I have yet to see anyone else do luohan quan as deyang does but i’ll take your word for it. I don’t think they would have learned it from Suxi though, he was Nanyuan pai, and mainly taught Xiao Tongbei well. Plus he had already mostly stopped practicing by the time deyang would have become his disciple. God rest him, a mi tou fo.
We say it is mixed up as there is a lot missing plus he changes a few directions.
For example the ban shou followed by xuan feng jiao. This is one move, you use ban shou to distract the opponant and prepare for the big kick, its a common combination, that saying xuan feng must be done in the same direction as the ban shou. Deyang turns back on himself eliminating the meaning. he compensates for this by spinning into bai fo. The other sets simply step into bai fo since they are already facing the same direction there is no need to spin. Actually this is not a big problem, you can change direction anytime you like in order to fit your training space, however there are still too many moves missing.
Zhao yang quan is not actually Zhaoyang quan at all. That form is called gaunchao quan or tide watching form in english, and Deyang has changed it dramatically. The real zhao yang quan no longer exists in deng feng, but it is 3 forms, each of about 60 moves and it is incredible. They have interlinking symmetry and can be practiced together to form a 180 move form. Good stuff, Up there with Pao quan, Da hong, Tong bei, Luohan and the other best forms.
I first learned Luohan from Yanming in a one-day seminar. I kept that for a spell, but eventually let it go because there was no one to coach me further on it. It mapped more or less on to the Luohan that was presented in Guolin’s article series.
Funny story - Guolin wasn’t that accustomed to being in a photo shoot where you constantly have to stop and do it again. It messed with his flow and he kept losing his place. By that time, I had forgotten Yanming’s Luohan, but could still remember bits of it and could coach Guolin back on track. He kept insisting that I knew the form and trying to get me to show him my version.
I learned a Luohan again under my master Decheng. I really liked his version and I’m embarrassed that that I lost it. His was the most divergent.
I learned it again from Yanfei, who I’m training under now. He hasn’t drilled me on it in months, so it’s pretty rusty. I keep thinking I should pester him to bring that one back into our rotation, but only half of the class knows it and we have some newbies now, so he’s focused on getting them up to speed. I really should dig that one out again and bring it back into my practice.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961857]We say it is mixed up as there is a lot missing plus he changes a few directions.[/QUOTE]
you’re comparing two different sets.
For example the ban shou followed by xuan feng jiao. This is one move, you use ban shou to distract the opponant and prepare for the big kick, its a common combination, that saying xuan feng must be done in the same direction as the ban shou. Deyang turns back on himself eliminating the meaning. he compensates for this by spinning into bai fo.
actually in application of the move in laojia luohanquan you turn back the opposite direction after banshou to entice the opponent to come forward, at which point you launch the xuanfengjiao. it takes off in the opposite direction, but still hits the charging opponent.
the same strategy is used in mizongquan yilu, toward the end after banshou comes a tengkong bailian, then a chopping palm in the opposite direction, enticing the opponent forward when you’ve apparently turned away. then you catch them with the “hoist a flag in the wind” technique which snaps back at them. it resembles the ceremonial way the chinese throw out their flag to be raised up the pole if you’ve seen that.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961857]I don’t think they would have learned it from Suxi though, he was Nanyuan pai, and mainly taught Xiao Tongbei well. Plus he had already mostly stopped practicing by the time deyang would have become his disciple.[/QUOTE]
?
by 1983 he had just begun to fall ill and lose some mobility but still practiced and taught at that time. he also headed the “group for excavation & systematization of shaolin wushu”, and published texts like “the secret transmissions of shaolin boxing”. he was known as the “shaolin boxing king”. his knowledge of shaolin boxing was encyclopedic and he taught quite a lot to master deyang, who at that time became known as the “young shaolin boxing king” for their vast knowledge of shaolin sets and specialized skills.
Zhao yang quan is not actually Zhaoyang quan at all. That form is called gaunchao quan or tide watching form in english, and Deyang has changed it dramatically.
its the same “zhaoyangquan” in the shaolin encyclopedia. in the same sequence.
The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it. Just because it is printed does not make it all the most authentic shaolin kung fu. If you see the new version (the 2 book version) it even contains updated modern versions of some forms.
I can tell you a lot about Zhaoyang quan but its not info for an open forum.
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[QUOTE=LFJ;962014]you’re comparing two different sets.
actually in application of the move in laojia luohanquan you turn back the opposite direction after banshou to entice the opponent to come forward, at which point you launch the xuanfengjiao. it takes off in the opposite direction, but still hits the charging opponent.
the same strategy is used in mizongquan yilu, toward the end after banshou comes a tengkong bailian, then a chopping palm in the opposite direction, enticing the opponent forward when you’ve apparently turned away. then you catch them with the “hoist a flag in the wind” technique which snaps back at them. it resembles the ceremonial way the chinese throw out their flag to be raised up the pole if you’ve seen that.[/QUOTE]
That move is in Mizong ER lu, at the end. The chopping palm is also a common technique used to capture and attack the opponants arm.
Also if you check your encyclopedia (if you have the old one) you will find that the end does not contain this move. THe whole luohan shui jiao bit is not present. I In the old encyclopedia this form is listed as 'Er lu Xin Yi quan. I can’t begin to say whats wrong with this statement… The first form, yi lu xin yi mizong is not listed in the encyclopedia.
In the old version it does a section from er lo da hong quan then it does do wai bai lian but on the other side and without ban shou. This is all from memory, my encyclopedia is back home.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;962038]The Encyclopedia is not the ultimate source of shaolin, it contains a lot of misinformation. It only contains information known by the few people who compiled it.[/QUOTE]
i reference it because you say master deyang mixed things up and made his own version and changed names. but its obvious he’s not the only one who does these sets this way. “misinformation” also depends on what/who you tend to believe.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;962039]That move is in Mizong ER lu, at the end.[/QUOTE]
its taught as yilu by master deyang, before the other set that is erlu. even though the instructional videos have them named backward.
Ever thought the information on zhaoyang quan in that encyclopedia came from Deyang?
I Learnt yi lu and er lu mizong quan at Wuseng Hou bei dui from Deyang personally, he referred to Er lu as the one with the jumping side kick, Yi lu is the one with the unecessarily large number of xu bu’s Although I did learn Er lu first.
Doesn’t matter really. The one with all the xu bu’s is a much more interesting form (perhaps not as cool) and makes more sense to be Yi lu.
the encyclopedia would have been edited by more than one person and cross-referenced for accuracy, at least to name it as the right set. thats kind of what the encyclopedia was for.
but also, the luohan shibashou yilu set is not only done in that sequence by master deyang, but also by at least master deru and branch schools under him in the u.s.. it has slight technical differences but the same sequence, and they are both under ven. suxi.
of interest, how were you taught that mizong set with all the xubus? its quite a bit different from the videos he put out.
when were you at the school, and how much chinese do you speak?
Chaoyang quan is a shortened version of Zhaoyang quan with a slightly different name.
(Chaoyang = Sunny) (Zhaoyang = Rising Sun)
Both are actually not the original zhaoyang quan (that is 3 forms long 180 movements). The form your referring to is GuanChao quan (tide watching form). It was taught to the school students in DengFeng during the late 50’s early 60’s.
I spent 3 months at Wu Seng Hou Bei Dui last summer. Deyang Shi taught me Er lo personally and taught yi lu to the entire school together. Yi lu is a little different to the videos, If you break it up it has 9 xu bu’s plus a tenth stance which is unique, halfway between a Xu Bu and a Pu Bu (he doesn’t use it in the video). When we were all learning it he would stop for a few minutes at every stance and talk about it. We all had to stay in stance while he was talking. With that many Xu bu’s it was a killer.
I have lived in China almost continuously for 4 years. I never specifically learned chinese but I can speak reasonably well. Can’t read or write it though :-).
Yes! I do mean last year. Lose track of time here. I guess I know who you are too then Hey, how you doin?
If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.
Yeah, after Li Ya Fei taught me the shape of it Deyang Shi spent a few afternoons with me and changed a few bits and told me a bit more about it.
After another 6 weeks or so he taught the entire school Yi lu. We practiced it all in lines together, but we spent a really long time on it comparitively, and he talked a lot about each stance. I never used to like the look of Yi Lu but after that I appreciate it a lot more than Er lu.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;962317]If you are who I think then I think I showed you the complete version of Tagous luohan quan? I showed Ya Fei. But that was not good, I know a better version now.[/QUOTE]
thats the longer daluohanquan set, whereas master deyang’s is laojia luohanquan, now called xiaoluohanquan of 36 postures. two different sets.
So this must be Luohan quan from another place… Everyone I have asked Knows the video, they have all seen it before, but no one knows the man. Some people have suggested that it is Luohan from Wu Tai Mountain. I realise the voiceover is in Cantonese, never the less this style is certainly from northern china.
Can anyone help me? Does anyone know where this quan is from, who this guy is or anything at all about green monk robes?
saw another video of it with this in the description.
()
18 luohan shou (), an ancient boxing type of shaanxi hongquan ().
also related to fujian luohanquan (), later called dazunquan (), and in guangdong blended with hongquan (, canto: hungkyun) into fojiaquan (, canto: fatgakyun) also called “buddha palm”- fozhang (, canto: fatjeung).
Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can’t go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.
I’ve been meaning to go back there for a long time, I’ll go next spring and see if I can find this style.
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;962547]Shaanxi hong quan, That means it is probably as I initially thought from Wu Tai shan. There are many different styles there, but it is relatively unexploited. I can’t go there just yet, and soon it will be too cold.
I’ve been meaning to go back there for a long time, I’ll go next spring and see if I can find this style.[/QUOTE]
its exactly what was pasted into the description of that luohanquan video. i cant confirm that it actually has anything to do with that particular set, but it does seem to have some similarities to shaanxi hongquan.
however, before you run off to wutaishan, isnt that in shanxi province, rather than shaanxi ?
Hey, how you doin?