Luohan Quan

[QUOTE=r.(shaolin);961165]Hi Sal
How many old Shaolin traditions have you run across that use “Shaolin Luohan Men” as a discriptor?

I understand that Sun Yu Fung’s Lohan Men and Miao Xing’s Luohan are not the same. What is your understanding of the term “Luohan Men”?
r.[/QUOTE]

No, I’ve only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung’s martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun’s teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

Miao Xing’s Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style’s) Wan Laisheng’s Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.

[QUOTE=GeneChing;960237]There’s a consistency within Shaolin Luohan forms that is unique. They almost always emphasis some movements involving bowing the hands or a similar ‘luohan’ like gesture. For this reason, I wouldn’t go as far as to say ‘it is just a way of saying “Shaolin Quan”.’ It’s a specific subset of Shaolinquan. However, I understand Sal’s intention behind this comment and agree with it in general principle.

There’s an interesting Luohan DVD in our Grandmasters series (which is mostly Emei-based masters):
Grandmaster Peng Gaoji: Arhat Fist
luohanquan
In the final years of the Qing Dynasty, Yang Zhaoyuan of Leshan Mountain followed his master Shi Zhipu to Songshan Shaolin Temple in Henan Province to study martial arts. Yang mastered the Shaolin method and returned to Leshan to teach Arhat Fist in the Neijiang district. An Arhat, or luohan in Chinese, is an enlightened being of Buddhist mythology often imbued with magical powers.

I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
Part 1 2001 July/August
Part 2 2001 September/October
Part 3 2001 November/December
Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special

Here are the lyrics from that article series.

  1. yue bei shi prepare
  2. chi shi beginning posture
  3. shuang guan tie men double shutting iron doors
  4. yao zi fan shen sparrow hawk turns its body
  5. shuang quan guan er double fists through the ear
  6. xie bu che zhang rest step, chopping palm
  7. gong bu shuang liao shou bow step, double upwards hand
  8. ma bu shuang zai quan horse step, double planting fist
  9. gong bu zuo chung quan bow step, left thrusting fist
  10. gong bu you chung quan bow step, right thrusting fist
  11. tui bu zuo chung quan backwards step, left thrusting fist.
  12. qi zing xiao jia seven star small frame
  13. jin ji du li gold rooster stands on one leg.
  14. er qi jiao two rising legs
  15. sun tong bei smooth through the back
  16. fu jian chung quan protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
  17. gong bu zuo chung quan bow step, left thrusting fist
  18. gong bu you chung quan bow step, right thrusting fist
  19. xie bu che zhang rest step, chopping palm
  20. fan bei quan reverse back fist
    21 gong bu chung quan bow step, thrusting fist
  21. jin ji du li gold rooster stands on one leg.
  22. er qi jiao two rising legs
  23. ti shi quan xin pao lift knee, fist heart cannon
  24. fu er shuang chung quan protect the ear, double thrusting fist
  25. tao ding chung quan above the head, thrusting fist
  26. gong bu zuo chung quan bow step, left thrusting fist
  27. gong bu you chung quan bow step, right thrusting fist
  28. tui bu chung quan backwards step, thrusting fist.
  29. qi zing xiao jia seven star small frame
  30. lao hu da zhang zui old tiger opens its mouth wide
  31. zuo dun tui left snap kick
  32. gong bu tui zhang bow step pushing palms
  33. mong hu chu dong fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  34. tao ding che zhang above the head, cutting palm
  35. long xing bu dragon form step
  36. gong bu chung quan bow step, thrusting fist
  37. ba wang ju ding conquering king lifts the urn
  38. lien huan zhao continuous claw
  39. hui shen shuang an zhang turn body, double pressing palms
  40. gong bu shuang tui zhang bow step, double pushing palms
  41. hu jian ben shou defend the shoulder, shoving palm
  42. shen feng jiao tornado kick
  43. tong zi bai fo youth bows to Buddha
  44. zuo pi tui left axe kick
  45. luo han suai jiao arhat sleeping
  46. ti shi shuang an zhang lift knee, double pressing palm
  47. gong bu shuang tui zhang bow step, double pushing palms
  48. shuang ben shou double pushing palm
    50: pu bu zuo che zhang crouching step, left cutting palm
    51: pu bu you che zhang crouching step, right cutting palm
  49. xie bu tui zhang resting step, push palm
  50. jin ji du li gold rooster stands on one leg.
  51. er qi jiao two rising legs
  52. gu shu pan gen ancient tree gnarls its roots
  53. mong hu chu dong fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  54. xie bu shuang zai quan resting step, double planting fist.
  55. ying xiong zuo shan hero sits on the mountain
  56. fan bei quan reverse back fist
  57. san bu gai quan forward step, cover fist
  58. mong hu chu dong fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  59. duan bu zai quan squatting step, planting fist
  60. gong bu chung quan bow step, thrusting fist
  61. gui bu zhuang zhao kneeling step, hitting elbow
  62. xie bu chung quan resting step, thrusting fist
  63. gong bu che zhang bow step, cutting palm
  64. ju huo xiao tian raise the torch to burn the sky
  65. ma bu xia zai quan horse step, downward planting fist
  66. tao ding san chung quan above the head, three thrusting fists
  67. ma bu do jian horse step, shaking shoulder
  68. ma bu zuo pan zhuo horse step, left elbow
  69. ma bu you pan zhuo horse step, right elbow
  70. zhuan shen guo quan turn around, hooking fist
  71. gong bu chung quan bow step, thrusting fist
  72. mong hu chu dong fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  73. gong bu dao quan bow step, pestle fist
  74. tian wang tao ta heavenly king lifts the pagoda
  75. da peng zhan zi roc spreads its wings
  76. ji zhang pu bu clap, crouching step
  77. gong bu liao shou bow step, upwards hand
  78. ho xiao tui backwards sweeping leg
  79. gong bu san tui zhang bow step, three pushing palms
  80. shen feng jiao tornado kick
  81. ying xiong zuo shan hero sits on the mountain
  82. sao shi ending pose[/QUOTE]

Well, sure the Luohan Quan no matter from what lineage at the very least show the 18 Luohan Hands postures. So, they connect to each other in that way. But often the sets, even if they have the same name, were pretty different from each other, depending on which lineage it came from.

But, many times you might people teaching “Luohan Quan” and it is material like typical Shaolin, such as Xiao and Da Hong quan, Pao Quan, and Luohan sets.
So, the name is used in a confusing way.

But, yes, of course, the real Luohan Quan is a specific core of material, regardless of the lineage, that draws from the material developed by Jue Yuan, Bai Yufeng, and Li Sou. This is a specific core of material that they developed, which became known as Luohan Quan later on, specifically because some of the sets they developed or had roots in were named 18 Luohan Hands.

The tough thing about Luohan Quan today at Shaolin is that the main set is Da Luohan Quan and barely anyone knows the full set of 108 postures (and 365 movements). I know that one version of it is taught in Dengfeng by the Liu family in their famous schools.
Then, what they show in exhibitions is called Da Luohan Quan, but is really an abbreviated set that is learned for show by most of the “monks” teaching or doing shows at Shaolin. So, they never get to learn the big 108 set because it is too long and complicate for them. (See how things die out?)

The Xiao Luohan Quan is another problematic set. There is really a Xiao Luohan Quan set that goes way back to Jue Yuan. It’s not that short of a set.
But, then there is this abbreviated version of it being done in Shaolin as well.
And sometimes the short version of Da Hong Quan is called Xiao Hong Quan as well! So, then it becomes even more confusing.

Correction:
The version in the magazine is the shortened version of Da Luohan Quan, which is often called Xiao Luohan today. It’s not the actual Xiao Luohan Quan set from ancient times.

I will post videos of the various Luohan sets so people can see them and not be so confused.

That Emei Luohan is from the later Qing Dynasty era.
It appears to be a Five Animals set, which some of the early Luohan is like.
It’s a lot different from the 18 Luohan Hands derived Shaolin Luohan sets.
Very southern Shaolin like, as is much Emei martial arts, very Hung Gar looking.

See the thread I did on Ming dynasty Shaolin from Jue Yuan and Bai Yuefeng, where I listed the forms they taught.

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;961199]No, I’ve only come across Shaolin Luohan Men in reference to Sun Yufung’s martial arts, in the Shandong area. Sun’s teacher Yuan Tung Tan was from the Shrine areas of Shaolin, far as I know. So, Yuan might have taught a lot of different Shaolin sets under the name of Luohan.

Miao Xing’s Luohan was different. I think his sets were from directly from the main Shaolin school.

There is also the Luohan style that comes from (Zi Ran style’s) Wan Laisheng’s Luohan teacher, who was Liu Bai Chuan (whose teacher was Yang Cheng Yun). Liu learned “Xiao Luohan” and “Luohan Shenda” from Yang.

And there was the Luohan Quan that Shi De Gen taught to those in the Dengfeng area of Henan (Shaolin area), such as Zhu tianxi and others.

None of these Luohan sets from these 4 different lineages are the same at all.
Some of it is Hong Quan sets and Taizu Quan sets as well.[/QUOTE]

  • Pai
  • Jia
  • Gate
    Each of these terms have a different implication when used to describe a martial arts tradition.

Although there are many specific sets that have the character’s Luohan in their name, “Shaolin Luohan Quan” and :Shaolin Luohan Men" were a way of say that a martial art tradition came from “Shaolin” or, out “from the gate/school of Shaolin”. If I’m reading you correctly, I would agree that these Shaolin traditions draw or are based on the material developed by Jue Yuan, and Bai Yufeng combined with older Shaolin methods and with Hong () Quan. Shaolin Luohan school had a large number of sets not just 18.

I as well know that there are at least four other Shaolin Luohan traditions besides the one my teacher learned - all came from Henan.. However, none of the sets from these different lineages are the same. Having said that there are some similarities in terms of basics and techniques.

  1. Sun Yufung’s Louhan which comes from the Shandong area. Sun’s teacher was Yuan Tung Tan was from Luoyang, far as I know.

  2. The Luohan style that cames from Liu Bai Chuan taught by Yang Cheng Yun.

  3. There is a Luohan tradition taught by Shi De Gen.

  4. and Miao Xing’s Luohan style.

[QUOTE=GeneChing;960237]

I also did a series outlining the entire Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan form by Shi Guolin.
Xiao Luohan: The Complete Shaolin Form
Part 1 2001 July/August
Part 2 2001 September/October
Part 3 2001 November/December
Part 4 2002 January/February Shaolin Special

Here are the lyrics from that article series.

  1. yue bei shi – prepare
  2. chi shi – beginning posture
  3. shuang guan tie men – double shutting iron doors
  4. yao zi fan shen – sparrow hawk turns its body
  5. shuang quan guan er – double fists through the ear
  6. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
  7. gong bu shuang liao shou – bow step, double upwards hand
  8. ma bu shuang zai quan – horse step, double planting fist
  9. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
  10. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
  11. tui bu zuo chung quan – backwards step, left thrusting fist.
  12. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
  13. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
  14. er qi jiao – two rising legs
  15. sun tong bei – smooth through the back
  16. fu jian chung quan – protect the shoulder, thrusting fist.
  17. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
  18. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
  19. xie bu che zhang – rest step, chopping palm
  20. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
    21 gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
  21. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
  22. er qi jiao – two rising legs
  23. ti shi quan xin pao – lift knee, fist heart cannon
  24. fu er shuang chung quan – protect the ear, double thrusting fist
  25. tao ding chung quan – above the head, thrusting fist
  26. gong bu zuo chung quan – bow step, left thrusting fist
  27. gong bu you chung quan – bow step, right thrusting fist
  28. tui bu chung quan – backwards step, thrusting fist.
  29. qi zing xiao jia – seven star small frame
  30. lao hu da zhang zui – old tiger opens its mouth wide
  31. zuo dun tui – left snap kick
  32. gong bu tui zhang – bow step pushing palms
  33. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  34. tao ding che zhang – above the head, cutting palm
  35. long xing bu – dragon form step
  36. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
  37. ba wang ju ding – conquering king lifts the urn
  38. lien huan zhao – continuous claw
  39. hui shen shuang an zhang – turn body, double pressing palms
  40. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
  41. hu jian ben shou – defend the shoulder, shoving palm
  42. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
  43. tong zi bai fo – youth bows to Buddha
  44. zuo pi tui – left axe kick
  45. luo han suai jiao – arhat sleeping
  46. ti shi shuang an zhang – lift knee, double pressing palm
  47. gong bu shuang tui zhang – bow step, double pushing palms
  48. shuang ben shou – double pushing palm
    50: pu bu zuo che zhang – crouching step, left cutting palm
    51: pu bu you che zhang – crouching step, right cutting palm
  49. xie bu tui zhang – resting step, push palm
  50. jin ji du li – gold rooster stands on one leg.
  51. er qi jiao – two rising legs
  52. gu shu pan gen – ancient tree gnarls its roots
  53. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  54. xie bu shuang zai quan – resting step, double planting fist.
  55. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
  56. fan bei quan – reverse back fist
  57. san bu gai quan – forward step, cover fist
  58. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  59. duan bu zai quan – squatting step, planting fist
  60. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
  61. gui bu zhuang zhao – kneeling step, hitting elbow
  62. xie bu chung quan – resting step, thrusting fist
  63. gong bu che zhang – bow step, cutting palm
  64. ju huo xiao tian – raise the torch to burn the sky
  65. ma bu xia zai quan – horse step, downward planting fist
  66. tao ding san chung quan – above the head, three thrusting fists
  67. ma bu do jian – horse step, shaking shoulder
  68. ma bu zuo pan zhuo – horse step, left elbow
  69. ma bu you pan zhuo – horse step, right elbow
  70. zhuan shen guo quan – turn around, hooking fist
  71. gong bu chung quan – bow step, thrusting fist
  72. mong hu chu dong – fearless tiger comes out from the cave
  73. gong bu dao quan – bow step, pestle fist
  74. tian wang tao ta – heavenly king lifts the pagoda
  75. da peng zhan zi – roc spreads its wings
  76. ji zhang pu bu – clap, crouching step
  77. gong bu liao shou – bow step, upwards hand
  78. ho xiao tui – backwards sweeping leg
  79. gong bu san tui zhang – bow step, three pushing palms
  80. shen feng jiao – tornado kick
  81. ying xiong zuo shan – hero sits on the mountain
  82. sao shi – ending pose[/QUOTE]

YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely ‘chao mei luohan’ and ‘fuhu luohan’. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.

This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou’s set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.

I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).

The character of the form is really important in Luohan Quan. All the versions I have seen except this one from Degen Da shi lack the character. Its part in performance and part in the specific form.

The term ‘xiao luohan’ is a modern naming culture. Actually it is the last Luohan quan actually practiced inside the temple (before communist era). Thus it is just referred to as Luohan quan. A lot of forms referred to as Xiao and Da nowadays were not always so. Often forms that were form DengFeng county have been called Da (greater area, e.g Da tongbei, Da pao quan, Da luohan) and forms that are now called xiao (i.e xiao tong bei, xiao pao, xiao luohan) are the forms most recently practiced in shaolin temple. They were originally just tong bei quan, pao quan, luohan quan. You will find the shaolin temple forms tend to be much longer (usually consisting of 3 sets linked together) they also contain exceptional poetic symmetry. Not to say deng feng does not have good forms, there are great forms there too, but they are forms which may have stopped being practiced at shaolin a long time ago, or were never practiced there. They are all shaolin pai though. ( I must note xiao and da hong quan were always xiao and da hong quan, and, all things considered, perhaps shaolins greatest forms).

I have encountered about 40 forms that could all claim to be shaolin Luohan quan. Since the last version practiced at shaolin was the one by Degen Da Shi then we must consider this as the Final Evolution of Shaolin Temples Luohan Quan (things evolve constantly, what if we were to consider the physics of Isaac Newton as the original physics and then abandon the last few centuries of evolution?) So, fascinating as it is to look for earlier incarnations we must have a cut off point.

Some families still retain a 9 set luohan quan, the sets have a symmetry spread over all the forms so can be practiced as one (if you have the stamina).

Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.

so a version constructed for competition which begins with tong zi bai fo… this one is not worth learning but is the most common version around today.

There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.

Oh,

I’ll add something. I am currently in China and will be for the forseeable future. My master Shi Yong Wen was a student of Degen Da shi (and of wu shan lin, and of su xi and many other famous masters).

He wrote the first book on Luohan quan published after the formation of PRC (back in the late 70’s). Many of the versions in DengFeng were simply learned form his books. It is the version as done by Degen Da shi. I cant speak for the version by shi guo lin but it is definatly much better than the version at Tagou (which i also know).

Anyway I am translating this book at the moment. It is rather short but contains the full luohan quan, and my master has the copyright and original retro photos. Anyway, does anyone know if there is a market for short books on forms? Does anyone know if a magazine like KungFu magazine would publish it in their magazine? Or would it be better to combine it into a larger compilation of all his books? I wish to help him publish his books for the west.

By the thanks everyone for your info on this thread… I WILL find this man and I WILL learn this version of luohan quan!

Hold on, I think some things are not correct exactly.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961370]YES! This IS luohan Quan. This is about the second best version that exists today. A long while ago there were nine sets, representing the characteristics of the 18 luohans. This form is a combination of two of the sets, namely ‘chao mei luohan’ and ‘fuhu luohan’. There is a zuo shan stance halfway through the form, most of the schools in dengfeng only practice to this halfway point.[/QUOTE]

The set shown in the 4 issues of the magazine is the abbreviated modern version of Da Luohan Quan, which here is being called Xiao Luohan Quan.
It is not the original Xiao Luohan Quan at all.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961370]This particular version you have listed is close to that in Tagou’s set of books written by Liu Hai Chao. I learned this version as well as the version shi Deyang does (halfway, first half also abreviated), and also a third and better version.[/QUOTE]

It is only a little bit similar to the set in the Tagou books. The set in volume 3 in the Tagou book is the Da Luohan Quan set that Dengfeng area does. It is not even the complete set, though it is very long. It is missing a section and missing the last section. I have another book by Liu Zhen Hai which shows the Da Luohan set with the missing sections, but that one is missing a different section. I have been told by someone from there to put the two together and then I will have the complete set (the sets in the books were marked with missing sections to see if someone only learned from books not from a teacher).

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961370]I say this is the second best set because the best must be considered as the one practiced by DeGen Da Shi. His form is the same as this one, although slightly shorter in the first half (not so many repeated straight punches) also with a few more unique stances. It goes all the way through to roc spreads its wings then sweep, tornado, outside cresent-zuo shan. Interestingly it does not contain the dragon steps (or drunken steps) used in most of the dengfeng versions and in the one above. This should be the same version as practiced by Zhu Tian Xi (anyone have a video?).[/QUOTE]

It is NOT the set practiced by Shi Degen at all. His Luohan Quan Yi Lu is not at all like this set and not at all like the Da Luoan, Xiao Luohan, or Er Lu Luohan sets shown in the 3 volumes of the Tagou books.
I have the original book that was published 20 years ago or more showing Shi Degen’s in drawings doing his Luohan Quan Yi Lu set, the full set.
Zhu Tian Xi has recently republished this book, I have it too, it is exactly the same.

I will post a list of videos showing the different Luohan sets. Including Shi Degen’s version.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961370]Typically the two surviving are the one we now refer to as xiao luohan (a seriously cut down version of the one above) and a form we refer to as da luohan or yi lu luohan, a good version is done by Zhang Shi Jie, he wheres white robes and does a great performance, you have prob all seen it on you tube. In the 9 set luohan quan i have seen these are yi lu and er lu. The second half of xiao luohan is san lu.[/QUOTE]

Zhang Shi Jie’s video is only the first 60 of the 85 postures of Shi Degen’s Luohan Quna Yi Lu set. it is missing the remaining section.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961370]There are several other epic (long) luohan quan forms, they all contain a spattering of moves similar to other luohan forms, all are probably abreviations of an earlier longer complete substyle of luohan quan.[/QUOTE]

This is true.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961376]Oh,

I’ll add something. I am currently in China and will be for the forseeable future. My master Shi Yong Wen was a student of Degen Da shi (and of wu shan lin, and of su xi and many other famous masters).

He wrote the first book on Luohan quan published after the formation of PRC (back in the late 70’s). Many of the versions in DengFeng were simply learned form his books. It is the version as done by Degen Da shi. I cant speak for the version by shi guo lin but it is definatly much better than the version at Tagou (which i also know).

Anyway I am translating this book at the moment. It is rather short but contains the full luohan quan, and my master has the copyright and original retro photos. Anyway, does anyone know if there is a market for short books on forms? Does anyone know if a magazine like KungFu magazine would publish it in their magazine? Or would it be better to combine it into a larger compilation of all his books? I wish to help him publish his books for the west.

By the thanks everyone for your info on this thread… I WILL find this man and I WILL learn this version of luohan quan![/QUOTE]

Can you give the Chinese characters for Shi Yong Wen and for the title of his Luohan Quan book? I made have it. I have just about every book in Chinese on martial arts concerning Shaolin, except for a few that I am missing.

lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist “saints” with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?

Luohan Quan videos readily available to see

Here’s as many as I could find of Luohan style videos, if you find more to add, let me know and I will update.
By the way, Shaolin Quan was originally called Shaolin Chui, as was Luohan Quan originally called Luohan Chui, before the Qing Dynasty era.

Luohan Quan Yi Lu taught by Shi Degen - also called Xiao Luohan Quan in Dengfeng / Tagou school (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr3q4vhzr58 First 60 of the 85 postures
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3k55h_HLA (same form, black background)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ppmJVwuOM0 (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sKH-zLYjEg (also shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18xrEtJjUTI (also shortened)

Da Luohan Quan (as taught by Liu Zhen Hai), first 30 postures of 85 in correct order:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRPOiHl18mA

Lao Jia (old frame) Luohan Quan (also called 3 Section Luohan) - Shi Deyang’s version (this set often called Xiao Luohan today because it is like a summary of Da Luohan):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDRkqO4Y7U4

Shaolin Er Lu Luohan Quan (also known as Refined Luohan Quan) - a modern times set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZzRcb5SXTY (shortened)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0IDQpkzPVc (just first third of set)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUJhm8O7Q (too fast and much abbreviated)

Shaolin Luohan Quan 27 Postures:
(no videos yet)

Shaolin San Lu Luohan Quan:
(no videos yet)

Related sets:

Shaolin Luohan Duan Da:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0vheDniwQE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQDYU98FTTs

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Zhang - 18 PALMS not hands (very rare to see):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum8qAFB8Wc

Luohan Shi Ba Shou (originally from Shandong Hua Quan style before entering Shaolin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raSvF3CiLx4

Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang’s totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)

Shaolin Damo (also known as Luohan) Shi Ba Shou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76m4-enGS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-Z4tiFkus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4YPOG8uvg

Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQKuio8mVs

Shaolin Xinyi Luohan Chui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbS0aXhvVGA

Unknown Luohan Quan sets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yP91ZyILso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMNCLIkcohA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCWfj9zVU4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3mbYdVPDKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d8OMqscdrw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZljLs_gYIOs

Da Luohan Quan from Chan family Nei Jia Quan style (derived from original Shaolin Luohan Quan in Henan from the 1600s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRjvN5U8tRc

Southern Shaolin - Choy Li Fut Luohan Pu Hu Quan (Fuk Fu Kune), the closest you can get to seeing what Luohan Quan might have originally looked like since Choy Gar is directly from Northern Shaolin, it is only two-three generations away from founder Monk Jue Yuan. Jue Yuan taught Yi Quan, who taught the founder of Choy (Chu) Gar.

:eek:

that’s a lot of material.

I liked the Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou 18 Hands set after watching them all. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;961511]lohan/arhat

these are generally regarded as the 18 buddhist “saints” with each depicted in a different posture of deep meditation.

could it be that any set that expresses these postures is a memory tool?[/QUOTE]

In the context of Shaolin the term “luohan” is significant specifically in its relationship to the martial arts. Within context to northern Chinese Buddhism, the ‘luohan’ were guardians and defenders of Buddhism. In Sanskrit they are known as the Arhan/Arhat/Sthavira, 'the disciples of Buddha and the guardians of Buddhism. The Indian word means: “one who is worthy of receiving deference” In Tibetan Buddhism (dain i darughsan) their role is further clarified as “vanquishers of the enemies (of Buddhism)". This is why when the term, “Shaolin Luohan Quan” or “Shaolin Luohan Men” is use, what is being referred to is the martial arts of the defending monks of Shaolin Monastery.
cheers,
r.

@ Sal

Wow, some list of videos… I can’t see them unfortunately as it is banned in china, however from your comments I recognise a lot of the videos.

Firstly we can’t be too pedantic about the forms, even two teachers from the same school will perform a form quite differently.

There are two major distinct forms. THere are many many versions of each, but the vast mojority fit into one of these two categories.

  1. The one that starts with two palms crossing at the dantian- sparrow hawk turns its body - wind through the ears - cut palm in rest stance. In the middle it has whirlwind kick to rest stance praise buddha, after which it has two pu bu kicks, one to each side then it jump kicks into ‘a gnarled tree with twisted roots’ the classic luohan posture.

This form is the one listed above, it is the ‘da luohan’ in Tagous books and, as different as may be, it IS the one taught by Degen Da Shi. Degen died in 1970. This form I know is the one he taught Yang Gui Wu, I assume (because i have not met him in person) it is the one taught to Zhu Tian Xi (assume because my master told me it was and because i didn’t get a chance to look inside but I have seen the cover of the book tian xi wrote, he uses ‘meng hu chu dong’ this posture does not exist in the other luohan quan set). Different as the one in Tagous books, the one listed and the one Degen practiced are… They at least contain the above mentioned postures in common. We can assume they come from one form originally.

This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.

The number of moves in this form vary between 36 (deyangs) about 85 (tagous). The book by shi yong wen lists 126 moves (although some intermediate postures are included).

In 9 form luohan this is er lo (to first zuo shan) and san lo.

  1. The form practiced by Zhang shi jie (white robes on black background, you know the video). This form is more common in Deng Feng. In Tagous books this is the form referred to as ‘Xiao Luohan’. Without actually knowing tagous form you might find this hard to see, however it is indeed the same form. Ofcourse a lot of moves are different and zhang shi jie has a lot extra shou fa, but it is basically the same sequence of the same moves. (some xu bu’s changed to gong bu’s and vice versa, a head but instead of an elbow, but roughly the same). This form does not actually have the Luohan quan character, apart form two moves (luohan shui jiao and Tiger shakes his fur).

In 9 form luohan quan this is yi lo luohan.

I do know Zhu Tian Xi spent some time teaching at Zhang Shi Jie’s school (hui guang Wu xiao, XIn Zheng), I dont know if Zhang shi jie is ZHu tian xis student.

THe video zhang shi jie made is about 15 years old now.

  1. There is a third common luohan quan. ‘refined luohan’ or er lo luohan in tagous books. This is very common in the big schools in dengfeng, it is often used for competition. Originally the form ended with the ‘contemplation of buddha’ stance (sword fingers pointed to the temple). However since most competitions require 1min20 second forms and this fell slightly short they added a few moves, so it has a few moves form Pao quan slapped on the end. THis form is not an old form. It is luohan quan made up of some of remaining fragments of luohan not contained in the two forms i named above. It is not really worth learning. It contains NO symmetry. You can tell how well constructed a form is from its subtle poetic symmetry. In modern forms they try to make every stance different to make it look cool, however this loses the character of the form, and loses the strategy hidden within. Its a modern form, don’t bother.

I dont know if Degen knew both of these forms (1 and 2) (he knew a lot and taught different things to different people). But I do Know for a fact that the form by Shi Yong Wen is the same as the form taught to Yang Gui Wu… I read an article by Zhu tian xi that was about how he travelled to meet Degens other students. They practiced forms together including luohan so I assume Zhu Tian Xi used the same form. It is of course possible that Zhu tian xi may have learned both 1 and 2 as above.

In my opinion 1 is the best luohan quan. 2 has perghaps more useful applications but 1 has more character. And it has the twisted roots stance which is awesome.

The book by shi yong wen is just called ‘Shao lin si luo han quan’ . On the first page is an old photo of Shi De Gen.

-YongWen

Oh,

and as to luohan shi ba shou, 18 hands

This is a different substyle, there is no relation between modern luohan quan and modern luohan 18 hands. I’m sure there was once a long time ago, but now they are two seperate things.

Some schools use 8 or 9 different forms of 18 shou which can be practiced together as 1. None of the moves look like luohan quan though.

The one by Deyang is also referred to as ‘small 4 rounds’, it is from Abbot ZhenXu’s lineage,

Luohan Shibashou

We ran an article on that in our 1998 November issue. Luo Han Shi Ba Shou - 18 Hands Shaolin Form: The Complete Shaolin Form and its Sanda and Qinna applications by Shawn Xiangyang Liu. He’s connected to Shi Deyang, but I’m not sure if this is the same form that Deyang propounds. The article details the lyrics in Mandarin, but I don’t have easy access to that file so I’ll have to copy them by hand. I’ve pulled the issue and hope to do so when I need a break.

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961664]This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.[/QUOTE]

its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that “daluohanquan”. the one master deyang does is also called “old frame”, laojia luohanquan. it is practiced in ven. suxi’s lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under. although ven. suyun’s disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like an abbreviation of that, so they share similar layout and sequences. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961664]This is also the same form practiced by Deyang under the name xiao luohan. Deyangs is about the least correct version. I know for a fact neither his master Sufa nor his master Suxi had this form, and i have never seen anyone else do it like this so i assume he changed some of the moves himself.[/QUOTE]

its actually a different set. sal linked to the videos of that “daluohanquan”. the one master deyang does is also called “old frame”, laojia luohanquan of 36 postures total. it is practiced in ven. suxi’s lineage as well as others, such as through ven. suyun, whom master deyang also received training under.

although ven. suyun’s disciples, such as masters deding and decheng do some postures with slight differences. but these are the laojia luohanquan, not the longer set, but it is like a shorter version of that, so they share similar layout and sequences. :slight_smile:

in fact, according to master deyang, first there were the neigong sets. from luohan shibashou came the 36 posture luohan boxing set, which today is called “xiaoluohan” or “laojia luohan”. then there came six roads of “daluohanquan”, and the enormous system of shaolin luohanquan thus evolved, complete with weapon sets as well.

Lao Jia Luohan quan huh?

Hmmmmm…

Well I will have to take your word for that.

However you should understand that this is a cut down version of a longer form, NOT the other way round. When you practice both for a while I think you will see. Its true that forms have moves added as often as forms have moves taken away but I have seen and have videos of many many many versions of ‘xiao’ luohan and I know 3 versions, I am fairly certain this is not the older version and there is very little anyone could say to convince me otherwise save reproducing an ancient document with actual pictures of the form in sequence.

Deyang is a great teacher and an even nicer person, never the less you musn’t take all he says or all his forms as gospal versions,

I would love to hear what people say about his version of Zhaoyang quan for example…

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;961831]Deyang is a great teacher and an even nicer person, never the less you musn’t take all he says or all his forms as gospal versions,

I would love to hear what people say about his version of Zhaoyang quan for example…[/QUOTE]

i would trust him on his experience in shaolin, having studied under several of the elder generation monks of the 20th century. also being the keeper of the library, transcribing ancient texts, and his work with ven. deqian.

also, regarding his sets, note that the video versions arent often what is taught at his school. not even as beginner versions. they are the bare bone versions. he teaches the fine detail in person though.

zhaoyangquan, for example, on the video is missing a series of leg and hand techniques in between the two “tongzi baifo” postures.

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;961536]Shaolin Luohan Shi Ba Shou Yi Lu (set 1 of 8 sets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXSi_zzhfzA (Shi deyang’s totally mixed up short version, missing moves and moves out of order)[/QUOTE]

not sure that this is “shi deyang’s” version. i’ve seen that master deru also teaches the set this way, with the postures all in the same order. there is only a small difference with stepping forward instead of backward or elbowing in a slightly different direction.

so, i’m not sure how it became so different from the arrangement of the set in the encyclopedia, but master deyang is not the only one to do it this way. (deru is also under ven. suxi)