MA being street effective!

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Hey all.

It feels as if this newage fad of MA being “street effective” & “self defense” originated from the US.
Not sure if it is a McDojo syndrome or not.

Now before I start t upset People, and I am planning on doing so. :wink:
Yes, ONE of the goals why I study MA is so that I can use it when I need to.
But this WHOLE deal of:
1.) Increasing your punching speed
2.) Toughening your whole Body
3.) Learning street effective fighting
4.) Which is the most effective MA or technique.

Is plain nonsensical ego and defeats the object.
MA canmake a Fighter into a better Fighter, it cannot turn somebody into a Figher that has no disposition towards it.

So all the Guys that think that MA will make them into a deadly fighting force, need to wake up and do a reality check.

Fastest Punch, deadliest technique, etc mean nothing if you do not use them.
Yes, I see plenty of people here that daydream of winning 200 fights, collecting 500 Trophies, getting chicks by being tough.
Living under the illusion that their MA trainig will protect them during a mucking,etc.

Yes, MA is used for fighting.
1.) Either for military forces
2.) As a way of protecting your belongings.
But the ancients that used them had a completely different mindset from the modern MA “Tough Guy”.
Back than it was a case of win or die/be crippled for the rest of your life.

I have seen MA-trained People and non-MA trained people fight, and to be brutally honest there is very little difference between them.
Neither is pretty, impressive nor glorious, both are aimed a winning and getting out of the confrontation.
So to all the Guys that think that MA trained Fighters are superior and automatic winners in a confrontation. wake up and smell the Blood.

MA might give you an advantage in a real fight. Regardless if you covered the 4 corners in the circle.
Ok, Guys flame on.
I am here waiting to be ripped to shreds.

2

YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!! :mad:

:wink: Nah, actually I agree with you. (Where did that come from anyway? Something happen today?)

Well I for one am definitely a man who is looking for realistic ways of protecting myself through martial art. Much of that research has taken me to the stuff I’m training now. However, because of the reality of my training I am very well aware of how unrealistic the whole “tough guy bravado” stuff really is. For most that kind of attitude just masks a scared little boy. For me, I am now much more aware of how human we all are, and how mortal we as martial artists are. This is why I don’t necessarily think I can beat up a big strong guy bent on my destruction just because I train realistically…it’s because I train realistically that I have my healthy doubts! :smiley: But that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. And that I wouldn’t spend time learning how to fight.

I think the "internet’ makes things look worse than they are…especially stuff you see from BJJ/NHB guys, “reality” guys, etc.
In reality, I think everyone is trying to get good at what they do, and all have different motivations for training. That’s fine.

I very much hold to the “traditonal values” of the martial artist.
But my physical training has become very “modern” I suppose you can say.
But that doesn’t mean I dive into a world of tough guy garbage.
I couldn’t live that way anyway. It’s not my personality.

Ryu

3

I hear what your saying, and for the most part I agree. I think most everone on this board will too. Everyone is going to have to come to such a realization. Let me ask you this, what defines a person as a ‘fighter?’ You said MA makes fighters better fighters but if your not a fighter than your SOL? So if i’m a said ‘not fight’ am I better off not learning MA? Or will I just never amount to anything? I wouldn’t consider myself a fight. I have been in fights, I have done what it takes to win. But I don’t like fighting. So shall I just lay down and die next time? I guess i’m jumping to a lot of conclusions here, I’m not trying to be stand offish. I think everyone has some fight in them when the right bottons are pushed. Therefore I think just about anyone can take benifits from MA training.

4

Originally posted by Ryu

:wink: Nah, actually I agree with you. (Where did that come from anyway? Something happen today?

Actually I spoke to one of my old Biking Buddies back in SA.

And we somehow got yapping about MA being used in fights and how they would stand up to a proper Biker fight.

Let me also say, that I had MA Buddies that got killed in pub fights(1 punch) and so on.

Same token I have seen Guys take the leaded end of a Pool stick to their mouth and teeth, wipe the blood off and throw the Guy down 3 flights of stairs. No “Iron xxxx” Skills there.

I myself took 5 full blown shots with a Baseball bat and walked away after asking the Guys if they were finished (sore & blue for 1 week afterwards)
as I simply didn’t want to fight that night. At that time I had not learned any form of Qi-Gong.

Also a lot of people forget that the ancient MA Fighters were either professional Soldiers or in Fighters for hire or assigned to protect their villages so that village life could go on and support them.
Plenty of MA earned theri living by selling healing potions and were poor and most of the times not welcome when they showed up.
It also gets me when modern day MA students idolize and have inflated images of ancient Masters and their achievement.
Greatest changes to the Systems were done in peace times and not during times of strife.

MA were the exception NOT the rule and most of them were a bit crazy and not nice People.
As one of my older Instructors always said:
“Only the good fighters survived, the rest were left behind on the Battle field.”
One of my JMA Instructors always said:
“There is no honour, fairness in a fight, there is only the honour of how you accept defeat or victory.”

In plain english, once you get into a fight you do whatever is needed to win, and that might mean dumping your MA training/skills out the window to do so.

Yeah, I know that rubs the traditionalists the wrong way.
But one high ranked MA Master was killed in a drive by shooting. Nobody wanted to get close to him.

5

Hi Qi-dup.

I see a diff. between a Fighter and a Person that defends itself.

Through all the ages the Fighters were the people that took the risks and got paid for it.
May the be called, Army, Police, Specials Forces, SWAT Teams, local milita, Village Defenders, etc.

And MA was designed for those people, not for the average Joe Farmer in the field. Yes, the Famres also took up Weapons, but only as last resort.

And, PLEAASSEE, don’t tell me about Okinawa, To-Te was trained by the aristocrats and Military leaders not the peasants. And yes there is prof, msot of the Masters were high ranked Military officers.

But in modern day too many people think that they are the 2nd-coming of YLC, Miyamoto Musashi, etc.
Said that I don’t like fighting myself, but I enjoy the training I get by studying MA. Yes, I have used those skills in a fight.

But I will NEVEr consider myself a fighter as this takes a full-time commitment to the MA.

Anyhuh, time to jump of the Box

6

I have seen scuffels
scuffels of people who don’t know how to fight and people who do.

Karate might not be as pretty as Kung Fu
But in a situation such as this
being direct and to the point is what counts

When someone takes you off guard, you want to know the best,quickest,most direct response to overcomming the situation.

This is Karate.No time to think, just do it

7

Hi Tinman.

That is not only Kara-te, but the result of any proper MA/Fighting training.

Same has been used to sell any MA from Shao-Lin via Tai Chi to Kali.

8

“In plain english, once you get into a fight you do whatever is needed to win, and that might mean dumping your MA training/skills out the window to do so.”

Well people might disagree, but I see combat itself as “martial art” That quote up there is my exact philosophy on martial arts, and that’s why I’ve come to train the way I do.
(someone once said it didn’t seem like a “Ryu” thing to do to kick someone in the head when they were on the ground…)
Fighting is fighting, I’ve come out of the idealization of Bruce Lee and amazing martial arts skills that allow me to be superhuman…

Now I consider using a baseball bat martial arts. If you take a billard ball and slam it into someone face, that’s also martial arts.

The true essence of the “martial artist” I guess in my opinion is not the physical fighting skill (although that’s part of it) the real essence of it in my mind is in the mentality, humility, benevolence, etc.

In my stories I have two characters who possess very Buddhist/monk-like qualities. These characters hold to the mentality and “honor” of the “traditional” code, but when they fight they fight to win. They will headbutt, sucker punch, tackle, ground and pound, knife fight, pick up a bat and smash someone, use a gun to subdue someone, etc.
Their physical skills are very “real world” (and I don’t make them superhuman either…they can get hurt just like anyone else) But the point is just because they fight like a “streetfighter” doesn’t mean that they have a terrible attitude, go around being bullies, etc.

To me the time to really stress the “warrior morality” is for those whose skills really are “real world” etc.
I may not agree with some of the attitudes of say a Tito Ortiz or Sammy Franco, etc. But if their skills do the job and promote “reality awareness” then they must be doing something right.

Because of who I am…I cannot try for realistic fighting skill without cultivating moral character, reality awareness, humility, etc.

Theres’ just too many variables out there. You don’t have to curl up and die :slight_smile: But don’t take yourself too seriously either…

Ryu

9

Hi Ryu.

Similar to you I see MA training as a preparation for a fight, not as the rules or the ultimate method to fight.

Yes, I can and have used some techniques I learned, but I guess they were not textbook executions. :stuck_out_tongue:

In the end everybody will fight using his “own” style/skill, whatever it may be and whatever it may contain.

Yes, being able to do 105 high kicks nonstop is impressive,but has no real world application (poke at the karate Guys), it only shows that you have trained your Body control & fitness to a high degree.

Seeya.

10

Wow

Thanks Mr. Story man
Is there a point to get to?

11

red_fists

Hi red_fists i hope your well.
Im going to respectfully disagree with how i percieve your post.
I certainly respect your views and know from experience you have a good mind and know what your talking about.
However…
Ive run into this a LOT as well particualy over on the internal formums. Im of the ‘combat orientated’ tribe and yet i study cma both internal and external. Im also in quite a unique position of being able to study full time and having a sifu who is of the old school of thought.
Ok off with the disclaimers and on to the debate:D

“MA canmake a Fighter into a better Fighter, it cannot turn somebody into a Figher that has no disposition towards it.”

  • We as martial artists should not seek to become ‘fighters’ we should seek to become ‘warriors’ there is a BIG difference. A fighters fights, a warrior stands up for beliefs and refuses to be threatened with physical violence for them. I dont think of myself as a fighter but i also dont abide for fools and i WILL stick my head in when i deem it appropriate. I also like to spar with various other arts and enjoy combat in a broad sence. However i dont like the idea that this somehow makes me a non rightous person. Infact its quite the opposite, my skills in my hands have led to myself being more open about what i believe in. I can only see this as a good thing.

“So all the Guys that think that MA will make them into a deadly fighting force, need to wake up and do a reality check.”

  • This is a ‘little’ presumptious, really martial arts are partly designed to turn people into skilled fighters. We are not just born with a natural ability to fight well infact our reflexs for fighting are generaly poor when there untrained, its all aquired knowledge.
    Trust me when i say im a LOT better at fighting now than i was 6 years ago and i could attribute 80% of it to good practice and 20% of it to finding good training partners.
    Your comment reads as though you do not believe that martial arts can turn a poor fighter into a skilled one and i would have to argue that point.

“Fastest Punch, deadliest technique, etc mean nothing if you do not use them.”

  • Knowledge=Power. Sure you need to practice but if a surgen doesnt know where to cut simply being able to wont help. Its a two edged sword.

“Living under the illusion that their MA trainig will protect them during a mucking,etc.”

  • It can, but as well should all know its not always wise to fight back rather just hand over your cash, your martial arts training proberly taught you many of your views towards combat.
    Then again if im attacked by someone trying to cut me BEFORE they ask for my wallet what then?

I wont keep picking out various points but i still have to say you come accross as though you dont respect those of us who are combat orientated. I dont do it becouse i want to beat people up and i havent compeated in years, i do spar a LOT and i dont mind copping a punch in the spirit of learning. The reason i do it is becouse i enjoy it, nothing more nothing less. I dont seek fame and i certainly dont want to ever be forced to hurt someone badly but that doesnt mean i cant enjoy learning about combat and how it applies to my internal study.
Honestly i WOULD be interested in my health if it werent for one minor problem…
Im 24 male, slight build, fit and i enjoy going out with my friends once in a while and losing the plot;)
When i beguin to need to worry about my health i will but untill that day im enjoying focussing on the combat aspects and letting my mind revolve around those.
I enjoy pool for the same reason i enjoy combat, applied physics to movement. Its not so hard to understand really:D
All the best
Jon

12

I pretty much agree. It can have real world application if you use it and train it with real world application. But again, there’s many variables that come into play.

By the way, when is “White Day”? (Japanese valentine’s where guys give girls presents?) It’s March 14th right?
(I’m sending some stuff to a friend)

Ryu

13

Uhhhh…are you talking to me, Tinman?

No point. I like stories. :smiley:

And my martial art is better than yours. :stuck_out_tongue:

Ryu

14

Congradulations on another long boring BOOK you just wrote.

I know I know
He’s been here before windows 95
with over 2000 posts.the right to be boring.

15

sorry
one thousand for hundred and something

16

Hi Jon.

I respect people that study “Combat orientated” MA for what they are.

I don’t respect the Guys that go overly tough and macho, most of them will look for the best punching bag, best shoes, etc. and completely overlook that it is the proper training/attitude and not the tool that creates the skill.

Same with modern day weight training, most System got their own methods for dealing with them, but they rather push weigths in a Gym, flex muscls in front of chicks and holler that they are now improving their MA.
Rather than use the old methods.

I also deliberately didn’t go into the Warrior/Fighter split as the people I see are neither, but fighter is closer to what they do.
Said that I have found the same to be true in many aspects of Life.
Too many people look for tools/technqiues to guarantee succes without realising that the best tool/technique is only as good as the person using it.

I ofen hear People studying MA, but they are afraid of hurting people or getting hurt themselves and NO MA training will take that fear away only self-realisation will do so.
Anyhuh, time to get the gloves off for Tinman.

17

By the way, when is “White Day”? (Japanese valentine’s where guys give girls presents?) It’s March 14th right?
(I’m sending some stuff to a friend)
Ryu

Sorry, needed to look it up myself.
Us married folks don’t celebrate anymore.

Yep, March 14. Remember it needs to cost atleast 3 times of what she gave him. And be white of course. :slight_smile:

18

Tinman’s incredible powers of deductive logic and reason have rendered any attempts of intellectual rebuttle sheer pooey. :smiley:

If you don’t like it, put me on your ignore list, Daniel-San. All you do is harp on Karate.

(no offense to Budokan with that Daniel-san comment. :wink: )

Ryu

19

3 times as much… :frowning: sigh… :smiley:

Thanks, red_fists. I’ll make sure to mark it on my calendar.

Ryu

20

Ryu.

He should be lucky that he is not getting engaged.

Engagement rings are usually 3+ times his monthly income. :rolleyes: