Not defeatist, realist. if you and I are about equal skill, but I am bigger and stronger than you, you will have a much harder time defeating me. I’ve been in the ring with guys bigger than me several times, so I know first hand how hard it can be to throw them or KO them. size always matters. Notice I never said you can’t overcome it, and also stated that as skill level becomes more equal, it means less. Regardless, it always matters. That’s why fighting sports have weight classes.
which assumption is correct
in the assumption of regulated ring fighting the size matters in an impact oriented way when the impact is supplied by comparable speed since both speed and weight equal power. however it is a fact that the more body to move the slower the striker so this also plays a factor. In the wrestling genre it is essential that the size is close because if both fighters are strong the smaller will hqave to resort to rule breaking to get the big guy off (again first hand experience)
nevertheless in no holds barred the situation quickly changes as i have experienced, as my master experienced in the old san shou rules (no wieght class no protection) because a simple fact is that the human skull or any other area can only withstand so much impact and as long as the little guy generates just enough his speed gives a decided advantage. (the bare knuckle bare elbow factor)
We do not need to cite several old cage matches (although we could) to see this as well.
Lastly there is an extreme to both ends. wee man could not defeat the monster on fearless without an incredibly lucky break. simply because we man can not generate enough striking power to disable the monster.
Tactics are another matter and are a matter of personal preference (most of which i keep to myself or close students) as i am sure much of you do as well.
[QUOTE=SevenStar;740295]Not defeatist, realist. if you and I are about equal skill, but I am bigger and stronger than you, you will have a much harder time defeating me. I’ve been in the ring with guys bigger than me several times, so I know first hand how hard it can be to throw them or KO them. size always matters. Notice I never said you can’t overcome it, and also stated that as skill level becomes more equal, it means less. Regardless, it always matters. That’s why fighting sports have weight classes.[/QUOTE]
I kind of concede this point. If the bigger person is better at nuetralizing a shorter person’s strengths, it will become a test of size, and the smaller person will likely get pancaked.
Interesting topic and reminds me of a story I heard.
A visiting tai chi master known for his fighting abilities was at dinner with a group of tai chi students (not his) in Hong Kong. The students asked the master, what would he do against a big, bulky fighter skilled in Shaolin. His answer, “Deflect and redirect to cover up and find a way to get away.” The students were appalled. They felt that tai chi should be ideal to deal with the bulky fully committed “Shaolin” style. The master said, if the person is close in skill then speed and size play a big factor. It didn’t matter what style the person used.
My take on this story parallels what my Sifu says. Speed and strength play a big part in a fight. If those are equal, skill will be the largest factor. If one has the advantage in the physical area, then it will take an advantage in the skill area to compensate.
Take this to a large level and it’s clear. Put yourself against a 5 year old. Is there any doubt who has the advantage? Could the five year old win? Possibly, but he would need a whole lot of skill to compensate for the size difference.
I want to be explicit. I’m not saying the smaller guy is SOL. I’m just saying he needs to compesate fo it
[QUOTE=Sifu Darkfist;740387]in the assumption of regulated ring fighting the size matters in an impact oriented way when the impact is supplied by comparable speed since both speed and weight equal power. however it is a fact that the more body to move the slower the striker so this also plays a factor.[/quote]
that is good when comparing cars, but not people. a ferrari speeding at 200 mph can have as much impact as a semi moving at 60mph, but humans don’t have such extreme speed differences. tyson is bigger than de la hoya. De la hoya is faster, though not so fast that tyson wouldn’t be able to hit him. Do you really think that his speed advantage is enough to make his blow as powerful as tyson’s? highly unlikely. the difference in their speed would not be that dramatic.
nevertheless in no holds barred the situation quickly changes as i have experienced, as my master experienced in the old san shou rules (no wieght class no protection) because a simple fact is that the human skull or any other area can only withstand so much impact and as long as the little guy generates just enough his speed gives a decided advantage. (the bare knuckle bare elbow factor)
I wouldn’t call that an equalizer, for the same reason. with two trained fighters, the bigger guy has the same chance of cracking your skull. As I said, the differences are not that dramatic. Now, if the skill levels are way different, then yes, but that was not the topic of the thread - it’s two guys of comparable skill.
Tactics are another matter and are a matter of personal preference (most of which i keep to myself or close students) as i am sure much of you do as well.
why would you? especially on a forum - chances are you won’t be fighting anyone on here. those closed door mindsets irk the bejesus outta me.
Size is a very key thing to consider but so is the context of what kind of situation we are talking about, combative ring sport, two rednecks at a bar fight, a home invasion, car jacking?
Size is such a serious element but if we are talking self defense from a non-generic standpoint, then conditioning, awareness, pain threshold, aggression and yes skill can be a factor, in a fight I don’t think things can be thought of in seperate terms, because they are often in synergy.
The question is what ratio of different elements are you facing as over-abundance of one can largely squash the others.
well there’s practice and then there’s live…
in practice big guys pay for holding back when little guys don’t feel that the rule applies to them.
in practice i’d say a big guy can be at a big disadvantage.
in live scenario, styles make fights.
Chris Byrd’s a good example.
The guy’s made his career out of out-speeding big heavyweights.
Now you take Chris Byrd, who fights at 215+ and put him in with a hard hitting cruiserweight (under 200) like Jirov, Bell, or Mormeck; and there’s a good chance this guy who’s stood toe to toe with the largest heavyweights, will get his head taken off by a smaller fighter with both power and speed.
This is an aspect a lot of boxing experts have apparently forgotten.
Dempsey beat guys way bigger than him because of his speed and the fact that his style was tailored to fighting larger opponents- much the same for Tyson and Frazier.
Once Tyson sold himself on the idea that he was some, big, 1 punch KO artist, a lot of his skills went out the window.
For Tyson, Frazier, and Dempsey, once it became harder for them to sneak under their opponent’s shots, they would have to make adjustments to their style.
Ali was much bigger than Frazier in their fights, but it was always close. Few people would say that Ali’s size advantage allowed him to bully frazier, it was frazier who stalked ali around the ring.
style, speed, and power play much bigger roles than pure height and weight.
I think this wraps it up nicely
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;740552]well there’s practice and then there’s live…
in practice big guys pay for holding back when little guys don’t feel that the rule applies to them.
in practice i’d say a big guy can be at a big disadvantage.
in live scenario, styles make fights.
Chris Byrd’s a good example.
The guy’s made his career out of out-speeding big heavyweights.
Now you take Chris Byrd, who fights at 215+ and put him in with a hard hitting cruiserweight (under 200) like Jirov, Bell, or Mormeck; and there’s a good chance this guy who’s stood toe to toe with the largest heavyweights, will get his head taken off by a smaller fighter with both power and speed.
This is an aspect a lot of boxing experts have apparently forgotten.
Dempsey beat guys way bigger than him because of his speed and the fact that his style was tailored to fighting larger opponents- much the same for Tyson and Frazier.
Once Tyson sold himself on the idea that he was some, big, 1 punch KO artist, a lot of his skills went out the window.
For Tyson, Frazier, and Dempsey, once it became harder for them to sneak under their opponent’s shots, they would have to make adjustments to their style.
Ali was much bigger than Frazier in their fights, but it was always close. Few people would say that Ali’s size advantage allowed him to bully frazier, it was frazier who stalked ali around the ring.
style, speed, and power play much bigger roles than pure height and weight.[/QUOTE]
Well said Pork Chop! I was going to post some more on this topic but you pretty much said what I was going to plus a lot more. I think your last sentence really sums it all up.
I don’t think anyone disagrees with it. But, these are all similarly skilled guys as well. Take a journeyman cruiserweight and toss him in the ring with the heavy and he will have trouble. It’s no different with a boxer, though may be more noticeable with a grappler.
Are we even all on the same page here? As long as no one’s saying that size doesn’t matter and as long as no one’s saying that size is all that matters, I think everyone agrees more than we disagree.
To think that size doesn’t matter - even among skilled fighters - is a delusion. Obviously, no one thinks that size is all that matters, otherwise that person probably wouldn’t be here.
Here’s one for the size doesn’t matter crowd:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/60685/sumo_wrestler_vs_female_orangutan/
Now the question is it pure animal strength or technique that won?
well if the sumo stayed on his @ss/back like the ape did, i doubt he would have gone over.
lol
he toppled like a tower when he stood up.
i say technique…but boy, to be outsmarted by an ape…ouch