WHAT??? you mean you don’t believe in the Force?
tsk, tsk…Canadians…I guess I shouldn’t expect any more…
and, it’s Pink Floyd.
but, it seems the young jedi is not satisfied with our answers…
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;736989]Styles are different expressions of the same energies. 
Heed Oso’s advice about a good teacher. I would train with the best teacher regardless of what he taught, EVEN TKD!! :D[/QUOTE]
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, please…not TKD!!!
actually, somewhere around here, i have a yellow belt i got from a guy that in retrospect, was a good TKD teacher…though that was long ago, in a universe far, far away.
My personal view on Internal/External is that every style starts out being external and evolves to internal. When moves are first studied and practiced they are usually unbalanced, uncoordinated, and performed with tension and resistance (in the muscles/tendons) from not being accustomed to moving in such a fashion. As time goes on and you do the move over and over and over again you develop the proper conditioning and you become more efficient with your moves. If you fight, you MUST do this or you become tired after 1 or 2 minutes of continuous fighting and you can’t ‘stay alive’.
Example: When first learning to punch, students usually have stiff shoulders, bad posture, try to add too much power (creating resistance), and lack any type of waist movement. As time passes and they’ve thrown the same punch thousands of times they begin to relax the shoulders, they realize they tire quickly with trying to tighten the arm muscles, and begin to incorporate the waist for more power. Eventually they learn to develop power with the entire body behind a strike creating even more power.
When I began Taijiquan and Xingyiquan I kept hearing - “internal, internal, the moves are supposed to be internal”. No matter how slow or soft you perform a style it takes repetition of movement and more repetition of movement, to build strength, conditioning, and become relaxed enough to internalize it. A Taijiquan practioner that only does forms can call ‘Peng’ all they want in the front arm, but if they never train any type of resistance then the tendons will not be strong enough to deflect or ward off anything but a tuna sandwich. External leads to Internal, no matter the style. That’s my thinking.
7-Star Praying Mantis Internal
I have been taught that 7-Star Mantis is perhaps the most rigid of all Northern Mantis styles. Yet it is classified as an internal style because of how the Chi should flow. What most internal styles have in common is how thier Chi Gung is practiced. Usually, the muscles of the upper extremities are relaxed throughout thier movements during the exercise; thereby training the energy to flow internally independent from muscular exertion. In some internal styles like 7-Star Mantis, the energy is released at the final release of air in the lungs (at the end of the exhale), which creates a short subtle snap before the arms are completely extended. Whereas in most external styles, the Chi Gung is practiced with their muscles in the upper extemities slightly or completely tensed; training the energy to travel within the muscles, (anatomically an external channel). Both internal and external styles have “rigid and soft” attacks. However, these types of attacks has nothing to do with what makes an internal or external style. In simple terms, its how the Chi is cultivated and used within the style, which classifies whether it is external or internal. I hope this helped!
Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.
[QUOTE=hokfumantis;737362] In simple terms, its how the Chi is cultivated and used within the style, which classifies whether it is external or internal. I hope this helped![/QUOTE]
This is the most accurate statement yet. I never seen anything soft about a good Hsingi or Baqua fighter.
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;737368]Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;737368]Qi should flow naturally guys or you have a little problem called DEATH. All living things have qi. It has nothing to do with martial arts other than the living thing.[/QUOTE]
yea!
qi happens.
the number one thing killing chinese martial arts in america is the shroud of mystery and hoopajoo that people want to surround it with.
Aeturnal, i hope you have a good experience if you try out Master Su’s classes. I think you’ll find some good kung fu. Let the question of ‘internal vs. external’ go for now. If you stick with it long enough, have an open mind yet aren’t a sucker…you’ll find out for yourself.
[QUOTE=RandyBrown;737290]My personal view on Internal/External is that every style starts out being external and evolves to internal. External leads to Internal, no matter the style. That’s my thinking.[/QUOTE]
I think you come closest to the heart of the matter. My sifu says much the same thing. The potential is there, however, many people, even black belts never truly “get” the internal side of things. Internal is the deeper understanding of movement and biomechanics, as “known” by your own mind/body connection. Some people can never make that connection, either through injury, stress, mental blocks etc…
Of course some styles have forms, excercises, whatever that help you make that mind/body connection more easily…Some people, no matter what the style are able to make that connection more intuitively.
Yinyang Gangrou
Here’s a post that I find quite interesting with regard to the internal Vs extrnal differences:
Before I further address this in my next post I would like to share some thoughts about my understanding of Chinese pugilistic anatomy first.
When it comes to the earthly physical body, it’s Gang (rigidity - fire) and Rou (fluidity - water) not Ying Yang used in the case of celestial bodies such as Sun, Moon, and Stars. I don’t think someone in this day and age will tell me that human body has nothing to do with carbohydrate (fire and water). The Yin Yang attribute (not Qi) in the physical body is Yang Qi (vital energy) and Yin Xue (blood). From the perspective of blood, this relationship is like master/teacher/commander and slave/student/troop. From the perspective of Qi, the relationship is like mother and son (Muzi). These relationships are there every single second that one is alive. BTW this I believe is what Jake alluded to. Unless you don’t own a physical body, then you don’t need to worry about Yin Yang Gang Rou. Now if you do have a physical body and you are about to do a physical activity, then all these “internal” stuff are of importance IMHO.
When it comes to the physical body from Chinese martial arts rather then a medical perspective, it is about the attributes of Gang Rou. In Chinese worldview, a human body consists of 8 Gang and 12 Rou which reflects the number (20) representing Liang Yi (two archetypes - yinyang) which is commonly and erroneously known as Taiji. The 8 odd vessels of the body correspond to the 8 Gang and the 12 paired meridians correspond to the 12 Rou. The 12 meridians (6 yang and 6 yin) are connected to Wu Cang (5 yin organs) and Liu Fu (6 yang organs) where the Qi Xue constantly flows through with a timed schedule. Similar to plants and animals behavioral responses to the changes of the seasons of the year, the meridian becomes “active” during the 12 Shi (a period of 2 hours) of the day alternately. For example the Gull bladder meridian will be most active during 11 p.m. to 1 a.m.; while Heart meridian will be most active during 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. This BTW is where the centerline theory came from IMHO. When the meridians and organs are functioning properly, they will produce surplus Qi which will flow into and “store” in the Ren and Du vessels and when the meridians and organs are deficient, the Qi from the Ren Du vessels will be returning to the system to compensate the deficiency. For martial arts and spiritual meditation practice, it is the Qi that is in the Ren and Du vessels that matters. That’s Qi flow for martial arts in a nutshell. Now this is the reason that 8 rigids and 12 fluids as a theory is so important in Mantis and my believe that mantis literally is as internal as if not more so than any other MA claims.
Mantis108
Food for Thought
Sometimes when people say “internal” they refer to strictly mental practice, such as qigong. Other times, people mean “physical internal” which refers more to training the mind to coordinate the body in a way that’s more efficient. Generally, when I use the word “internal” I’m talking about “physical internal.” The benefits of the efficiency of physical internal training generally include both greater power/effectiveness and reduced energy spent.
Internal principles can be applied to any style. However, the people practicing or creating a particular style may place a higher or lower value on cultivating internal principles. This is why some styles are said to be “internal” and others “external.” It’s not that the styles themselves are more internal. “Internal styles” are just made and practiced by people who want to focus their practice more on internal principles. Ultimately though, all internal principles can be applied to any style.
Given that any style can be an “internal style,” here are some tell-tale signs of practice techniques that are generally associated with learning internal principles (regardless of style):
-
Slow practice. Practicing slowly allows you to analyze every movement in enough detail that you can fine-tune very small movements and positions that might go completely unnoticed otherwise.
-
Few, small, simple forms. Emphasis on details means your focus is on body movements and coordinations more than complete applications. Therefore, memorizing many applications contained in many lengthy forms is counterproductive. So styles that emphasize learning internal principles generally include relatively fewer forms with relatively fewer applications.
-
Simple movements. The movements practiced tend to be fairly simple and straightforward, the sorts of movements that are somewhat universal, such as a few basic punches, a few basic kicks, etc.
-
No set applications. Ultimately, internal principles lead a person to respond automatically to the opponent’s movements in a natural way, based on the body movements and coordinations practiced. The result is that an application/technique emerges naturally based on responses to the opponent, rather than the person deciding what application to use and then playing that application on the opponent. Practicing “externally” usually involves practicing applications rather than practicing body movements and coordinations. The advantage of practicing “externally” is that you can develop useful skills a lot faster–months rather than years.
Personally, I don’t think internal is necessarily better than external. It’s all subjective. If you want to be more effective quickly, external is the way to go. If you find it boring to practice very slowly and to analyze every little detailed movement, external is the way to go.
Just food for thought on this interesting thread.
[QUOTE=lapu_squared;737436]
Personally, I don’t think internal is necessarily better than external. It’s all subjective. If you want to be more effective quickly, external is the way to go. If you find it boring to practice very slowly and to analyze every little detailed movement, external is the way to go.
Just food for thought on this interesting thread.[/QUOTE]
I think that is why, as some martial artists age, they depend less on the external training and more on the internal. Physically, you can last longer and remain effective that way.
Thanks Mantis 108
As you were quoting bambooleaf saying "External Jing
External Jing is where the Jing is derived from the three external elements of musculature (jin), bones (gu) and skin (pi). This kind of jing is delivered through the exertion of the muscles, hardness of the bones and the toughness of the skin. It relies on hard physical impact and physical exertion to bring its effects to bear.
Internal Jing
Internal Jing is where Jing is derived from the three internal elements of essence (jing), vital energy (qi), and spirit (shen). This kind of jing is effected through the strengthening of the essence to provide the generation of qi which nourishes both the musculature, bones, organs and the mind which is the seat of the spirit.
The body’s essence (jing) is built up to ensure a plenteous supply, this is transformed into qi which nourishes and provides the vitality to the musculature, bones, organs and also the mind.
Qi in traditional Chinese medicinal theory is the basis of life in the body and its presence and relative volume determines the health and vitality of the body. Qi itself is directed by the Mind/Spirit which is itself dependent on qi for its mental capability."
You have explained in detail what I was saying about the flow of Chi (Qi). There are Kung Fu styles that has adopted the means to enhance the body’s essence (jing), to be transformed into Chi and manipulate this force =Gung (the power or force of Chi). Some styles concentrate on the external jing while others on the internal. I believe these approaches define a partcular style as such (Internal or External). We all know that “Chi happens”. Its all around us! Harnessing the power for health, protection and enlightment is another thing. Likewise, electricity is all around us in the air, but when it has been harnessed, its manefestation of power unquestionable. Stick your finger into an uncovered live socket! Get my drift?
Playing the devil’s advocate…
[QUOTE=lapu_squared;737436]Sometimes when people say “internal” they refer to strictly mental practice, such as qigong. Other times, people mean “physical internal” which refers more to training the mind to coordinate the body in a way that’s more efficient. Generally, when I use the word “internal” I’m talking about “physical internal.” The benefits of the efficiency of physical internal training generally include both greater power/effectiveness and reduced energy spent.[/quote]
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Lapu squared. I would think a strictly mental practice is more of a meditation than Qigong. Meditation is a deeper layer of Qigong practice IMHO. Personally, a simple breathe awareness exercise accomplishing slow movement (then explosive actions followe) and/or simple staying still while standing, sitting or lying down, wouldn’t qualify as Qigong by default. This however is most people’s definition of Qigong. If we establish that as the definitive description of Qigong, then a lot of the western sports would be qualify in the category of Qigong. So there has to be something, or a meaning if you will, other than a breathe awareness induced state of focus to distinguish Qigong from sports that share similar dynamics.
By the same token, your definition of “physical internal” would have to better qualify to make the distinction of being internal IMHO. Are we taking, body mechanics? If so how is it different from a baseball player who swing a bat or pitch a ball with the proper physcial body mechanics as dictacted by physcial principle. If he pay attention or rather mind the details of his body mechanics, wouldn’t it qualify as physcial internal already? Again, is there something or meaning other than minding or cultivating the body mechanics that differ that physical internal activity (ie an internal martial art) to sports.
Internal principles can be applied to any style.
The same truth can be said about body mechanics.
However, the people practicing or creating a particular style may place a higher or lower value on cultivating internal principles.
Not to neat picking but what is there to cultivate? Principles can be observed but not cultivated. If we are talking about something that can be cultivated (ie a fruit from a plant), it would be the employment of the principles to bring about the desired result. So are we talking simply minding of the principles or are we talking something transcendental?
This is why some styles are said to be “internal” and others “external.” It’s not that the styles themselves are more internal. “Internal styles” are just made and practiced by people who want to focus their practice more on internal principles. Ultimately though, all internal principles can be applied to any style.
What exactly, would the internal pricinples be and how different are they from another other sports? Body mechanics are body mechanics and focus is focus; why go through the whole charade if it is just simple as that? There has to be something more meaningful to it but what would that be?
Given that any style can be an “internal style,” here are some tell-tale signs of practice techniques that are generally associated with learning internal principles (regardless of style):
I got the impression that this statement would mean that if a Wing Chun or Tibetant Lama stylist incorporate internal principle into their styles then theirs would be internal styles? If that’s the case, then would then that make all the “internal styles” always the winners of any match? But how is it possible that styles like Wing Chun and Tibetant Lama could pretty much hold their own against the internal styles? Shouldn’t all the CMA styles be cross training by now?
- Slow practice. Practicing slowly allows you to analyze every movement in enough detail that you can fine-tune very small movements and positions that might go completely unnoticed otherwise.
The same process can happen in all Kung Fu style. Now whether the Sifu taught in this manner is another thing.
- Few, small, simple forms. Emphasis on details means your focus is on body movements and coordinations more than complete applications. Therefore, memorizing many applications contained in many lengthy forms is counterproductive. So styles that emphasize learning internal principles generally include relatively fewer forms with relatively fewer applications.
Well, Wing Chun comes into mind right away. Right now, I am focusing on 3 forms of my style (lanjie, Bazhou, wooden dummy) would my mantis be qualify for that?
- Simple movements. The movements practiced tend to be fairly simple and straightforward, the sorts of movements that are somewhat universal, such as a few basic punches, a few basic kicks, etc.
If we focus only on 8 or 12 simple single combinations in Tanglang (ie one step three punches , yuanyang jiao, etc), wouldn’t it more or less the same as you outline here?
- No set applications. Ultimately, internal principles lead a person to respond automatically to the opponent’s movements in a natural way, based on the body movements and coordinations practiced. The result is that an application/technique emerges naturally based on responses to the opponent, rather than the person deciding what application to use and then playing that application on the opponent. Practicing “externally” usually involves practicing applications rather than practicing body movements and coordinations. The advantage of practicing “externally” is that you can develop useful skills a lot faster–months rather than years.
By that, I take it you meant no 2 men drills or sparring as internal practice? But the same result (natural responses) can be obtain through Judo, Ju Jitsu, Boxing MMA type of sports. So there is no really “advantage” of internal over external there is it?
Personally, I don’t think internal is necessarily better than external. It’s all subjective. If you want to be more effective quickly, external is the way to go. If you find it boring to practice very slowly and to analyze every little detailed movement, external is the way to go.
Just food for thought on this interesting thread.
I agreed but I would think there is something you touched on and meant to say but seems to have been burried in your post there while making an argument for “physical internal” IMHO.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Hi Hokfumantis,
[QUOTE=hokfumantis;737717]As you were quoting bambooleaf saying "External Jing
External Jing is where the Jing is derived from the three external elements of musculature (jin), bones (gu) and skin (pi). This kind of jing is delivered through the exertion of the muscles, hardness of the bones and the toughness of the skin. It relies on hard physical impact and physical exertion to bring its effects to bear.
Internal Jing
Internal Jing is where Jing is derived from the three internal elements of essence (jing), vital energy (qi), and spirit (shen). This kind of jing is effected through the strengthening of the essence to provide the generation of qi which nourishes both the musculature, bones, organs and the mind which is the seat of the spirit.
The body’s essence (jing) is built up to ensure a plenteous supply, this is transformed into qi which nourishes and provides the vitality to the musculature, bones, organs and also the mind.
Qi in traditional Chinese medicinal theory is the basis of life in the body and its presence and relative volume determines the health and vitality of the body. Qi itself is directed by the Mind/Spirit which is itself dependent on qi for its mental capability."
You have explained in detail what I was saying about the flow of Chi (Qi). There are Kung Fu styles that has adopted the means to enhance the body’s essence (jing), to be transformed into Chi and manipulate this force =Gung (the power or force of Chi). Some styles concentrate on the external jing while others on the internal. I believe these approaches define a partcular style as such (Internal or External). We all know that “Chi happens”. Its all around us! Harnessing the power for health, protection and enlightment is another thing. Likewise, electricity is all around us in the air, but when it has been harnessed, its manefestation of power unquestionable. Stick your finger into an uncovered live socket! Get my drift?[/QUOTE]
You are most welcome. I think there is merit in Bamboo Leaf’s post but at the same time I would think there should be a caveat about the quote that I made. While it gives an interesting and quite descriptive view about external and internal power generation, which is of course one of the most important issue (pun intended) surronding the debate, it also perpetuates the polarized perspectives of Kung Fu practice. Frankly, that doesn’t nothing more than creating a rift in the Kung Fu community in the long run IMHO. Having said that I don’t think that is Bambboo Leaf’s intention. Personally, I work towards a unified theory of Kung Fu practice. So to me there is no such a thing as this style is internal and that style is external. You have one body and one truth should apply. It is more important in my mind to first have a holistic approach to make sure we have a pragmatic practice regardless of style. We can then go beyond the expression of the human body through combative form and perhaps even transcendent into a more spiritual realm.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Internal vs External?
[QUOTE=mantis108;737962]Hi Hokfumantis,
While it gives an interesting and quite descriptive view about external and internal power generation, which is of course one of the most important issue (pun intended) surronding the debate, it also perpetuates the polarized perspectives of Kung Fu practice. Frankly, that doesn’t nothing more than creating a rift in the Kung Fu community in the long run IMHO. Warm regards
Mantis108[/QUOTE]
While I agree with your intentions, I don’t understand why there should be a rift. If there is, it is because there is a mis-understanding of the essense behind internal & external gung. From the above postings we saw how this is possible. As I have said before, “soft & hard” methods of attacks are in all Kung Fu styles. Some people seem to confuse these attacking methods or other physical applications with the principles of internal or external gung. The two is not like Star Wars (Dark force against the Light force). The use of one gung is not more superior than the other. Its about how the Chi gung is executed or applied. Fu Jow Pai (Tiger Claw) is commonly known as an external system. No one would argue that this style is inferior. It has a reputation that speaks for itself.
In a circuit there are positive and negetive charges. Without them both there is not charge. This is the Yin/Yang principle of Chi. While one gung is called external it is not totally absent from the internal vice versa. In my opinion, education of jing and Chi Gung is the key in unifying such a rift. Knowledge indeed is power!
Thanks again!
Mantis108:
I apologize. It seems my post was too vague and caused confusion. Too much pompous, “holier than thou” BS surrounds internal martial arts, and the people who preach it usually use deliberately vague or confusing language that can’t be fully understood. It’s sort of like abusing Chi as the answer to all questions. (It usually means they don’t know what they’re talking about, or if they do, they just don’t want to tell you.) So, I apologize if my post sounded too vague. I’ll try to clarify with some more specifics here.
Yes, I agree with you that meditation is part of the “mental practice” I was reffering to.
Yes, internal martial arts principles can be applied to many activities having nothing to do with martial arts, including baseball. You can apply these principles to walking, opening or closing doors, lifting heavy objects, and countless other boring activities, in addition to martial arts. That’s why style doesn’t really matter–Wing Chun or otherwise. For a more concrete example, there is only one most efficient movement to generate power by moving an arm forward against an opposing force. That method is what it is, regardless of why the arm is being moved forward–moving forward to punch, to push a door open, to move a heavy object, etc.
Yes, ultimately “physical internal” does come down to body mechanics. But then again, external kung fu practice also comes down to body mechanics, too. What makes internal different from external is that the focus is less on physical conditioning and more on mental control of the body. Take power generation for example. External practice focuses primarily on building muscles and conditioning the body for endurance and toughness. Internal practice focuses primarily on coordinating many very small movements so that bones and joints are the most important element used in generating power, and the muscles are used primarily for guidance of the bones and joints. So (more concrete example), if I were to train with a focus on external kung fu, I would practice punching a bag as hard and as often as possible, I would do conditioning exercises, I would lift weights, and I might do some iron body training. Or, if I were to train with a focus on internal kung fu, then I would first and foremost find a teacher with knowledge of internal principles, then I would practice very basic movements and stances very slowly to try to maintain a very precise level of control over every angle my bones and joints make until these unusual body coordinations become second nature to me. As you can see, these are very different ways to practice. The end goal is the same–more power. The way there is just different.
So why practice internal vs. external? Simple: Different pro’s and con’s. Go the external route and you’ll become more effective a lot sooner, but you may peak somewhere in your 20’s or (maybe) 30’s. Go the internal route and it may take you 5 or 10 years to catch up with the external guys, but you’ll peak in your 50’s. If you already like lifting weights and conditioning, external is the way to go. If you’re small and not muscular and never will be, then internal is a great way to generate power despite your physical limitations. If you enjoy lots of fast, rigorous physical exercise when you practice, go the external route. If you prefer very slow, thoughtful movements where your mind has to concentrate on every little angle at all times, go the internal route. If that sounds boring or tedious to you, go external.
If a Wing Chun person incorporated internal principles into Wing Chun, then yes, Wing Chun would be an “internal style.” However, an internal version of Wing Chun would also look quite different. As for who wins a match, it’s the best fighter. An external guy can beat an internal guy, and vice versa. Regardless of how you practice, different people will have varying levels of skill.
The 4 “tell-tale signs” I wrote are just that, not a definition of internal practice. If you do all of the 4, it doesn’t mean your practicing internal martial arts. But, if you practice internal martial arts, you’re almost certainly doing all of the 4. Put in a more general way, when you know how to do something, it’s easy to look like you’re doing it (because you are), but if you don’t know how to do something, you can still sometimes look like you’re doing it (even though you aren’t). More concretely, my 10-year-old likes to play with his plastic swords. It doesn’t mean he knows how to use a real sword. But, someone who knows how to use a real sword almost certainly also knows how to play with plastic swords.
As for #4 (“no set applications”) that’s a tough one to explain. I didn’t mean to imply that there is no 2-man drills or sparring in internal practice. There are two ways to approach applications/techniques: (1) You learn an application, then when you’re in a sparring situation you try to think of what application to use at that moment. (2) You learn basic body movements (not an application), then you learn basic responses/reactions to the feeling of an opponent’s movements, then when you’re in a sparring situation you just respond to the opponent’s movements using your own practiced body movements, and the result just happens to be an application. The advantage of #1 is that you can learn a useful application faster. The disadvantage is that it’s very difficult to think of what application to use next in a fast-changing situation. The advantage of #2 is that you have an infinite variety of variations and can change at any point in the application to adjust to what the opponent is doing (without having to really think much about it). The disadvantage is that it takes a very long time and a lot of work to get there. (I personally am not there yet, although my teacher most certainly is.)
I hope this offers more concrete examples than my first post. If not, contact me if you’re ever in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I’ll be happy to show you what I mean by any of these points. It’s often a whole lot easier to understand when you get the “feeling” rather than just listening to words.
Hi Hokfu Mantis and Lapu Squared,
Thank you for the detailed clarification and reply. I really appreciate it. I was just playing devils advocate. It would be great to meet up even just for dim sum.
Warm regards
Mantis108