, but that’s not how I intended the comment. Besides, I’d argue that while Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei are well known to sinologists and Chinese, most Americans don’t have a clue who they are. That being said, I’d venture that Samurai Jack’s peasant-hero is also too secular. I’m thinking more of icons that general public know. BTW, this is a tangent to the Monk Fetish thread, which has gone a little sour (or perhaps obtuse is a better word).
Sad to say that the more I think about it, the more Rex Kwon Do rises as an American icon for the martial arts. There’s this persistent view of martial arts as nerdy and as second class in America. It’s even more pronounced in kung fu. I’d attribute that to two factors: 1. the easily caricatured and ubiquitous kung fu movie and 2. the word kung fu. ‘Fu’ just sounds funny. It’s a funny sounding word if you speak English, akin to foo foo or phooey.
yes. there are different levels of brother/sisterhood across the society.
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“oath of the peach garden” etc is like a bond by blood. that one would die for your bro if needed to. this would exist in the military, police or underworld societies etc.
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loose bonds would be from the same hometown, college, same or similar professions etc. we would help “brothers” from the same town, school etc. we are not required to, but we may like to.
sort of extended family–
[QUOTE=PangQuan;744061]are we only speaking in asian martial arts context?
what about the roman gladiator or the europian knight?
you can see the roman gladiator all over the world from condoms to food[/QUOTE]
I mean in a context of styles that people still practice today. The armed combat of Roman gladiators and European Knights isn’t really a common practice outside of role-play Renaissance fair stuff and some reconstructionalists if I’m not mistaken.
Yeah I think that mcdojos have given martial arts a bad rep. If you are over a certain age and say you practice martial arts, many people look down on that.
Samurai Jack,
I think that’s a good archetype you have identified. The peasant martial hero is certainly something you can find in Wuxia novels, Hong Kong movies, and legends. Although it’s not really something that’s in American pop-culture, it’s certainly has deep roots in Asian culture.
Another one I thought of is the Karate strongman. I’d say it’s relatively modern and very Japanese. I think Choki Motobu and Mas Oyama fit this archetype I’m talking about. You can also see this archetype in Japanese movies (like many of Sonny Chiba’s), comics, and video games.
Good post.
[QUOTE=Oso;744197]but, seriously, I never really bought in to any icon. I generally had teachers and other martial figures in my real life that I could look up to and model after. As I’ve aged and looked back, I realize they had their faults as anyone does but that makes what was good about them all the better…even if some of the bad turned out to be really bad.
I suppose icons can be ok to draw inspiration from for some people and that’s good if they can get someplace new from that inspiration.[/QUOTE]
It’s true that even icons are human beings too. But deeper then that, I think even the archetypes themselves have a lot more to them then what often meets the eye. I agree that icons can be good if people draw inspiration from them to become good martial artists. Plenty of good martial artists were inspired by the silver screen for example. I think it becomes a problem when the icon doesn’t inspire people to train hard, but to act in a different way merely to feel cool. Unfortunately, I think the Shaolin monk icon tends to do this a lot (probably because the mysticism associated with this icon seems to attract a certain type). When the Shaolin monk icon inspires someone to act differently so he feels cool (as opposed to inspiring someone to train hard), I think that person will likely come off as a nerdy basket case. The more people that become like this, the more it feeds into the bad rep that martial arts have and the growth of the Rex Kwan Do icon that Gene mentioned.
ttt…
How about the one icon/archetype that is embodied by a single person? The samurai, and ninja, and shaolin monk are all clearly identifiable perpetuated at least in image and association to martial arts.
But this conversation is incomplete without including Bruce Lee. Primarily in one of three images. 1) No shirt or wife beater, black pants 2)black “kung fu” outfit with white cuffs 3) Yellow jump suit with the black stripe. And all with nunchuks, or as it is said in the icon/archetype proper, “numbchuks”.
Bruce Lee as an icon.
[QUOTE=brothernumber9;744847]How about the one icon/archetype that is embodied by a single person? The samurai, and ninja, and shaolin monk are all clearly identifiable perpetuated at least in image and association to martial arts.
But this conversation is incomplete without including Bruce Lee. Primarily in one of three images. 1) No shirt or wife beater, black pants 2)black “kung fu” outfit with white cuffs 3) Yellow jump suit with the black stripe. And all with nunchuks, or as it is said in the icon/archetype proper, “numbchuks”.[/QUOTE]
Good observation. I think many people have gotten into martial arts because of him. There are also loads of people that want to be like him. But people want to be more like the Bruce Lee of legend then the real Bruce Lee. The legendary Bruce Lee is the icon. But as many of us are aware, the real Bruce Lee differs from the icon. But the same can be said for other icons. Although this case is different because those other icons encompass many people where this icon is a reflection of an individual. The icon of Bruce Lee still fits into a certain kind of hero archetype. Bruce Lees onscreen characters were mostly calm and collected heroes who enjoyed what they did. Bruces characters are part of the same category as James Bond.
The taichi hippy, the “I’m a westerner who’s got an easterner trapped inside of me”, the I just switched from TMA to MMA so I’m tough I need to act overly masculine but really inside I just like touching men:eek: , the I’m an old sweaty guy but I love my once a week karate,