discipline or dollars

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

one of the things that really bugs me about the CMA world, indeed the whole world, is the blatant capitalism and consumerism of it all.

I am currently studying yang style taiji, under a very good teacher and enjoying it immensely. I can afford the £4 per lesson, of about 1 and a half hours. In fact it seems like a bargain.

What bugs me is the price of seminars and courses. For example sifu remarked apon a chi massage course that will be running sometime next year, it will consist of 6 weekends over a 6 month period, will require 120 hours of clinical massage time with full notes etc. It sounds great. It will cost £500. wow. I cannot afford this! My salary is approx £800 a month.

You may say that if i am dedicated i could make sacrifices and afford anything, but i have debts, barely get by etc… what really gets me is when sifu says things like “you could really make a lot of money as a qualified practictioner in this..” - as if that is the motivation!! maybe for most it is but not for me. If i was to do any such course it would be for myself and for helping others.

It seems as if the world of CMA is aimed at those who have well paid jobs and free weekends. People whose aim after school or college was to earn as much as possible in order to have the best life possible and carry on doing so. Thats fine if that their choice, but not for me. I work as an occupational therapy technician, working directly with people suffering form mental health problems such as stress, anxiety, panic attacks etc. I do this work because i love it, love giving, if only i had more to give - but i cant afford the cost of such courses.

Another case in point: Peter Ralston of effortless power fame is due to visit Britain in July cost £400 for 1 week. Granted this is less than the cost of flying me to texas to see him, i cannot afford it. Perhaps i cannot afford not to? how can i tell? As it is even Zen buddhist centres charge for zazen sessions.

My question is this:
are there any teachers of skill remaining in the world to whom discipline is a better currency than dollars? do any of your teachers take on students who cannot pay with anything more than love of the art and the attempt to perfect it? Are all your students from affluent backgrounds? why is it that CMA flourish in affluent western countries where people can afford to study them but seem lost in the developing world?

Many will argue that skill comes at a price, but i do not believe that this price should be measured in financial terms, i for one will never charge a penny for anything i am able to pass on to others either as part of therepeutic interventions or in my own time. I am not suggesting that anything should be ‘free’ but just that it seems as if no-one takes any care about to whom skill is passed as long as they can pay.

If there is anyone out there who may take a student at some time in the future, who cannot pay in dollars please let the forums know, there are others who do not wish to sacrifice their duty to helping others in order to help only themselves.

2

Your teacher has bills to pay too, and there is nothing wrong with him wanting to be comfortable as well. If teaching MA is his full-time job, then it is not unreasonable for him to want to make a good living from it.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree that there should be more to the MAs than money however if you are making a living off it then you have to make enough to pay your bills :slight_smile:

3

My teacher had a habit of giving away free private lessons, and taught a friend of mine for free in exchange for a place to sleep. I’ve had quite a few times where I just couldn’t afford to pay him anything. He also ended up practically starving, not being able to get a full 3 meals a day at one time, and wasn’t able to pay on his own way back to China to take care of a sick familly member(we had a fund raiser for him). It’s defenitely not the way you want to see someone you care about living their life. Martial arts can be and extremely hard profession to pay the bills with.

4

if MA is someones full time occupation, then fair enough, they have to pay the bills. but why make MA your full time occupation in the first place? if you are ready to dedicate your whole life to it thats great, but not if you fail to see that your students may not be able to do likewise, or afford to do likewise. In my experience those who teach full time either come from a very affluent background and dont need to make so much money or they are in it purely for the money.

does anyone know what the situation is with temples these days? i know shaolin has become far too commercialised, and that much of what may now be taught for vast sums of money is not worth it. are there still some temples remaining that take initiates on the basis of their desire to learn about tao,chan or zen? and do some physical studies on the side? i could certainly join a monastery in this country and learn a great deal about piety, silence, stillness, celibacy and agriculture, but possibly not so much about martial arts.

5

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
[B]if MA is someones full time occupation, then fair enough, they have to pay the bills. but why make MA your full time occupation in the first place? if you are ready to dedicate your whole life to it thats great, but not if you fail to see that your students may not be able to do likewise, or afford to do likewise. In my experience those who teach full time either come from a very affluent background and dont need to make so much money or they are in it purely for the money.

does anyone know what the situation is with temples these days? i know shaolin has become far too commercialised, and that much of what may now be taught for vast sums of money is not worth it. are there still some temples remaining that take initiates on the basis of their desire to learn about tao,chan or zen? and do some physical studies on the side? i could certainly join a monastery in this country and learn a great deal about piety, silence, stillness, celibacy and agriculture, but possibly not so much about martial arts. [/B]

I don’t know that that is entirely fair. What is wrong with making a living from MA? In the past, and it is often still the case today, MA masters would make the bulk of their income from healing people, while their MA students would often pay their way by bringing food or working for their master.

So, explain to me why you think it is unreasonable for someone to make a living from MA? Masters who do so are ‘dedicating’ their life to MA, but are not expecting their students to do the same. All they are expecting is that there is a monetary exchange for the imparting of their expertise - no different to any other profession. And like with any other service provider, if you don’t like what they charge then find another one who better suits your financial circumstances.

6

As a practitioner and teacher I can say that in some cases, and perhaps moreso with internal arts, the time and commitment that is invested on the part of the teacher while training, can make it hard to develop other areas of livelihood and career for the future.
While I personally had a fairly rich life already before I started training, long term training in China makes it hard to return to the west and jumpstart some other career. This is only the case for some people, but the time invested in internal arts required to become proficient makes being a teacher fulltime an understandable choice, not to mention that I think those who do that do it because they love it and want to focus on it. Martial arts is only ever JUST about the money if the teacher is not really good or in love with their art…I dont think the two go together. Unfortunately some people who are fairly good, do llike to charge a very high price.

M

www.taijigongfu.com

7

Greetings..

There is a balance.. the teacher spends time, and time is money.. the student desires a benefit which the teacher can provide.. there is an exchange..

Aside from the obvious, i have found that with the “free” lessons and discounts that are handed out for various reasons there seems to be a diminished focus by the student.. students that pay full tuition tend to be focused on getting what they paid for, while the free or discounted students perceive the benefit to be of less “value”, and so they are less dedicated.. sure, they are appreciative and loyal but find it easier to skip classes here and there for other opportunities..

are there any teachers of skill remaining in the world to whom discipline is a better currency than dollars? do any of your teachers take on students who cannot pay with anything more than love of the art and the attempt to perfect it? Are all your students from affluent backgrounds? why is it that CMA flourish in affluent western countries where people can afford to study them but seem lost in the developing world?

Discipline and dedication are part of the training, that one has discipline and dedication is an asset that will serve them well in their journey.. the teacher’s job is to turn the discipline and dedication into quality CMA.. The teacher has spent long hours and days and years to reach their position and they likely paid a reasonable price.. it is as if they have gone to college to get a teaching degree..

There are many stories of Master/desciple relationships where no money changed hands.. but, the desciple worked for the Master or provided some service in return for the education.. We determine what value the desired benefit has for us and compensate the teacher in some way for that benefit.. it is the balance of the exchange.. a tangible service provided invites a tangible compensation..

Be well..

8

i understand your opinions, and i expected them. but they dont change how i feel at all. the rhetoric is western and consumerist.

the teacher spends time, and time is money

we see it this way becuase we see everything this way.

another point:
dont forget that the teacher does not end learning when he becomes a teacher, my sifu needs me just as much as i need him, if not more. its not just a fact that i must pay him for his time, in what must he pay me for my time? - yes in skill, but as i am benefitting him in this area also…

it depends as well in the goal of MA, in my own case it may be better served outside of MA itself.

And like with any other service provider, if you don’t like what they charge then find another one who better suits your financial circumstances.

this doesnt work if everyone who practices quality lives in a society that buts a monetary price on it. remember i’m not asking for something for nothing, just not for money. but yes i’m looking for a ‘cheap’ one, which is why this thread, if you know of someone who charges nothing in terms of money then let me know.

or perhaps its just me. what do you think of this :- watching karate kid as a child affected me in some way into perceiving the mr miyagi relationship as being the ultimate pupil teacher relationship? in many respects its not unreasonable as sifu means father right? not boss.

As a practitioner and teacher I can say that in some cases, and perhaps moreso with internal arts, the time and commitment that is invested on the part of the teacher while training, can make it hard to develop other areas of livelihood and career for the future.

look ahead a generation though. although it may be true for you. if you try to recoup your monetary losses thru your students, they will either have the money to pay but not be able to dedicate all their life to it which leads to your skill becoming weaker as it passes each generation - it happens! look around! or, you find some students willing to commit all to learning as you did but cannot afford to do so. so it makes great sense for you in the short term but unless you are that selfish its not good in the long term for MA.

students that pay full tuition tend to be focused on getting what they paid for, while the free or discounted students perceive the benefit to be of less “value”

i agree that this will be the case as long as the students are consumers, give someone from another culture to our affluent western one some skill and they may appreciate it for skills sake. those students you mention who are so focused may be actually more focused on the money and not the skill.

it is as if they have gone to college to get a teaching degree..

wow, if only those of us with teaching degrees could dictate how much they earn too! teachers dont earn very much around here mate, you become a teacher out of love of teaching not for the money, and although it may cost you some, it doesnt cost as much as that..

so as you see, i disagree, but if i didnt the thread would be pointless as i am clearly unhappy with the status quo.

in the end, all forms of skill were not gifts of the gods, or the domain of kings to keep from the masses. they were and are developed by individuals who pursued skill, and anyone who pursues skill will find it regardless of how much they can afford to learn from others.

9

this doesnt work if everyone who practices quality lives in a society that buts a monetary price on it. remember i’m not asking for something for nothing, just not for money. but yes i’m looking for a ‘cheap’ one, which is why this thread, if you know of someone who charges nothing in terms of money then let me know.

or perhaps its just me. what do you think of this :- watching karate kid as a child affected me in some way into perceiving the mr miyagi relationship as being the ultimate pupil teacher relationship? in many respects its not unreasonable as sifu means father right? not boss.

In a way I agree - not everything should have a monetary value. However it does come back to the fact that a sifu also has to pay the bills.

As for the Mr Miyagi thing - I think that really was a fairly idealised relationship. Also note that in the movie Mr Miyagi had a day job. Teaching MA was not the way he made a living.

Look at it this way - there has to be some sort of exchange. In exhange for your sifu teaching you, you have to give something in return. The question really is, as you put it, whether he really needs you more than you need him. Is that really the case? If you really want to learn from him, then you have to agree to his terms i.e. in exchange for his teaching you give him money. If he is happy with receiving nothing more than your dedication in return for his teaching, then fine. However if he requires money in return for his teaching, then that is what you have to accept, or go elsewhere.

I must admit I am lucky because I get to train for free. It wasn’t always the case - I had to pay my fees for years until my sifu was convinced of my dedication, then he decided I could learn for free. Maybe that is what your sifu is doing :wink:

10

Joedoe,So Rick got his second Rolex?:smiley: Just joking.

Those who can Do,those who can’t Teach

I have no problem with people wanting to earn a living through teaching MA ,although I don’t pay much credit to MA teachers who have never experienced volience,spent time in Armed Forces/Combat Industries or Ring Sports.It just seems that many of these guys preach to make people invincible without any intention or way of testing it.Smoke and mirrors,if they said this art will boast confidence increase cardio vascular fittness yadda yadda but most make the usual claims of highly efficent deverstating style for all ages and sex.
If someone derives his sole income from a MA place you can petty much know that the Business(and profits) comes first,his training second and the students as individuals third.

I do feel there should be regulation and standards set.Mainly envolving Anatomy and Physiology, Advanced first aid(at least)Nutrition and Educational Psychology.
Also those Teachers that don’t acknowledge or understand the cultural influences from other countries and create msytery should admit it and get to that country and do some time.

11

“the rhetoric is western and consumerist”

well I am sorry to burst the bubble here, but if you have travelled outside if the “west” you are probably aware that the “rhetoric” is actually universal and fundamental to human livelihood.
What is actually “western” and “consumerist” is the false mystification-exotification of “eastern” society and culture by the “west.” Which is to say that the fact that you actually think “eastern” thought is somehow above, or beyond the need for monetary considerations in martial arts relationships, is both a totally western created fallacy, and can only come from one who has in reality never been to train in the east at all.

“if you try to recoup your monetary losses thru your students…”

No, here again you have missed the point. I was not even trying to refer to teachers “recouping” their losses. Teachers who are/were avid learners of martial arts often would not consider what they spent and traded for their training to be a loss, no matter how expensive it was. In fact there is no loss, only gain. Money is valueless in the face of great training.
However, as the teacher may have spent a lot of time and energy and probably financial assets to learn what they learned, later on, they may need support by their students just to survive, because during that training they may not have developed other means of livelihood.

Regarding China especially, teachers, and moreso one’s shifu is respected and valued almost above everything except perhaps your own family…it depends. People have spend fortunes to learn what their teachers had, and people have spent fortunes to take care of their shifu’s. This is actually the old way. The new way is a lot easier.
I think in this subject you need to do a little more research before you can criticise and compare what is actually western and eastern. In a sense, what you are saying may be half correct regarding the “old” way of Chinese training; Money may have been seen as less important. But you have to use your head and realize that this type of statement means two things; money is not important to the teacher, it is character that is most important in the student, but money is also not important for the student, it is the teacher that is most important, therefore they often freely give a lot of that not important money to the teacher, who quietly accepts it while concentrating on the student.

I am not one to say that martial arts, ever was, or ever should be easy. That is just the way it is. These things are even harder to reconcile with the modern world. If you actually cannot make sense of the paradoxes in this type of “eastern” phenomenon, then you just cannot get it, therefore only criticise in this very obviously “western” way.

You get what you pay for in life and martial arts, both financially and spiritually. The money you are willing to sacrifice expresses the spirit you are willing to devote.
The only problem is the possibility of devoting yourself to a charlatan, which is perhaps just bad karma and nothing can really be effectively said about handling that.

M

www.taijigongfu.com

12

Hi all,

I really hate this situation. I hate that everything in this world goes around money, but what can i do? not much. In my case my master cant do much to better this. We have to pay him that the goverment doesn’t send him back to China, we have to pay for the places where we train at winter, this costs a lot. Because of this our training is really expensive. Many of my friends have trouble getting the money. It is sad that money becomes obstacle to our training. It is sad that poor people cant train. But what can we do? Maybe we can hope and wait that our county gives our assosiation some finansial help, but now we must just train as much as we can and hope better future.

Well has anything really changed in this world. In old times in China wushu was taught in rich families and i don’t think that many poor people trained wushu exept if they were sent to some tempels. Maybe we have to do something to change this world so it doesnt just follow the money, or just hope better future.

Bayanbulag

13

Greetings..

Consider the premise of “money”.. there was a time when we bartered goods and services, but.. in todays society the goods and services are too diverse and the needs too inconsistent.. so, we have money, money represents the amount of goods or services we have accumalated for our efforts to be used for bartering purposes.. The teacher has accumalated years of training (likely with a cost) that he or she is willing to share.. willing to share for something in return (bartering).. the student has accumalated money representing his own goods and services.. Now, the teacher may not need the service of an Order-taker at Wendy’s, but is willing to accept “money” as representing that service.. Money allows the services to be tailored where they are needed, yet represented to whomever.. Money is the common exchange of goods and services accross a diverse and complex society..

The suggestion that a student’s dedication and love of the Art represents goods or services is best demonstrated by the amount of money (labor) they are willing to part with.. or, as in many schools (mine included), the students may exchange direct services for fees.. some students provide computer services, some provide printing/marketing services, some just clean and fix-up the place.. and some, have demonstrated such dedication and ability as to earn them the position of assistant instructor, they pay a token amount (very small) that shows they realize the nature of the relationship.. Whenever a student falls on hard times and they can’t afford the fees, we make arangements.. The student realizes that it costs a lot to maintain a school building, pay the bills, stock supplies, etc.. it becomes a team effort to insure that the Art/style survives..

The Karate Kid analogy has its own exchange, “wax on~wax off”, the kid worked for his lessons.. If a student approached me with the “expectation” that i provide him/her a service for naught in return, i would question their ethics.. as was mentioned earlier, the “old” relationship was Master/student where the mention of “money” was not considered, it was assumed.. the student accepted the position realizing that some exchange was appropriate.. service, money, goods,etc.. even in the Temples the students worked, otherwise the Temple wouldn’t function..

Sevices acquire value dependent upon quality.. we each decide what service we want, how much quality we can afford, and compensate the provider accordingly..

Be well…

14

well

The Karate Kid analogy has its own exchange, “wax on~wax off”, the kid worked for his lessons.. If a student approached me with the “expectation” that i provide him/her a service for naught in return, i would question their ethics..

yes, i never said anyone should get anything for nothing. just that the exchange may not necessarily be money for skill. so the karate kid analogy would suit me fine, but u just cant find teachers like that. actually the answer comes to be thru this thread but not in terms of direct advice given. what does kung fu mean ‘hard work’? so i am just going to go wwoofing instead.

but to go over some other points:

Which is to say that the fact that you actually think “eastern” thought is somehow above, or beyond the need for monetary considerations in martial arts relationships, is both a totally western created fallacy, and can only come from one who has in reality never been to train in the east at all.

i never said anything about the east. i said about developing countries, is china included in the developing world despite having a third of the world population, only the third county to put a man in space, etc etc. no, and i wouldnt speak about the ‘east’ in that way, but i do agree with you, alot of people do think that way.

and another thing, i was wrong when i said about rich people being able to buy the skill that i cannot. the fact is, the richer you are, the less value you see in even a single dollar. and having money does not replace dedication, being able to buy a ferrari does not make you a great driver.

15

money for nothing

We seem to have this Hollywood approach to Martial arts and training and teachers. We seem to think that we are individually so self important that we are somehow excluded from having to live and exist in a REAL world of finances and paying bills and earning a living.we feel as though we are the long lost student that the “master” finally finds to pass on his lineage and ways,and free of charge,only cleaning his toilet and wiping his A$$ for him are all that is required to learn. Gimme a break folks.

whereas i feel that sometimes people who claim to “teach” exploit and extort money from others(i can think of a few places that do that). I too find it difficult to afford a seminar or some intensive course being offerred. i think that is why you save your money for something like that. if you make e800 a month and the course is e500 for a week or something, then you save in advance and be glad that you were able to attend such a seminar that you deemed worthy of your time and money.

i dont mean to be harsh but i think that when you can get rid of this self importance and whining and REALIZE that these “masters” are just regular people earning a living just as you are. they are only “master” by their, or some other blind followers title imposed.

                                             Peace,,,TWS
16

students of “affluent backgrounds” in kungfu?! Havent seen any daughters and sons of the rich & famous in my school. Most folks are just getting by and make a lot of sacrifices to train.

Reality is that life is about choice. You choose your profession. You choose your hobbies. Stop whining about the cost of things and critically examine your life. Only three possibilities, you’re moving toward your goals, moving away from them or holding the status quo. (financial, kungfu, whatever) Maybe that Chi massage course is an investment that is gonna bust you through to the next level. (improve your kung fu, allow to open up a massage business on the side whatever.)

Dont think anyone on this board woke up to a pile of money one morning. Most of us bust our butts to get what we have. It is where we direct our energy that is the key.

17

lol i’m not whining! just offering my opinions on a subject and i’m grateful for your opinions, and i may well be wrong but i wont see that if u tell me, only on my own. this particular thread speaks volumes i believe about each of those posting including me, if i appear whiney to you fair enough, but i can think of better people to moan and groan to than you.

actually i’d like to answer my own self riteous and whiney post. no one has asked me this:

ok, so you would prefer things to be about discipline would you? ok, how much time do you spend on your taiji forms each day? do you spend 3 hours a day religiously? you spend an hour a day after work? do you even go through the form once a day? if you dont then how can you preach about discipline? perfect what you have before you even worry about buying or learning anything else.

i dont train even everyday at the moment so why dont i just shut up and

18

Western way? Please…

China has been ferociously capitalist for 5000 years. It’s been “communist” for 50, and that’s being rapidly left behind.