Making Chi Sao/Drills Real

Hi all,

For this post to make sense maybe you will need to read the thread I just posted called “Fighting Definitions”. Sorry for any inconvenience.

In my experiece, the ability to read and control range is a vital skill when it comes to any kind of match fighting (please read the previously mentioned post if you are unsure of what I mean). The drill outlined by Terence is also a great way to start developing this skill, keeping in mind that it is a skill to be developed and not a strategy to depend on - and yet still an essential ingredient in the overall game. It is, coupled with timing skills and line awareness a necessary ability to [be able to] setup an efficient entry against a moving opponent.

Regarding the pummeling drill vs chi sao I would say there is a distinct difference in that the positions in the pummeling drill are not dependant upon the opponent to be active in any way, once we’re there (in those positions) the positional relationship can be “locked in” (by us) to a much higher degree with the use of over- and underhooks then can the chi sao positions (thereby we are not dependent on the opponent to do anything specific for us to maintain that control). IMO the drills are very different in character. Chi sao can be used to develop certain attributes while the pummeling drill has more of the 1-to-1 relationship with the actual in-fight application.

“Chi sao can be used to develop certain attributes while the pummeling drill has more of the 1-to-1 relationship with the actual in-fight application.”

***NOT TRUE…anything can come out of chi sao if you want it to. It doesn’t have to be limited to any rules…you use the rules to learn concepts and principles, such as the centerline…certain concepts about energy flow and forward attack…

shifting and sidestepping footwork on both attack and defense…certain specific moves/techniques to create openings so that specific attacks can be implemented - such as…

palm strikes, punches, lop da, (grab/pull/guide, and hit - using two hands simultaneously)…pak da, gum sao, lan sao, huen sao…po pai…quan sao, garn sao, etc. etc… and how to respond to those moves with double handed defense…

you learn sensitivity so as to be able to deflect, redirect, or possibly even avoid an attack - and with movement…

you’re also learning distance issues, ie.- regular double arm chi sao…long arm double arm chi sao (sometimes referred to as kiu sao)…which means distance issues now provide more kicking opportunities…from regular you can sense when you’re in range to use elbow or knee strikes…and again - all of this also brings in shifting and sidestepping issues/techniques as well, etc…

as drills at first…meaning…all of the above is done cooperatively…then spontaneously…

and then from apart - and you’re sparring (wing chun vs. wing chun)…

then you can take virtually all of the above and start working the principles, strategies, and techniques into completely different scenarios…first as cooperative drills…then semi-cooperative…then spontaneous…

against boxing, kickboxing, karate, Muay Thai, grappling etc…

and if you find that you want to add certain things to your game (ie.- I’ve added some boxing moves and wrestling into the mix…others have added some BJJ, or whatever)…

FINE.

You’re in a position to do that - because you’ve mastered the basics, and hopefully more than just the basics of the wing chun game (ie.-close quarter infighting that emphasizes centerline/central lines, straight line striking, straight low kicks that emphasize the short range, and so on…(fill in the blanks)…

and then there’s some wing chun systems that have a parallel arm chi sao that starts from front stances with just one arm from each fighter touching (and the same with cross arm chi sao)…first as cooperative drill…then “at random”…with longer range kicks (ie.- a rear front kick or rear roundhouse kick)…then staring from completely apart…

and on and on.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;757334]But if you want an example, here’s a very simple one: to teach the trainee to use range/position as defense (the first of the five lines of defense), have the trainee face a training partner that is trying to hit him and tell the trainee his goal or objective is to keep just outside of the opponent’s range, and not try to block or duck or otherwise deal wtih the attacks. Have the training partner attack realistically (you don’t need to go full power at first, maybe 50%, but amp it up fairly quickly). You do the drill, then stop, point out things the trainee was doing well, others not so well (it’s called coaching), and have him do it again.
[/QUOTE]

I remember one job I worked at a health club I made friends with a 5th degree BB ATA tae kwon do guy. I trained at his school a little while. They used to do a drill that was a lot like yours. They would start in a side horse stance. When the opponent would initiate a techique, the drill was to move just outside of range of the technique, and then initiate a counter technique to get in and close the gap and score. Actually most of what I remember about their whole point fighting approach was like that. It made for some very entertaining point fighting little slap matches.

Oh, and LOL at the full power shadowboxing. You don’t go full power with a technique when someone is out of range. You go full power when thy are in range.

Do you have a “Dodgeball” team that can beat Ben Stiller’s too?

For this post to make sense maybe you will need to read the thread I just posted called “Fighting Definitions”.

The definitions are OK. I can’t really see them helping much in the anti-theoretician jihad presently underway, though. The confusion/kerfuffle is not about the differences between match fighting, defense or the rest.

In my experiece, the ability to read and control range is a vital skill when it comes to any kind of match fighting (please read the previously mentioned post if you are unsure of what I mean). The drill outlined by Terence is also a great way to start developing this skill,

I agree it’s a good skill to have. I disagree that the drill discussed is a good way to start developing the skill in the context of learning to become an effective fighter. Too far divorced from what you are trying to do in a fight, as Terence/Matt claims chi sao to be.

They used to do a drill that was a lot like yours.

I think that’s actually a better drill than T/M’s. Better if you didn’t do it from a static stance but moving around, and attacks performed at random intervals so that timing was required. Rodney King, for example, drills a step back to avoid the low round kick, stepping straight back in to counterpunch.

Regarding the pummeling drill vs chi sao I would say there is a distinct difference in that the positions in the pummeling drill are not dependant upon the opponent to be active in any way,

Disagree. The pummelling drill starts off as a cooperative drill where both participants HAVE to be active. You could clamp onto the guy for all you’re worth and stall, but that makes the drill pointless. The positions might not require the guy to be active, but the drill itself sure does.

You could say the same about chi sao. If the other guy doesn’t move, the drill falls apart.

Chi sao can be used to develop certain attributes while the pummeling drill has more of the 1-to-1 relationship with the actual in-fight application.

That’s valid to some degree, though it doesn’t have to be that way with chi sao as Victor said.

Why do you think pummelling has a closer relationship with the fight application that chi sao? IYO, is chi sao worthwhile or a waste of time?

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;757429]Why would I read ‘post above mine’ again? It gives a guidline/process, but no specific drills (which is what I asked you to give). Anyone can name a ‘process’, can pick those up in a few minutes off the net, read a book, etc. But it was victor’s drills that you were saying weren’t realistic, so was curious if you had some that were more ‘realistic’.
[/QUOTE]

The process tells you how to create any drill, provided of course, that a person knows how something is really applied.

And, to comment on the drill you lprovided afterward, Anerlich said pretty much what I would say. That isn’t a realistic ‘fight drill’ at all! Unless your fight plan is to avoid fighting alltogether..

I sometimes wonder . . . look, like with any fighting skill, that is not all you will do. It is one element – using range/position as defense; there may come a time and place where you will use it. As I said, it is a very basic drill. If it does come into play, it will be momentary. And this skill will – as I said – be used as a basis to develop others, like how to manuever if you are on the outside to get an safe entry (to the inside), which will be difficult to teach if the trainee keeps getting hit. :wink: Funny thing is, I’ve seen some really good wrestlers and boxers use the same sort of drill to help teach offensive/defensive movement.

Also, if your drill involves no contact, what does it matter if the person attacking usues 2% or 100% power?

Because the trainnee needs to learn how to move when dealing with someone moving realistically – quickly and powerfully, and while he may be out of range, that can change very suddenly, quickly, and with devastating consequences.

Why would someone want to practice dancing around thier opponent just outside of striking range and not engage?

For any number of reasons, like they might want to look for opportunites or they may want to choose the time of entry (as opposed to letting the opponent choose) or they might have been stunned and want to buy recovery time or they may want to survey the opponent/situation, etc. If you look at good fighters, they all use range as a defense and use it to set up offense (sound familiar? that’s lien sil die da, link defense to bring in striking - not the commonly misinterpreted “simultaneous block and strike”).

Wouldn’t they just prefer to run away as Anerlich said? This doesn’t sound like anything that should be used in a fight, unless you are training to not fight…

As I said, this is a basic drill, and from it the trainee will learn some useful things, how to move on the outside (unpredicatbly), how to use range as the first line of defense (later he’ll learn what to do if that is breached, the second line of defense), he’ll learn how to optimally use his body to move (being on the balls of the feet, balance, etc.), those things not to do (stand there in front of the opponent, for example), etc. All that will be used in fighting. At least, we use those things in fighting. For us, we are either on the outside looking to get in or we are on the inside shutting him down.

[QUOTE=anerlich;757394]Now THAT’s unrealistic. You don’t want to ingrain the habit of hanging just outside range while someone is attacking. Some trainees might even think this is a good idea when someone is trying to take their head off. Either run away, or bridge the gap, crash the line and attack, or do some effective response drills like Rodney King’s “Rim Shot” drills.
[/QUOTE]

It’s a very basic drill to teach the trainee some things, most importantly being able to control the range and position on the outside – and these are precursors to “bridging the gap” or crashing the line. The idea is not to just “hang on the outside” forever but learn how to keep the outside if you want to (for however long you want to) and how to use the outside range defensively. Because if you can’t use it defensively, you won’t be able to use it offensively (as you’ll keep getting popped). Once the trainee has acquired that skill (can perform it comfortably and reliably), there is no more need for that drill - so we move onto to the next thing which will build off this drill.

This is similar to doing a basketball drill where you dribble around the court and your partner is trying to take the ball away from you. Are you just going to keep dribbling around forever on the court in a game? Of course not. But the skill of being able to move around the court with the ball without having it taken is one you will use all the time. Will doing that drill develop the “bad habit” of always just dribbling around aimlessly? Of not breaking away and charging the basket? Of course not. But you can’t learn to break away if you can’t keep the ball away from the opposing player.

Of course, a trainee could just pick this up in sparring (just like the basketball player could pick it up playing the game), but so many other things are going on in sparring – so by giving the beginning trainee this drill, they are able to focus on developing that particular skill, in this case keeping control of the outside and using range as defense. That skill will be used in fighting.

I’ll repeat my question about the pummelling drill. Channel Matt T if you wish. Can’t understand how you could let that slip under your anti-theoretician radar. Or is it too hard? I have some ideas of my own, but I’d like to hear yours. Or Matt’s. Will I be able to tell which?

I am sorry but I missed your question the first time (it’s easy to do that amid all the snide remarks). The simple answer is that pummeling is something you will actually do in a fight (in a tight clinch): fight to get the underhooks. And you are practicing it exactly as you will do it in fighting with your training partner genuinely resisiting your attempts to get the underhooks, and fighting to get his own underhooks. I’m sure you know that pummeling is more than just arm-swimming. So you get the 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence.

I am not saying chi sao is a bad platform for learning some WCK skills. But it is unrealistic drill (both you and your partner aren’t behaving realistically) and so can’t develop realisitic skills. And there isn’t that 1-to-1-to-1 correspondence.

“I am not saying chi sao is a bad platform for learning some WCK skills. But it is unrealistic drill (both you and your partner aren’t behaving realistically) and so can’t develop realistic skills.” (TN)

***COMPLETELY FALSE…and once again a strong indication that the person saying this has never really learned chi sao…and especially how to take all those wing chun skills (which he tries to minimize with the phrase “some WCK skills”)…

developed in chi sao (and other related drills, such as pak sao/pak da…bong sao/lop sao,etc.)…AND MAKE THEM APPLICABLE from outside the basic chi sao platform.

Analogous to pummeling.

You take those skills/techniques/strategies learned in the pummelling “drill” and you activate/transfer them to something more spontaneous and live.

Bottom line:

THE GUY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SERIOUS WING CHUN KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL…that’s why he has such a low opinion of the VALUE of chi sao.

Let’s get that clear, once again…

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;757562]"
THE GUY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SERIOUS WING CHUN KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL…that’s why he has such a low opinion of the VALUE of chi sao.[/QUOTE]

I think his opinion of chi sao is based on getting out there and mixing it up with a wide variety of different fighters. Many of us who have done this have reached similar conclusions. Since you haven’t done a whole lot in terms of mixing it up with good people from the outside, you really aren’t qualified to make a conclusion one way or another.

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;757558]It’s a very basic drill to teach the trainee some things, most importantly being able to control the range and position on the outside – [/QUOTE]

Speaking of controlling the range and maintaining outside postition, this guy shows how to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyokcLPl8wM

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;757334]But if you want an example, here’s a very simple one: to teach the trainee to use range/position as defense (the first of the five lines of defense), have the trainee face a training partner that is trying to hit him and tell the trainee his goal or objective is to keep just outside of the opponent’s range, and not try to block or duck or otherwise deal wtih the attacks. Have the training partner attack realistically (you don’t need to go full power at first, maybe 50%, but amp it up fairly quickly). You do the drill, then stop, point out things the trainee was doing well, others not so well (it’s called coaching), and have him do it again.

Later, you can add other elements to the drill.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I think this is a very good drill. All you would have to do is restrict the attacker to kicks and you would be describing to the preverbial “T” the very first SanSao drill Moy Yat ever showed me.

I actually confirmed with some of my older classmates Moy Yat used to teach these types of drills as early as 1969 in Hong Kong - without padding. Thank goodness for me that some of my other classmates introduced pads to the class and drastically shortening the “ow ow ow ow” phase for later.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m sticking up for his teachings, but when Victor talks about what he learned in his class. Very rarely do I not scratch my head and have yet another “WTF is he talking about” question for my similarly puzzled classmates who used to train in the same era as him. :slight_smile:

“Since you haven’t done a whole lot in terms of mixing it up with good people from the outside, you really aren’t qualified to make a conclusion one way or another.” (mighty mouse)

***TOTAL AND COMPLETE BULL5HIT ON YOUR PART, mouse…

Since you have no idea who I’ve sparred with over the years - or what their skill levels were/are.

And furthermore, before you even go back into your “prove it to me because my demands for people to show their credentials and my judgment about those credentials is all important” routine…

take careful note that I don’t give a rat’s a55 about YOUR demands for credentials and YOUR judgments…and YOUR pseudo-superiority personality disorders…

Because, amoungst other reasons (like for example - who the f..ck are you?)…it’s already been established MANY TIMES OVER on this forum that you know next to nothing about wing chun also.

So who cares what problems you had making wing chun work?

NOBODY.

SO I’M GOING TO REPEAT THIS…TERENCE HAS DEMONSTRATED ONCE AGAIN THAT HIS KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL IN WING CHUN IS VERY LIMITED - AS EVIDENCED BY THE FACT THAT HE IS UNABLE TO GRASP EXACTLY WHAT THE BENEFITS OF CHI SAO AND OTHER DRILLS ARE.