i find it very funny in china every one tells me wingchun focuses on real fighting and i come to western world and people always talk about finding something deep or artistic or spiritual in this fighting style made by guangdong boat robbers
lol
Didn’t WSL call VT “Wing Chun/Ving Tsun Kuen Hok”? “Hok” as in “the study of”?
yes he did. Thats why sifu au yeung (cliff) calls his school a martial institute. To instill wsl’s idea of it being a science. Like wsl’s video ’ the science of in-fighting’. I have a copy of wsl calligraphy saying ‘wong shun leung ving tsun kuen hok’.
Jin, first of all, welcome to the forum. I have watched a couple of your videos and congratulate you on your very good instructional ability and presentation, your ability to language your ideas.
People often don’t realize that all relationships have a common base. When you are squared off against an opponent, you and that person have a “relationship”. I feel that martial arts has afforded me the ability to understand relationships better, whether as a fighter, a husband, a father, or a friend. To be successful in a relationship, one must understand the true meaning of commitment and trust - not far from a relationsihp with a friend, your spouse, your boss. To commit to my opponent is to offer myself 100% to complete whatever it is we are doing together. To trust my arsenal, my hands and feet, so that I do not need to think. This may sound quite abstract, but the top martial arts people, top sport athletes, experience this.
The problem with martial arts training is it has to have a starting point. What brings someone to your mo kwoon? Most of the time, the latest action star movie. It is the rare student who is looking just to “improve thei lives”. Many experience this through music, through religion etc. The Mo Kwoon is also a social gathering, a belonging. Those who say lineage does not matter likely do not experience this. Because all they want to know is “how to fight”.
“Kung Fu is learned, not taught”. It is nothing but a collection of experiences based on some guidelines passed down from a “teacher”. kung Fu is an expression of ones self. I will differ with those who find the Kung Fu techniques “outdated” or obsolete. I will differ with those who speak of weapons that have nothing to do with modern fighting. It is likely coming from those who have not experienced truly advanced levels in the kung fu or been taught in the correct manner.
My Sigung, Moy Yat, was known for his mastery of art - painting and stone. My Sifu recently retired from being a corrections officer at a maximum security prison, well known for using his ving tsun skill in real prison riots. He is truly “battle tested”. I have students who have done well walking off the street in sparring tournaments with little preparation. Hence, when someone comes to learn from me my first question is “why do you want to learn kung fu?” It is my job, as the Sifu, to help them reach their goals through the martial art, not to make the martial art fit into them.
Good luck with your kung fu. If you are ever in the Philadelphia area, you are most welcome to visit our schools.
Art is open to interpretation.
A painting that someone might praise, looks like an incoherent mess to someone else. So there is debate.
Martial artists are not open to interpretation.
Someone attempts to block a punch and fails. He lays unconscious on the ground.
Is there debate?..or excuse?
[QUOTE=bennyvt;964469]martial arts is a load of crap. Wsl used to say vt is a martial science. Art is subjective, it depends on peoples prespective i like stuff but you don’t. Fighting is not subjective, if both people are equal the better style wins. Not the one i like better.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know if you can escape the art, because every student expresses it differently. The day a teacher turns out clones, is the day that school goes down - some script kiddie will publish the 3 step guide to defeating them.
i think dirtyrat is right. Well done for your opinion.
carl lewis and johnson (the guy that got banned for steriods) both ran, they both had different ways of expressing that skill or style. Does this make it art or just different ways to get to the line first.
[QUOTE=Ng Mui;964842]Art is open to interpretation.
A painting that someone might praise, looks like an incoherent mess to someone else. So there is debate.
Martial artists are not open to interpretation.
Someone attempts to block a punch and fails. He lays unconscious on the ground.
Is there debate?..or excuse?[/QUOTE]
Ridiculous. The interpretation isn’t on the success or failure of the attempt, but the most efficient method for the practictioner.
I can show you 30 different ways to block and/or deflect a punch. Some will be more suited to a mental state or body type than others.
If you weren’t so closed minded you’d take a look at boxing and see the MASSIVE amount of interpretations of something as simple as punching and blocking.
Such a statement shows a SEVERE LACK of understanding of the varying types of human bodies and personalities which would create an extreme difference in effectiveness of a given technique, idea or strategy.
****, it pains me to even have to read your nonsense.
[QUOTE=bawang;964699]i find it very funny in china every one tells me wingchun focuses on real fighting and i come to western world and people always talk about finding something deep or artistic or spiritual in this fighting style made by guangdong boat robbers
lol[/QUOTE]
The difference is in education.
We have far more exposure in the Western world to Art, Science and Philosophy.
The problem is we have many people who have a superficial understanding of these things and talk out of their ass about them.
But to say they don’t apply to martial arts? You don’t need them, to be an effective fighter. Just like you don’t need to understand Physics, Geometry, Anatomy or Psychology to be an effective fighter.
But all of the above is still a very real part of martial arts.
Whether you want to further your understanding in those subjects is up to you.
To say they don’t apply is sheer idiocy.
[QUOTE=ChinaBoxer;964378]
so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it’s an important one.
[/QUOTE]
" 'cause chicks dig guys with skills. nunchuck skills, bo skills, computer hacking skills…"
Doesnt really matter
“Lineage in WC doesn’t matter”
The Lineage, Style, System, Art or even Sifu you have is not equal to skill in fighting you obtain.
A weak non fighting person with a top pedigree lineage, battle tested sifu and great system that has multiply facets to it a waste of space
A strong well season fighter with natural ability and honed skill who has non-fighting sifu an wack lineage but can still destroy the most top fighters is what matters.
Diligent Training
Natural Ability
Experience in fighting
These three things make good fighters not the lineage or sifu…
I regress. The Term Martial Arts is not even Wing Chun term. Its not cantonese or mandrid.
The word originates from Latin the lanaguge of the romans…Meaning Arts of Mars (God of war also known as Ares). The term martial arts was first designated for european fighting styles and combat systems. Not japanese and chinese pugilism.
MARTIAL = Chinese Boxing or Pugilism is the reason WC was design. To fight and kill your enemies in short
ART = Philsopical and Religious and Cultural and Traditional ideology is what makes the art!!!
Religion: It is more than Likely that WC as an art form attributes are found in both chan buddhism and taoism!!! hint pray to buddha thrice!!!
Chi kung and meditation are other attributes to the art form in addition to its other benefits.
Other Styles of Gung fu also adhere to other Chinese religious texts like Baguazhang does to I-Ching.
But in short…WC as taught by non-buddhist in a non-temple setting is secular. Thus nullfying the art form in its entirety. The prime source of the art is derived from its religion and cultural adherence. Westerners do not adhere to Chinese culture. Nor do they conduct their lives by Taoistic precepts on a day to day basis.
The practice of Wing Chun for me is purely Combat and Offense.
WuShu and acrobats are more suited for the beauty of the art. WC is more suited for the fighting aspects…
As for any techniques that are not usable or suitable for todays fighters ie boxers, Muay Thai, BJJ guys. Well simply fight those type of fighters to learn how to adapt your Techniques to the situtation. Every Techique can be innovated to make a complete style out of alone.
The key is to take those techniques that best work for you, your body structure and your mental understanding. An apply them against others who you currently encounter today instead of fantasizing about fighting someone from ancient china in year 1403 B.C.E.
Wing Chun basis theory is about fighting. Not living your life…WC principles is about how to deal with a foe, opponent or enemy not how to drive a car or deal with your boss or job.
WC teaches you techniques and how to apply those techniques against a struggling opponent…If i want to learn morality, character, integrity or how to live a better life i will pick up a bible and read.
if I want to learn fighting strategem. i will study WC, Boxing, and Chin Na!
[QUOTE=ChinaBoxer;964378]Do we as martial artists focus to much on the “martial” side of the coin and not the “artist” side?
i mean, think about it, we all train very hard and put in alot of effort, time and money for years to improve our fighting skills. but out of the millions of martial artists how many actually have to use it to defend their lives in the street or the life of someone else? i’m not talking about “defending your ego” fights over spilled beer. i’m talking about someone ready to kill you, literally. maybe less than 1% of all martial artists in the world will ever have to face that situation.
so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for? this is a question i keep asking myself. and i think it’s an important one.
so many people think that if you compete in the ring and do tons of sparring, you are “tough”. but you wanna know who IMO are tougher? the father trying to raise a good family in a tough economy, or the single mother that has to work three jobs to support her children. now these guys are tough! why do i say this? because ultimately, it’s “life” that will be our ultimate arena, it’s “ourselves” that will be our greatest opponent.
and that’s why i personally train so hard and spend lots of money on instruction and have been doing it for so long. to learn “how” to get through life without meeting force with force. so that when life comes at you hard, you have the training to get through it and continue on the journey.
this leads me to another question, why is it that every martial arts school has a “written” guide to the “martial” side of progressing from basic to high level or white belt to black belt as an example, but nobody has a “written” guide for the “artist” side? IMO this has to do with focusing too much on “technique” and the “if you do this, then i do that” mentality, which IMO is detrimental to a martial artist. but if you focus on the “concepts” and the “why” each and every movement works, then you are teaching yourself the “guide” to getting through life, such as “go straight”, if you meet an obstacle don’t meet it with force, go around it but always go straight, stay flexible but always go straight, this leads to traveling far on your journey.
i strive every day to be a “martial ARTIST” and not a “MARTIAL artist”, because eventually when all of us get to the “top of the mountain”, the view is the same for everyone.
take care and peace!
Jin[/QUOTE]
Bravo Jin!
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1144780]“Lineage in WC doesn’t matter”
The Lineage, Style, System, Art or even Sifu you have is not equal to skill in fighting you obtain.
A weak non fighting person with a top pedigree lineage, battle tested sifu and great system that has multiply facets to it a waste of space
A strong well season fighter with natural ability and honed skill who has non-fighting sifu an wack lineage but can still destroy the most top fighters is what matters.
Diligent Training
Natural Ability
Experience in fighting
These three things make good fighters not the lineage or sifu…
I regress. The Term Martial Arts is not even Wing Chun term. Its not cantonese or mandrid.
The word originates from Latin the lanaguge of the romans…Meaning Arts of Mars (God of war also known as Ares). The term martial arts was first designated for european fighting styles and combat systems. Not japanese and chinese pugilism.
MARTIAL = Chinese Boxing or Pugilism is the reason WC was design. To fight and kill your enemies in short
ART = Philsopical and Religious and Cultural and Traditional ideology is what makes the art!!!
Religion: It is more than Likely that WC as an art form attributes are found in both chan buddhism and taoism!!! hint pray to buddha thrice!!!
Chi kung and meditation are other attributes to the art form in addition to its other benefits.
Other Styles of Gung fu also adhere to other Chinese religious texts like Baguazhang does to I-Ching.
But in short…WC as taught by non-buddhist in a non-temple setting is secular. Thus nullfying the art form in its entirety. The prime source of the art is derived from its religion and cultural adherence. Westerners do not adhere to Chinese culture. Nor do they conduct their lives by Taoistic precepts on a day to day basis.
The practice of Wing Chun for me is purely Combat and Offense.
WuShu and acrobats are more suited for the beauty of the art. WC is more suited for the fighting aspects…
As for any techniques that are not usable or suitable for todays fighters ie boxers, Muay Thai, BJJ guys. Well simply fight those type of fighters to learn how to adapt your Techniques to the situtation. Every Techique can be innovated to make a complete style out of alone.
The key is to take those techniques that best work for you, your body structure and your mental understanding. An apply them against others who you currently encounter today instead of fantasizing about fighting someone from ancient china in year 1403 B.C.E.
Wing Chun basis theory is about fighting. Not living your life…WC principles is about how to deal with a foe, opponent or enemy not how to drive a car or deal with your boss or job.
WC teaches you techniques and how to apply those techniques against a struggling opponent…If i want to learn morality, character, integrity or how to live a better life i will pick up a bible and read.
if I want to learn fighting strategem. i will study WC, Boxing, and Chin Na![/QUOTE]
Right on the money! Lineage, styles do not matter. Truth in your skill and the result of your training is what matters; whether it’s internal or external, physical or mental… Truth is truth and that truth is based on how honest you are with yourself and your results.
Many years ago I gave a demo for a local TV station. I performed a TCMA form just like all TCMA guys would do. After my demo, the TV reporter said, “Kung Fu is like dancing …” After that day, I hated the word “ARTIST”.
A fight is like a dance with someone you just met on the dance floor however the difference is that your both trying to time the right moment to step on one another’s toes all the while avoiding getting stepped on.
[QUOTE=dirtyrat;965531]" 'cause chicks dig guys with skills. nunchuck skills, bo skills, computer hacking skills…"[/QUOTE]
Great movie! 
[QUOTE=nasmedicine;1144805]Great movie! :-)[/QUOTE]
i had to watch it twice to decide whether i liked it or not… 
so why do we train so hard and spend so much money for?
I don’t regard MA as an overly expensive activity. Auto racing, sailing, polo, kite surfing, heliskiing …
I’d prefer to be famous as a MARITAL artist …