In this video I show how the Tan Sao is applied in long and short ranges, and the concept of the short and long range Tan Sao as used in Wing Chun.
//youtu.be/Xuo_DUdeVjU
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1287033]In this video I show how the Tan Sao is applied in long and short ranges, and the concept of the short and long range Tan Sao as used in Wing Chun.
//youtu.be/Xuo_DUdeVjU
[/QUOTE]
Apparently in your wing chun. Your so called long tan sao IMO is not really a tansao
and it is over reaching. Possible witha much smaller person ina demo.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1287036]-------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently in your wing chun. Your so called long tan sao IMO is not really a tansao
and it is over reaching. Possible witha much smaller person ina demo.[/QUOTE]
You have a myopic view of what you think Tan sao is.
I like your long Tan Shou principle. The reason is simple. If you can extend your hand closer to your opponent’s face, you are fighting in his territory and you are not fighting in your own territory. This is the opposite of the boxing guard that you try to use your arms to protect your own head.
- Your “long Tan Shou”,
- my “rhino guard”, and
- the old man’s “zombie arms”,
all use similar concept.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1287040]I like your long Tan Shou principle. The reason is simple. If you can extend your hand closer to your opponent’s face, you are fighting in his territory and you are not fighting in your own territory. This is the opposite of the boxing guard that you try to use your arms to protect your own head.
- Your “long Tan Shou”,
- my “rhino guard”, and
- the old man’s “zombie arms”,
all use similar concept.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks..“.fighting in there space not yours” I like that..
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1287042]Thanks..“.fighting in there space not yours” I like that..[/QUOTE]
In some of Muhammad Ali’s fights, he liked to extend his left arm, put his left glove right in front of his opponent’s face and ready to punch his opponent with his right hand. His left hand not only blocked his opponent’s view, it also forced his opponent to cover his face and played defense.
This concept is used in both boxing and football.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1287043]In some of Muhammad Ali’s fights, he liked to extend his left arm, put his left glove right in front of his opponent’s face and ready to punch his opponent with his right hand. His left hand not only blocked his opponent’s view, it also forced his opponent to cover his face and played defense.
This concept is used in both boxing and football.
[/QUOTE]
it’s like putting up a wall in front of your opponent.
SC,
Please continue to decipher. Certainly you will get this is wrong, that’s not what we do. You are violating this or that. From their point of view they may in fact be correct. But from your point of view you are correct. Both sides will have reason why that is so. I appreciate you taking the time to demonstrate and explain with your videos.
YouKnowWho,
Wing Chun shares many similarities with certain eras of bareknuckle boxing. There are a handful of guys around the world trying to recreate it. That is what happens when people close doors and stop sharing. In boxing’s case it is more to do with the evolution of the art. Like Judo it evolved into primarily sport and techniques and tactics changed to accommodate the rules. Obviously that had to happen to be successful in the ring. Unfortunately it means the older ways that had/ have the potential to be viable out of the ring are for all intensive purpose lost. So these guys have to experiment with what was written down and decipher the miniscule amount of pictures or illustration that are left from those eras. It really becomes a guess. The smarter ones go outside of boxing to find similarities in other arts, to fill in the gaps on things that do not make sense. Best we can do. Those era’s of the art were lost to time and discarded because they did not fit the direction boxing was going. Why I love that there are traditionalist in other arts.
Another reason for using that extended lead is to create more distance between you and the other guy to increase the time you have to react. It does not work so well when one is over run. Ideally with the inclusion of footwork you will not be over run. That would be the ideal anyway.
All your reasons are equally valid.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287047]YouKnowWho,
Wing Chun shares many similarities with certain eras of bareknuckle boxing. There are a handful of guys around the world trying to recreate it. [/QUOTE]
Like this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z03QycJM__Q
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1287052]Like this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z03QycJM__Q[/QUOTE]
Yes. Still, like anything. Even they disagree. Personally, I would not discard anything modern just for the sake of keeping it historically accurate. But again, I am glad there are those that want to keep it as close to the original as they are able. Some refuse to look outside of boxing or western arts other will look into Asian arts to find answers. Some are amazing at finding the history and sources. Many are to old to partake and they tend to be the guys that locate the material. A passion of theirs.
Anyway, is it good, bad, same, different, better, worse? I guess that would depend on your point of view and what it is you are seeking from something.
Here is a video of Carl Cestari. He also used to teach this but most came to him for WW2 combatives. Carl had a strong background in Japanese arts. He died a few years back. This may be the first video anyone ever did to try and recreate a functional bareknuckle system based on older way. Did he ? For himself I would say , absolutely. He was hardcore but you may not be able to discern that from the video. Carl was also not against using modern if it was better and fit with what he recreated. Surprisingly Carl never participated in sport boxing. But his knowledge of boxing was great. I never met Carl personally but we communicated a lot. Later we had a falling out. Short reason, I stood up for another teacher of WW2 methods. Even that has it’s bull**** politics. I was saddened when he passed.
Sometimes you find ideas in places you would not assoctiate would have them
Dan Djurdjevic, I enjoy is blog very much. Dan is one smart thinker.
http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2010/07/more-about-claytons-gap.html
Anyway, enough of that from me. I would not want to be accused of trolling a thread by taking it off topic even if I believe there is inter-relation.
This is StoneCrushers thread on tansao so I will post no more about boxing in it.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1287043]In some of Muhammad Ali’s fights, he liked to extend his left arm, put his left glove right in front of his opponent’s face and ready to punch his opponent with his right hand. His left hand not only blocked his opponent’s view, it also forced his opponent to cover his face and played defense.[/QUOTE]
Ali had great results with doing this, and was one of the greatest fighters of all time as he also regularly boasted - and rightly so!
Unfortunately, this ‘technique’ has little-to-nothing to do with WC’s tan sau concept.
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287047]Wing Chun shares many similarities with certain eras of bareknuckle boxing. There are a handful of guys around the world trying to recreate it. That is what happens when people close doors and stop sharing…[/QUOTE]
Having never trained in WC, how can you speak for the art? And who said WC needs recreating or people ‘closing doors and not sharing’? I sure don’t see that being the case in the lineages I’ve been fortunate enough to study..
I don’t mean this to put you down, but maybe you could give some examples of what you mean in direct regards to your understanding WC’s history and also how it stands today. While it’s good to study and compare different arts, boxing has a totally different history and origin. IMO, it’s best if you’re going to point out shortcomings in the art of WC as you may see it today, maybe it would be best to give examples from a WC historical background as well 
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287055]This is StoneCrushers thread on tansao so I will post no more about boxing in it.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you could share your thoughts on WC tan sao or the applications SC presented in his clip then?
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1287046]SC,
Please continue to decipher. Certainly you will get this is wrong, that’s not what we do. You are violating this or that. From their point of view they may in fact be correct. But from your point of view you are correct. Both sides will have reason why that is so. I appreciate you taking the time to demonstrate and explain with your videos.[/QUOTE]
How do you determine what is right and wrong? Is it wrong because you where told it is wrong or because your unfamiliar with a different point of view.
If you where told it is wrong how do you know it’s correct.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287056]Unfortunately, this ‘technique’ has little-to-nothing to do with WC’s tan sau concept.[/QUOTE]
The WC Tan Shou is quite unique. It doesn’t exist in may other CMA systems such as long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Taiji, XingYi, … The Tan Shou by itself drew my interest into WC many years ago.
To me, the concept of Tan Shou is to
- extend my left arm between my opponent’s right arm and his head.
- extend my right arm between his left arm and his head.
If I can do
- 1, I can separate his right arm away from his body.
- 2, I can separate his left arm away from his body.
If I can do both 1 and 2, I can “separate” both of his arms away from his body and “occupy his center”.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1287058]How do you determine what is right and wrong? Is it wrong because you where told it is wrong or because your unfamiliar with a different point of view.
If you where told it is wrong how do you know it’s correct.[/QUOTE]
Those are great questions.
First - experiment with it and see.
Second- Often that is the answer. You were told it is wrong and that may prevent you from looking further and one may spend years trying to make something that will not work for them, even if it is “right, work” . I could not fight on the outside. I did not have the eyes. I had to be inside. I ate jabs and straights all the time. I missed jabs all the time. I have an elbow I constantly crack through out the day from those missed jabs. One of the reason I say I was a lousy boxer. I could not “box” on the outside. Ali style was not in the cards I had in my hand. I got to the point I dropped the jab. I would stick it out and when it touched something it was unload time. I knew the jab was all but worthless for me with my glasses off. I lose my depth perception. I ditched a major cornerstone of boxing because it did not work for me in sport. I also squared up , some may say to much. It worked for me. I knew I was going to be hit, Nothing I could do very well to prevent that. But it gave me the advantage of more power in my left hand. I had more distance to generate speed. I always advanced and cut the ring and cornered. Some guys I never made that work on. Such is life.
Third- have others made “wrong” work. If they have then you have proof that it can be done. Just because they made it work does not mean it will work for you specifically. You may have physical limitations that just make that unlikely.
Anyway, I think what you are doing is great. Can someone come along and punch holes in it ? F–K YES. And they may be right but that does not mean you are also not right. How many different versions of WC exist ? I know Ting wrote a book on that. Anyone recall how many ? Are the all the same ? Do some differ so much it is like it is a completely different art? Yet, is it still wing chun, if it is not the same wing chun another practices?
I can see the use of long/short and short/long use of Tan Sao in the OP vid as pretty much straightforward WingChun style usage. GreatMaster Tan Sao Ng would have been well aware of this variation, seems like it could work to one’s advantage if practiced often with Chi Sao partner to become reflexive/second nature. (Instead of using this tool just for blocking low kicks). Bong Sao for high kick/Tan Sao for low kick.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1287061]To me, the concept of Tan Shou is to
- extend my left arm between my opponent’s right arm and his head.
- extend my right arm between his left arm and his head.
If I can do
- 1, I can separate his right arm away from his body.
- 2, I can separate his left arm away from his body.
If I can do both 1 and 2, I can “separate” both of his arms away from his body and “occupy his center”.[/QUOTE]
You need to re-think what the concept of tan means to you.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1287057]Having never trained in WC, how can you speak for the art? And who said WC needs recreating or people ‘closing doors and not sharing’? I sure don’t see that being the case in the lineages I’ve been fortunate enough to study..
I don’t mean this to put you down, but maybe you could give some examples of what you mean in direct regards to your understanding WC’s history and also how it stands today. While it’s good to study and compare different arts, boxing has a totally different history and origin. IMO, it’s best if you’re going to point out shortcomings in the art of WC as you may see it today, maybe it would be best to give examples from a WC historical background as well
Maybe you could share your thoughts on WC tan sao or the applications SC presented in his clip then?[/QUOTE]
I am sorry, I did not see this post until just know. Was not avoiding your questions. I never said WC needs to be recreated. I replied to posts made about WC in another thread as regard to sport against other systems. One even admitted it fails. But I also pointed out that does not have to be the case and that there were those in WC that have done good to great against other arts. I also recommended going to those guy that have done so or bringing in a guy from another art if need be to help you figure out what in your art will work well in a sport capacity against other styles. I pointed out things I saw that were in fact very similar to boxing if you looked at those motions in another way. I may have recommend ditching stuff for that aspect. Certain things may have no place or real function there. I do not believe I said scrap the art.
It was not meant to offend but for an outsider to maybe point out things you are missing right before your eyes. IT WORKS. Maybe you can not work it but others are working it. FOR SPORT ! And unless you are trying to main or kill the guy, what is it ?
Yes, I think WC is very closed door even to the point of excluding different linages or instantly saying, that is wrong because we don’t do that as in the case of this video. Not that you are instantly wrong in saying it is wrong. That is your belief. Not his. Now another guy in another thread said, WC does poorly sparing against other arts. I disagreed and I am not even in WC. That was his beliefs. If I can see that and show proof and I am not WC why can not all in the art. Why must that be believed by anyone in the art ? Either through bad experience or being told, he believed that. I never meant WC had to reinvent itself as a whole, simply find out why you are doing poorly there and fix it. Go to this or that guy, he has answers.
Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot with you. Or if you felt I was trashing WC, I do not believe I ever made any post were I did so. I do tend to write, well, not " right". I suffer from dyslexia. It can really cause problems for not only myself but for others. I completely understand people being protective if they feel they are being wronged. Not my intent.
Ps. I think me using " you" “me” “us” etc, sometimes makes people feel like I single them out. I probably use that stuff incorrectly. If I was singleing anyone out there would be no dount that is what I am doing. I might start off by say, GO F-uck yourself mot-erfuc-er. That was meant to illustrate and not directed at you, to be clear. Those are a few words and phrases and proper usages I have mastered and I bet better than anyone here!