MA masters deserve respect... why?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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(note: starting this new thread by moving [and changing] a message from another - this message is a repeat. Sorry Mantis108, am not including your reply, feel it would be presumptious of me.)

Why do Chinese MA masters expect respect? (such as gifts during visits, picking up tab at the restaurant, etc.) This question/topic is in response to Dachengdao’s statement that he was shocked at the amount of (dis)respect MA masters get in the US. (which I agree with in this context: students questioning teacher, changing techniques to suit their (mis)understanding, not working out hard [disrespects the whole school])

So, then, my point:

I’d met some successful and hardworking (and contributing to the community) proffessionals in my professional life… why does a MA master deserve more respect than these other people?

The only answer that makes sense to me is: because MA masters are wise. Is that really true? Not always. In fact, just the fact that many of them expect respect shows they are not all that wise.

Dachengdao, you do not agree with me, but you come from a culture that does not agree with me. All cultures have flaws (and all patriots are very good at bashing the flaws of other cultures and defending their own… not saying you’re like that).

Let’s take a hypothetical example: John, a doctor who’s worked hard all his life (as many doctors do), takes kung-fu lessons from a Chinese master, Chen. From the traditional Chinese perspective, John is expected to treat Chen in some special way, while Chen treats John like a regular person. Why is that? Is Chen necessarily wiser than John? Surgery isn’t wisdom, so we don’t really know… maybe, maybe not. Is Chen a better person than John? Don’t know that either. Did Chen work harder to get where he is? Probably not.

Then why do MA masters deserve respect over and above what other hard working people (of good character and integrity) do?

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reply

Ye Gor, I’m glad you started this new thread. Yes, we had ventured far off the topic of seminars and I feel this issue is important to think about and have open and honest discussions. Maybe I don’t agree with your view, but I’m definately keeping an open mind and am interested in seeing what others think about it. :slight_smile:

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Ye Gor,
Firstly, everyone deserves a basic level of respect. I think we can all agree on that. After that, It is my stance that respect on a higher level is earned, on both sides. It is said that it takes 7 years for the Master to know the student and vise-versa. This is because the cover of the book may not exactly represent the words inside. A person can be a great actor, be plastic on the outside, go through all the motions of being respectful and be something totally different on the inside.

I think a better comparison would be some tradesman rather than a doctor. I worked in a trade for 20 years in the pastry field and working under “Masters” of such a trade is almost exactly the same thing. This is more of day of old but I think still exists to some extent. Pastry Chefs keep secrets, hide their special techniques, recipies, etc. Very similar to MA Masters. To a degree, I believe this comes from a position of insecurity. When a level of Mastery has be reached and this person develops a good name, this insecurity dissolves.

I’ve met only a couple of Masters that have earned my highest respect. Both gave to me freely and without restraint. One was Vietnamese (Martial Arts) and the other Chinese (Qi Gong). I believe I have now found another and he is Chinese.

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It may not be a question of education or wiseness that is the respect factor but rather it may be a question of modernisation of society and the diminishment of traditional values of respect towards each other. In the past (even in the west) most skilled professionals were given certain amounts of respect. It is simple if you respect their skill or expertise then you give respect.

the propagation of gift-giving, money, etc…is a tradition passed …your teacher does not ‘have’ to teach you (in a traditional sense) it is his choice if you seem disrepctful then you do not deserve the teaching for you don’t value the skill as shown from the disrespect to his person (carrier of the skill/knowledge).

However in a modern gym commercial organisation if you are contracted and pay fees which your teacher requires for their living then alternative methods of respect may not be necessary. But then again if you don’t respect it why learn it, go elsewhere seeking.

True martial arts are hard to come buy, when you find it you’ll understand respect. True teachers are hard to find when you find them you’d cherish them. True masters are hard to find when you know them then respect shall be known.

cheers,.

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respect

I think a problem occurs when there isn’t a two way street with the respect.
some master i think go way overboard on it and i actually think some of them don’t deserve the respect they get because they are not what they portray.
I think the teacher should also respect the student, why should the student pick up the tab at the reataurant if the sifu knows the student is having financial difficulty and can’t really afford it?
Shouldn’t the teacher respect that and pay for his own? It isn’t about how much money you flash infront of your teacher, it is about how you respect the teacher, school and what you learn.
My shr-fu has picked up the tab many times, he helps the students with their tuition when they are having money problems.
I have seen many masters USE their students to do a variety of different things for them. they are not slaves, they are paying students.
I think if the teacher respects the studen then the student will have even more respect for the teacher over time but if the teacher doesn’t respect the student then the student will lose respect for the teacher over time.

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Ye Gor,
I’m glad to continue this conversation. This is a broad subject since everyone deserves a certain amount of respect, but why some more then others. It is a great shame that teachers in general do not get more respect then they do in the US, but that’s a whole other issue. The passing of knowledge is what makes a teacher regardless of the information the teacher should be gauged by their understanding of that information and their ability to pass it along to the next generation. The wise old men in many cultures, including early America, were respected for their wisdom and passed this on by telling stories. I’m sure there were some that told tall tails and got the same respect as those that spoke the truth. So do the MA master deserve more respect then masters of other fields, or do they just know how to get it?

(Yes, that was a joke.) I respect my teacher very much and he does not have to hurt me to get my respcet. Of course, he does, low stances long work outs lots of push ups, the pain never stops.

RibHit
fm

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Hello everyone!!
this is really an interesting threat. I guess, you can compare it to normal highschools:
I still go to school here in Germany. There was this international “Pisa-study” which was a comparism of the countries highschool student’s knowledge. Germany went VERY bad although we have a big special tradition of highschool-systems. Most interesting: Most of the countries which had a excelent result in the study, have in fact very strict school teachers. Japan for example: students have to show MUCH MORE respect to them than here in Europe. The teacher is much more an authority than here.
What I want to say is ,that you probably show much more effort in something you do, if you have much respect for your teacher, master etc.
I also believe that a real traditional Kung Fu school should be seen as a family. And your master is your father.
Anyway…this is my opinion to this.
Greets
TCS

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FROM OTHER THREAD…

Greetings..

I think that Woliveri has a point.. Masters are respected according to their deeds. I’m sure that each of us has seen both sides of the coin.. self-proclaimed masters that embarrass the art and others that, by their mere presence, evoke awe and inspiration. Westerners are pragmatists, we tend to say “show me, don’t tell me”.. I have been fortunate to train with several Masters that offered all that i could absorb, others that trifled with students as though they were a necessary nuisance.. you can imagine where my respect was placed.

That a Master would hide some aspects of their art is unfortunate.. My closest experience is with GrandMaster Chan Pui, he has chosen to fragment his teachings .. giving certain students/sifus differing pieces of the system and some pieces not given at all.. the end result is that the system will never be what it was.. the legacy of Chan Pui’s system will be fragmented and diluted, in fact, some of the system will be lost when he joins his ancestors.. In his own words “i make it easier for westerners to learn” (a value judgment not always rooted in accuracy). I have personally seen him change forms to suit the student’s ability to learn (or his impatience at the students progress).. in either case the system suffers.

Now, from my own perspective, the Master’s role is to promote the system he professes.. to ensure its survival, to enhance its reputation and, ultimately, to push the student beyond the Masters own abilities, then, the system prospers.. toward that end, if the Master chooses to bring it to a different culture, compromises of culture for both are to be expected. Respect, by western standards, may appear differently than that of Oriental standards.. yet be equal in the heart of the student. Would i protect the master with my life, yes!! If asked to submit to some absurd training practice, yes!! Offer my own costly professional services at no cost, absolutely!!.. but, in return i expect the Master to uphold the role of “Master”.. a bargain not always balanced.

Respect is indeed “earned”.. respect that is “expected” is shallow at its conception. By western standards respect is a two way street, a mutual acknowledgment.. the Master earns the student’s respect and likewise respects the student’s choosing to invest time, money and hard work into the Master’s system.. this is “balance”…

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well..

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all good points bob.

the whole problem lies in the american kwai chang kane mentality.
if i were one of these masters i would make people do things just to screw with people- i mean we pretty much ask for it i think- americans that is.
what i want to know though, is why we u.s. kung fuists copy so much of the chinese culture- many even using stupid sounding accents, i think if the answer is again respect or appreciation of another culture, then the ultimate kf school must have holes for toilets.

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Anyone that trains truly and hard everyday knows why MA masters deserve respect. They have walked the long road to mastery and a true practicioner knows that the journey has not been easy, requiring dedication, willpower and determination that have forged true skill (kung fu).

For every student that becomes a master, how many students will forever remain mediocre? How many students will stop training before reaching high levels of skill? Quite a lot.

Of course, slightly tangentially to this, people should note that the basic respect level expected out of people is a bit higher in the East than here in the West.

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Flem..

Greetings..

Your question is valid.. and one i’ve raised many times on this and other forums.. I sense that the “art” is not culture dependent, it is dependent on the will of the practicioner, whatever culture they represent.. We can labor over cultural concepts, yet.. the movements and energies involved know no language or culture.. Too much time is lost, too much confusion encountered whenever the cultures get lost in each other.. NOW, here’s where i will likely offend some folks.. When a Master brings his art to this country why does he expect westerners to adapt to his cultural concepts, his language nuances.. When i go to a foreign country i don’t expect them to learn my language and my ways to accommodate me.. If the aim is truly to teach westerners, learn our language.. tell us in ways we can understand.. remember, you came here.. if i go to China, my job is to learn the language, learn the culture so i can receive the instruction.. Again, the art is not culture dependent, respect the ground you stand on, respect the people you teach.. One might ask if i respect the Chinese Martial and philosophical culture.. absolutely!!! but, i can only respect it with a westerners mind, and then only if someone is willing to present it in a western context… even the Philosophy is applicable in any culture, if it weren’t it would just be a cultural idiosyncracy..

Do Masters deserve respect?.. If they ARE Masters, yes, absolutely.. But, then again, the Master that doesn’t return the respect he receives casts doubt on his title.. Above all else, a Master must represent his system honorably and sincerely.. To watch dedicated, hard training students being toyed with is a disgrace regardless of the discipline.. For me, personally, respect is first placed by reputation, then validated by the deeds of the Master.. or not..

Another concept recently bantered about is Loyalty.. that, like respect is a two way street.. A student that placed their loyalty with a certain Master, that works hard for that system, that respects that Master unquestionably.. has every right to expect the respect and loyalty of the Master as well. This is “balance”, it is the principle that supports the Arts we cherish. Without that balance you either have a dictatorship or a rebellion.. neither of which are healthy for a strong system..

Anyway, just “my” opinions, Be well.. be real..

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tc bob,

i am in complete ageement, but of course we come from similar backgrounds regarding ma. i don’t understand why we need to be chinese- so to speak
i wonder if this mentality is elsewhere WOLIVERI were there pastry students that adapted french accents or some other accent when you were with those masters in cooking?
i still think there are extraordinary masters, maybe simply because i want to believe that, i just don’t think there are as many as we think- afterall just claiming the title to me, is a sign of a lack of humility, thus a phony
well phony is the wrong word, i suppose some may think they are masters, hell maybe they are, i really just think there are more extraordinary people than the one’s i’ve met.

all of the things you stated about “two way street”. i get that, but it does not exist from what i’ve seen. perhaps 18 elders situation is different, but then again perhaps the relationship has yet to be put to the test.

i think you are also right about learning with a westerner’s mind. that is as it should be. it’s funny that so many choose to be “wanna be’s”- i just don’t understand that
more people need to realize that they look like “bruce leroy” .
maybe one day rodeo will get big in china and there will be a bunch of little cowboys running around trying to pretend they’re not just cowboys but american cowboys. lol
some of this may not make sense. this is a friends comp. for some reason mine won’t allow me to log on- and i’ve given up trying to get a response from kfo.

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Its pretty simple. If you want to learn somthing from someone and that person has knowledge and is putting in effort of their own to pass it on to you then they deserve your resopect whether they are chinese or not.
Looking at the MA master - doctor example. While the doctor is in a student relationship he should treat his teacher with respect. If for some reason the teacher became sick and needed the doctors advice and expertise then I’m sure he would/should show equal respect. However the doctor doesn’t deserve automatic respect in the MA class situation just because he is a doctor - its a context completely outside his field of expertise and he should have to prove himself just like any other student.

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norhternJump, are you saying that we should show respect (the ‘extra’ respect that I’m talking about) only to certain people in certain situations? MA master to doctor in a doctor’s office, and doctor to teacher at the dojo? Why? Why not be humble and give respect that all decent human beings deserve to everybody all the time? I CERTAINLY have heard A LOT of this kind of talk from ma literature and media. So why not walk the talk?

Also, in comment to some posts by TCB and flem (and maybe others): although I don’t mind a thread developing its own direction, the original question was: why do MA teachers deserve EXTRA respect? Anyway, threads have a life of their own, no big deal…

Here’s a situation I’ve witnessed before (and been guilty of myself!): a high-ranking kf teacher (master or not) is introduced to some people who meet over a dinner. Invariably, it’s like: “Here’s Bob, everybody, and this is Andy, and this is Master Chen, a famous kung-fu master from Someplace!” If Bob is a brain surgeon or a pioneering scientist, he’s still ‘just’ Bob. I would NEVER expect to hear an introduction like: “This is Bob, a great scientist!” I mean, Bob would become embarassed!

Is it true that in China, at least traditionally, hardcore kungfu students did just that - study kung fu? Whereas in US in this day and age, all kinds of people study kung fu, including those that have already walked their own long and hard road to some kind of accomplishment.

Dachengdao, will you contribute to this discussion? I think you may know more than anyone here about the traditional Master - student relationship. But now you’ve been in US for a couple of years… what do you think about some of the points made here? Like that respect is a “two way street”. What would that mean from a Chinese perspective?

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gifts for the master

A little addition:

It has been said that students (to show respect) bring little gifts when visiting their master at home. This is in China. It is an old tradition. In Russia, there is also an old tradition: when visiting anybody, people bring a little gift. It’s true, I’ve been there. A box of candy, or tea or some flowers. It’s simply in the culture and is part of the whole experience of visiting someone. There is no such tradition in the US, and americans are likely to interpret such an act as ‘kissing up’ or something similar.

Anyways, remember, it’s different ‘over there’.

Chinese MA masters should be mature enough to realise that it’s different over here, too. A lack of a gift has nothing to do with (dis)respect. All actions should be interpreted in the context of the actor’s culture, otherwise, where is the wisdom that MA masters are supposed to have?

Perhaps Chinese MA masters should show a little respect to this country’s culture and learn a bit about it before judging US students as disrespectful? But then again, there is a general feeling in China that their culture is deep, while that of US is shallow. This maybe the beginnings of disrespect (albeit subconscious!) of masters to student. Be careful. Respect begets respect, and the reverse is true likewise!

If a US student brings a gift to the master, it is a sign of wisdom on the student’s part (he/she learned enough about the Chinese culture to ‘do the right thing’). If a US student does not, and the Chinese master understands, that is a sign of wisdom on the part of the master, likewise.

If a Chinese student brings no gift, and the master does NOT worry about it… that’s true wisdom. The kind that ma is purported to teach… but is rarely seen.

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“But then again, there is a general feeling in China that their culture is deep, while that of US is shallow.”

US culture is some what hard to judge and deeper then it appears, since it is a make up of so many different cultures. Even though the US gets most of its influence from Europe there are a lot of other influences including Asian. Realistically it would be more American to accept other cultures as that is what make the US so deverse. Where I work there are at least five different cultural groups, and it has been my observation that people in general are the same, they just do things differently. I have never been asked to bring gifts or show anyone more respect, but I do. Do you not respect your teacher and their culture? Come to the US do it our way, or get out! All I can ask is that you speak the language. If I were to travel to another country I would not expect them to speak English on my behalf. As for cultural differences that is our way. I do believe that respect is a two way street and that includes respecting someone’s culture especially if you want to learn TCMA since it is more then just push ups. If you feel differently that is your right but you might as well join the local kickboxing school and give up Traditional Chinese Kung Fu.

RibHit
fm

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My sifus and I never expected that kind of thing of each other.

Countless times I’d try to do stuff for my sifu, only to have him reject because he knew that I was a starving student. Sometimes I’d literally twist his arm to do stuff for him.

I know this: I don’t expect students to fork over anything when they come see me.

As long as they pay their monthly tuition and show me the respect I’d show them, I’m more than satisfied.

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Ok, Dachengdao, that was pretty long and there are several points there.

First of all, it seems a little defensive, but I hope that’s not intentional, only seems that way.

Secondly, from your description it seems that you are the kind of master that most everybody on this board wishes to be studying from (in terms of character and integrity). Your character was never in question. Although some people in the discussion have obviously let off some steam from their bad experiences…

Thirdly, I don’t think anyone (certainly not me) thought that you were greedy because of the ‘pick up the tab’ example of respect. I took it just as that: a very common example of how Chinese students treat their ma teachers.

Which brings me back to my original question: do students of physics (or medicine, or music, or ballet) pick up the tab of their teacher? This is what Tainan Mantis indicated is the case in Taiwan, which obviously has Chinese roots.

Now, the example of someone coming to a pot-luck (sp?) emptyhanded AND bringing some friends. Well, what can I say, that’s just rude. But it happens. In US. Probably not in China. Also, probably not in Russia, as I’d mentioned before. In China and Russia, the stigma of such an action is SO BAD, that no one would dare. In the US culture, that’s not the case. That is to say: it’s rude, but not THAT rude.

Now, your point about ‘money isn’t everything’. I agree, but again, it’s different here and in China. Government does not subsidise living expenses (like apartment). As you found out yourself, it’s not easy to have money in the US! (So different from the common myth in China that ‘all Americans have money’.) From my experience, most kung fu students are not big wage earners. As you do, they may also have families, children, perhaps no medical insurance and ALL KINDS of expenses. Yet they take $60 or whatever every month out of their family budget and give it to you. All the kung fu brothers I’ve known, to my knowledge NEVER had enough money saved to cover next month’s rent. They don’t live with their parents for free (as is often the case in China); you know how much rent is in US. Yet they bring $60 per month to you. Maybe they drive a junker to work, it needs repairs, it needs to pass emissions test or they loose registration… They bring $60 per month to you. This I know for a fact from personal experience. My kung-fu brothers shorted themselves to bring in tuition to the school. Is this not respect?

Anyway, I agree with you that money isn’t everything. I understand how you want to make sure the person is not a bad person before you teach him good kung-fu (which is both a treasure and a skill that can be used to hurt others.)

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Master’s do deserve respect but not to the point they expect gifts or a student picking up the tab!

That is a first. That is more of a cheap personality issue, not the label of being a sifu.

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picking up the tab

I think I can shed some more light on the ‘pick up the tab’ thing.

In Russia, as in China, the person(s) inviting someone to a restaurant pick up the tab. In US, the tab is shared. I still remember the shock of that first experience: my family was here for about a week, when some of our new friends called us: “Hi, how are you, we want to invite you for lunch, can you make it?” “Yes, sure, great.” So, out we go, have a good time, eat all we want… then the check comes and they say… “ok, let’s just split if five ways.” !!! My parents were shocked, but took it in stride. Just another thing that’s different between here and there.

So when a teacher’s tab is picked up in China, it’s like: “Sifu, we’re taking you out to lunch, no problem.” Here, in US, it’s still “split the tab”. That’s the way it is in US. It has absolutely nothing to do with (dis)respect. And like I mentioned before, the bearing of gifts during visits is not commonly done here, as it is in China and Russia (and maybe other places).

Here’s a true story: whenever I went to China (Jinan), my teacher always treated me to a grand meal upon arrival (lunch or dinner, depending on time of day, at a good restaurant with several guests). When I was leaving, he arranged for me to do the same thing back. When he visited here in US, he insisted on taking me and my parents for dinner (he paid for everyone, of course) on his last night here. It later ocurred to me: he was EDUCATING me in proper Chinese etiquette (sp?). I truly believe he did not think me disrespectful for not knowing to do that on my own.