im trying to understand some of the different mantis styles as i might decide to take it up, but im trying to figure out if its internal or external or both…ive heard of taiji mantis but im not really sure of its implications. there seem to be a dozen different styles of mantis out there and so im not too sure what to make of it. any opinions? 
It is both.
lol. short and sweet there, njm.
all martial arts is both, Aeturnal. I don’t really count your run of the mill TKD or Krotty school as martial arts anymore but good, traditional karate will have it’s internal aspects.
i’ve long thought that too much attention was paid to the difference between ‘internal’ and ‘external’.
Northern Mantis under the right teacher will have plenty of both for you.
where are you located?
Are you familiar with the idea that the original intent of Internal MA and External MA was Ours (Internal) vs Theirs (External)? So External arts would be arts outside of the area (I believe it was a region in China).
I read that either here or on MQ but don’t remember (Jake maybe?) who posted it. Maybe they’ll speak up because I think it makes a lot of sense. No art is strictly Internal or External by our current definition.
[QUOTE=Oso;736859]
Aeturnal.
[/QUOTE]
Ooh, I like this word!
[QUOTE=NJM;736893]Ooh, I like this word![/QUOTE]
um, it’s the dude’s handle.
but, yea, kinda funny/coincidental.
Mantis108 could expound upon the ‘tai chi’ in tai chi praying mantis but i’ve never studied any martial art that didn’t have the same concepts as tai chi.
but then again, i don’t get the big whoop over ‘tai chi’ as some holy grail of internal discipline. i think i may have to switch my usual ‘ninjas suck’ to ‘tai chi sucks’ 
hmmm…how badly would I get swarmed if I just posted that on the internal arts forum??? 
[QUOTE=Aeturnal;736816]im trying to understand some of the different mantis styles as i might decide to take it up, but im trying to figure out if its internal or external or both…ive heard of taiji mantis but im not really sure of its implications. there seem to be a dozen different styles of mantis out there and so im not too sure what to make of it. any opinions? :)[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the board. The style of mantis really doesn’t matter because “Tanglang Jiu Shi Tanglang” (mantis is mantis) ultimately. More importantly, it is not about conforming to the style; rather it is about the individual gaining insights through the training that the style offers. People took the system of mantis and developed insights through it, then they establish their own style of mantis. There are 4 major branches of mantis today (Meihwa, Taiji, Qixing, and Liuhe). Each have its own corpus. Then each branch in turn has its own hybrid styles (8 Steps, Mimen, Changquan, Wah Lum, CCK TCPM, etc). Mantis as a system is flexible and empowering enough to inspire individual growth. That, my friend, is the essence of true Kung Fu.
As for internal or external nature of mantis, it is no doubt both as pointed out by others before. The distiction is also mostly political rather than technical in nature IMHO. As long as you are using your physcial body to fight, it is both internal and external harmonized as one - period. The minute some one starts telling you this is internal style and that is external style, you can be sure that such person doesn’t get Kung Fu at all and he’s BSing you with bogus theories and psuedo-philosophies. Incidentally, those people (ie form performers) generally have never been involved in a real self defense or real fight situation in their life and don’t even understand or appreciate the value of sparring with a resistive partner. So please beware of the quality of instruction you are about to receive from your teacher mantis or otherwise.
Regards
Mantis108
well said
{hoists beer in the general direction of Yellowknife}
im actually in nyc i plan to check out master su yu changs class in the future…im intrigued with internal vs. external question because i always thought the internal element would better handle the "big guy vs. little guy " question…it seems like tai chi which is internal, doesnt seem to be able to stand as a fighting style on its own, but i mean i could be wrong i just havent seen it in action. im assuming tai chi mantis would be something along the lines of bringing the 2 together? correct me if im wrong. thanks for all the responses guys!
Hi Oso,
Chin, Chin.
{hoists burbon towards Nashville instead} 
[QUOTE=Aeturnal;736932]im actually in nyc i plan to check out master su yu changs class in the future…im intrigued with internal vs. external question because i always thought the internal element would better handle the "big guy vs. little guy " question…it seems like tai chi which is internal, doesnt seem to be able to stand as a fighting style on its own, but i mean i could be wrong i just havent seen it in action. im assuming tai chi mantis would be something along the lines of bringing the 2 together? correct me if im wrong. thanks for all the responses guys![/QUOTE]
I understand where you are coming from.
First off, Kung Fu in action is about details. It is safe to say that Kung Fu regardless of styles are developed with the weaker constituation in mind which often translated into a physically, mentally or emotionally weaker being. The goal of Kung Fu training is to transform the weak into the strong. It is this amazing transformation that we called Kung Fu. Proper attitude and proper training protocol is key. The so-called big 3 internal styles (Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji) could all be linked to other so-called external styles roots (Xingyi & Bagua - Fanziquan and Taiji - Tongbi, etc) if we dig deep enough into their evolutions. So there is really no such a thing as internal is better or worst provide the training is realistic and pratical in nature. Now, in modern times these so called internal styles and other traditional style have bought into the one strike one kill mindset so much so that they pay little to no attention to cardio vascular training and strength training at all. To them, body mechanics and non aerobic (not to confuse with anaerobics) musculature movements trump everything else. This in part is done to delimit the practice of Kung Fu for the non athletic inclined people to broaden the demographic. But also it is done because of the gross misconception of traditional thoughts and worldview namely the Yijing (classic of change).
The Greater Meihwa Line of Praying Mantis (Meihwa, Taiji, Taiji Meihwa) as we know it all came from the same source namely Liang Xuexiang (1810-?). These styles are named based on an entry (profile of praying mantis) in the manuscripts of Liang, which shows some degrees of proficiency of applying the Yijing concepts in constructing a pugilistic system; thus, understanding the Yijing would help gaining insights into the Tanglang of Liang Xuexiang IMHO. BTW, the original designation of Taiji in the Taiji Tanglang refers to the Taiji hands (the dynamic nature of the mantis hook hands) that employ archtypical attributes of Yinyang, Gangrou, and Xushi. This has nothing to do with Taijiquan the style found in Chen Jia Gou, Henan. Later on we also see that the corpus of Taiji Tanglang in general is different from Meihwa (plum blossom) in that ground fighting forms are found in the Taiji Tanglang (both in Jiang Hualong-Song Zide line and Sun Yuanchang line) while White apes series is found mainly in the Meihwa Tanglang.
In the CCK TCPM, we do have Taijiquan and other Taiji forms in our curriculum but that’s a different story. I will leave that for now.
Warm regards
Mantis108
[QUOTE=mantis108;736944]Hi Oso,
Chin, Chin.
{hoists burbon towards Nashville instead}
[/QUOTE]
LOL.
my arms don’t reach that far
yu shan is in Nashville
I’m in Asheville
i guess im trying to understand more how an internal and external style differ then…why just not bother doing something like muay thai or kyokushin if there really is no difference? im not saying one should do that, im just trying to understand what the real difference is
the point is that there isn’t really any difference.
‘do watcha like’
(and I’ll buy a beer for the first person who can tell me the musical group that line is from)
don’t worry about any presupposed differences between ‘internal’ and ‘external’
muay thai has lots of tradition and rituals that could be regarded as what you are thinking ‘internal’ is.
not sure about kyokushin as I’ve only fought one kyokushin fighter 
from what I know of Master Su, you’ll get good mantis training. heh, we would be brothers in a sense as we would both be training in lines of mantis deriving from Zhang De Kuei. so, for what it’s worth, you’d be part of a pretty huge family of mantis peeps.
find a good teacher, the rest will follow.
dayum, i’m being corny as hell tonight.
[QUOTE=Oso;736979]the point is that there isn’t really any difference.
‘do watcha like’
(and I’ll buy a beer for the first person who can tell me the musical group that line is from)
don’t worry about any presupposed differences between ‘internal’ and ‘external’
muay thai has lots of tradition and rituals that could be regarded as what you are thinking ‘internal’ is.
not sure about kyokushin as I’ve only fought one kyokushin fighter
from what I know of Master Su, you’ll get good mantis training. heh, we would be brothers in a sense as we would both be training in lines of mantis deriving from Zhang De Kuei. so, for what it’s worth, you’d be part of a pretty huge family of mantis peeps.
find a good teacher, the rest will follow.
dayum, i’m being corny as hell tonight.
:D[/QUOTE]
cool, well i appreciate the encouragement, im still just trying to understand what the difference is btwn the 2…i mean it seems like there would be a huge difference btwn them ehh?" i dunno
Styles are different expressions of the same energies.
Heed Oso’s advice about a good teacher. I would train with the best teacher regardless of what he taught, EVEN TKD!!
[QUOTE=Oso;736979]the point is that there isn’t really any difference.
‘do watcha like’
(and I’ll buy a beer for the first person who can tell me the musical group that line is from)
[/QUOTE]
Digital Underground (Make that a red stripe )
Aeturnal
Internal is commonly associated with soft, passive-aggressive movements.
External is commonly associated with brute, assertive-aggressive type movements.
However, an External emphasis also refers to how something looks, while an Internal emphasis also refers to how something feels and functions.
What your thinking of as Nei Jia (Tai Chi, Xingyi, Bagua etc) are systems that are predominately composed of passive-aggressive training methods giving a soft and gentle look to the practice. However, the person playing it may only understand the look of the movements (an external expression), rather than the feel and function (an internal expression).
Likewise, a Muay Thai fighter may emphasize a passive-aggressive defense and focus on spiraling the spine to produce power, thus making such an expression of Muay Thai " soft" and “internal” in principle.
Internal and External is a matter of principle emphasis, and is not exclusive to individual systems.
Tai Chi, Xingyi, and Bagua fighters that I know do heavy bag and focus mitt work, while karate guys I know practice slow to refine the kinetics of individual techniques.
Mantis is balanced. The internal and external emphasis is matter of how you wish to train.
Hope it helps,
M.Dasargo
Sorry Michael. I thought your explanation was confusing. Of course if I misread your post my apologies.
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Mantis including most Chinese combat systems are both external and internal. I know you said this too.
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Internal refers to internal energy training or qigong training. Mostly for health purposes. External refers to all other training which of course is fighting training. Any combat system that only trains qigong is not a combat system. It is a health system. By default all combat systems are external and as I mentioned most Chinese combat systems include internal qigong training as well.
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On a side note, qigong training can also be divided into external and internal but that is a separate thing.
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When talking about techniques most people end up confusing the words external and internal with the intended meaning direct (hard) and indirect (soft). But internal and external has nothing to do with techniques as I mentioned in point two. When talking about attacking methods we can talk about them in terms of direct or indirect.
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Talking about fighting methods as passive or aggressive is confusing and gives the wrong impression. All attacking methods are aggressive. Even indiret meothods. There is nothing passive about intending to punch someone in the face, kick them in the knackers, or throw them to the ground. It is just a question of how you get there.
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Traditional systems like Tai Ji, Baji and Xing Yi are both external and internal (fight training and qigong training). They use both direct and indirect techniques. Traditional training is neither soft nor gentle looking. It is tough and rough. Of course many Taji schools these days could not be considered combative as they only do forms and focus on the health aspects.
Just few thoughts.
BBK
Hi Oso,
Oops… I swear it’s the burbon, man, it’s the burbon. :o
But then again I could easily get lost in America (shame on me being from the land of the Thirsty Traveller). :eek: So Asheville, eh?
Warm regards
Robert
Michael: give my your address. Although, I’m not going to send you a Red Stripe. I’ve got to do better than that. Every had a Barleywine style ale or a Scottish Wee Heavy ?
Robert
#1 it’s Bourbon.
#2
AVL:
[QUOTE=Oso;737091]Michael: give my your address. Although, I’m not going to send you a Red Stripe. I’ve got to do better than that. Every had a Barleywine style ale or a Scottish Wee Heavy ?
Robert
#1 it’s Bourbon.
#2
AVL:
;)[/QUOTE]
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the direction and the spelling lesson. So I am going to share with you what my good friend Mantid1 had shared with me his ultimate internal+external style’s secret training tape (for free)!
This is top secret stuff, you understand so … hush…
Ultimate Secret Style Training of All Time
Now, remember this stuff is too deadly for the street so once you learned this you must - forgeta bout it!
Yo, teachers leave the kids alone (what music group is that?)
Warm regards
Robert