[QUOTE=JDK;729914] Is there a thread or forum that you know of that discusses WHY no Traditional Masters have been successful in the UFC Competitions???"[/QUOTE]Er, let me assume you haven’t had the internet until now. These arguments have dominated MA forums for maybe more than ten years now.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;729938]it’s called San Da…[/QUOTE]If you’re even suggesting san da is even comparable in terms of innovation, training paradigms or even brutality I suggest you start by rereading your friend Mark Tripp’ s history and any other histories of judo/jujutsu you can find.
[QUOTE=SifuAbel;729959]99% of MMAers aren’t at the skill level of UFC either. [SIZE=“7”]NEXT!!![/SIZE][/QUOTE]LOL Very very true!
[QUOTE=JDK;729972]Thank you streetfighter.
It is sad that a 17 year old is the only one brave enough to state the truth.
[/quote]And it’s sad that you, with ‘25 years training, 18 years of marriage and 2 kids’ sound just like a seventeen year-old. The one single truth he has stated is surprise surprise, something you agree with and that you started this already mummified thread with the intention of eliciting.
BTW, since karate is obviously so useless perhaps you can explain why a lot of kyokushin guys still do very well over here? And again, as somebody mentioned, JJ…? Or boxing, there’s an art that’s nearly as old as wing chun kung fu and seems to do pretty well in the cage…? Muay Thai anyone? All as parts of a healthy balanced diet! It’s a no-brainer, incidentally.
Did you have a point? Or was it all just rhetorical questions? Don’t bother with an answer!
[QUOTE=The Xia;730007]You didn’t answer the question.[/QUOTE]
Yes, he did, but it was only 18 words, not 50 or whatever. It didn’t go into too much depth though! [QUOTE=unkokusai;730005]Its not that CMA doesn’t do well against MMA, it doesn’t do anything against MMA.[/QUOTE]LOL. True that.
Ok let’s try this again. This time try actually answering it instead of taking the question and changing it into a statement with a slightly different twist. Here is the question. Why don’t you generally see CMA in MMA venues?
[QUOTE=The Xia;730012]You reformed his question with a new angle and made it a statement. That’s not answering the question lungushan asked you.[/QUOTE]
I can’t make you less stupid. Just keep reading it over and over until the point comes to you.
[QUOTE=The Xia;730016]Why don’t you generally see CMA in MMA venues?[/QUOTE]
Well, that’s not the question he asked. As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;730017]I can’t make you less stupid. Just keep reading it over and over until the point comes to you.[/QUOTE]
unkokusai throws out another insult. What a surprise! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=unkokusai;730017]Well, that’s not the question he asked. As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.[/QUOTE]
You know what he meant poop-stink. As for your answer, what leads you to believe that? Please elaborate. Try giving out a well thought out, lengthy post for once.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;730018]As for your question, it sure seems likely that there are not enough CMA folks who honestly feel they have a good chance at winning in that venue.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The Xia;730008]So do you believe that the UFC and similar venues are the be-all end-all to fighting? Do you believe that if you don’t see it in the UFC, it has to suck? If that’s what you believe, how do you account for TMA guys that fought for their life on the streets and what about tournaments, that were far more brutal then the UFC, that TMA guys fought in? What do you make of that?[/QUOTE]
No…the UFC is not the end-all, be all to fighting.
They are however one of the closest things to testing ones fighting ability, with as few rules as possible, and clser to a street -fight-attack than any sparring session in most ( not all) TMA Schools.
I had the privilage of watching an a couple old Video’s of a former teacher of mine fighting in an underground Match ( and yes…they do exist) over seas in another Country.
I and a few other students watched in amazement as our teacher took and dished out punishing no-holds-barred strikes, kicks, throws and eventually some ground fighting.( not much…both Master’s quickly got to their feet so as to avoid
being killed while on the ground.
The Video ended with my teacher winning the fight with a groin/ throat slash combo.
Fortunately the other fighter couldnt continue due to a broken voice box and extreme pain in his groin that knocked him unconcious.
I the other Video…and I hate to recount this…my teacher was “challenged” to a fight with weapons…which at first he refused.
The younger fighter insisted on insulting him until he agreed to fight him.
The “fight” lasted less than 30 seconds…the young, brash challenger got his head cut off with a single Broad Sword strike.:eek:
I am not embelishing or lying…I watched it with my own eyes, and we were all
sworn to secrecy and that is why Imhave avioded names and exact locations.
So…what tournaments are you referring to that are more brutal than the UFC?
I have watched many with much punishment being dealt out because of boxing gloves and rules that gave hurt fighters standing eight counts and round limits…
but noe as real as the Early UFC’s before the public outcry and they softened up the fight with rulses, rounds , and judges.:rolleyes:
Probably the most “real” reason is that our training methods aren’t geared towards competitive fighting. That’s not an excuse, just an explanation. For those schools that do practice for competitive sparring, there isn’t an excuse.
You can try to guess why they don’t try till you’re blue in the face.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for your honesty and logical reasoning Ravenshaw.
PS
Not much guessing need though…the competitive sparring schools tried early on and got killed…today they know better than to step inan Octagon with Liddel,
Ortiz, Tim Silvan or…even a Tank Abbot a few years back.
[QUOTE=lunghushan;729996]To be perfectly REAL, I’ve gone and checked out the training of the UFC/MMA fighters. We have at least one guy here locally (Ivan Salaverry) who used to train (maybe still does) in Kirkland, at AMC Pankration.
What they do is kickboxing, boxing and grappling.
There are people there who are just average martial arts geeks, if you will. In fact, there were guys there that I ran into at wing chun and silat class.
And then there are the guys who compete.
The only difference seems to be, that the people who compete, a) train for competing, meaning they spend more hours and they train with people who compete, and b) they’re a lot more buff. They seem to work out a lot more and have a LOT more muscle mass.[/QUOTE]
Good post lunghushan…
The training is vastly different for the student who decides to enter a UFC -Like Event.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;730011]Er, let me assume you haven’t had the internet until now. These arguments have dominated MA forums for maybe more than ten years now.
If you’re even suggesting san da is even comparable in terms of innovation, training paradigms or even brutality I suggest you start by rereading your friend Mark Tripp’ s history and any other histories of judo/jujutsu you can find.
LOL Very very true!
And it’s sad that you, with ‘25 years training, 18 years of marriage and 2 kids’ sound just like a seventeen year-old. The one single truth he has stated is surprise surprise, something you agree with and that you started this already mummified thread with the intention of eliciting.
BTW, since karate is obviously so useless perhaps you can explain why a lot of kyokushin guys still do very well over here? And again, as somebody mentioned, JJ…? Or boxing, there’s an art that’s nearly as old as wing chun kung fu and seems to do pretty well in the cage…? Muay Thai anyone? All as parts of a healthy balanced diet! It’s a no-brainer, incidentally.
Did you have a point? Or was it all just rhetorical questions? Don’t bother with an answer!
Yes, he did, but it was only 18 words, not 50 or whatever. It didn’t go into too much depth though! LOL. True that.[/QUOTE]
I apologize if this is a worn-out topic…I didnt mean to start insults and post-fighting.
I hoped I had missed something…I hoped someone had a Master who entered the UFC and won a fight or two.
Not win the whole thing…just beat a few of the mediocre opponents.
The stark reality is that the UFC exposed the flaws in most Traditional Martial Art Schools.
Make all the excuses or cop-outs you want…bottem line ?
In the past 13 years the UFC has opened its doors to all comers
No TMA Practitioner or Master, or Young strong Senior Student of a Master
has won or even came close to winning.
Therefore, like my analogy with football…2007 is different than the Ming-Dynasty Era or othe time perods in huma history.
Todays top UFC athletes have the advantage of all the knowledge of the previous Martial Arts Masters, superior Nutrition, personal trainers, Weights,
hours and hours of grappling and Combat Jujitsu practice…among other trainging
Tools and a heavy emphasis on Cardiovascular training.
Its really not fair to compare.
Like I said…todays steroided up Monster Football Teams would kill the best teams of the 1960’s and 70’s. The Game has changed.
So has fighting in the 21rst Century.
I will continue my practice of traditional trainng because I love it, and it will allow me to keep a reasonable degree of good health, flexibility and ability to defend my self against most untrained streetfighters and everyday Joe’s..in the unlikely event I am forced to fight.
I am blessed with a natural strong striking ability, and my TMA training has only enhanced and made me better.
Again..I apologize for stirring up a hornets nest…I am New to this site and was just seeking differnt points of veiw.
Didn’t Shooter have his Taiji guys fighting MMA, and hasn’t Asia from Bullshido fought in MMA?
I was under the impression a lot of guys do that stuff, with varying results.
I think it’s just the majority prefer to fight in our own venues.
Why should we go to UFC, for example, where the striking seen there is pretty lack luster, when we can go to Sanshou and face tougher striking competitors?
I have just lost the whole “MMA (especially UFC) is the superior method” perspective some time ago. I don’t see that they are any better than any other fighting venue. UFC suppporters like to ask “If your so good, why won’t you play with us”, and the answer is because the UFC isn’t the be all end all. it just “Thinks” that it is.
You don’t see UFC guy go fight in K1, or Sanshou, why not? because they’d get thier clocks cleaned;. Why you ask? Because UFC guys have crappy stand up. And when one of our guys DOES go fight UFC, (Cung Le) they do remarkably well. Which is expected because they are going up inferior competition.
UFC supporters would rather stay in thier little “Grappeling” dominated world, and not really explore tougher opponent. They just want to “Think” they do, because they are delusional. Deep down they know though, and that is why we have all these UFC nut riders allways going on and on about how TCMA suck (yet are afraid to come to our venues and fight). It’s like if they say it enough, it will become true, and they can then feel all comfortable in their “Mock” superiority.
So basically they all have no credibility with me anymore.
The few TMA fighters that entered the early UFC matches were slaughtered.
I remember watching one particuliar Tai Kwan Do guy get knocked to the ground in about 45 seconds of the first round…
[/QUOTE]
It’s such a very dead horse, but I can’t help pointing out that in the early UFC traditionalists actually did very well. I recently watched the first four UFCs on DVD. I saw a Tae Kwon Do guy beat a man almost a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier to a bloody pulp. Watched a Kempo guy floor an enormous Sumo wrestler… a Savate guy beat a giant wrestler as well, and of course Jujutsu was a dominating force…
As far as I can tell, things started going downhill for traditionalists in that vaunted venue when the rules began to encourage fighters to mix grappling and striking, and developed rules and weight classes for the new sport. There’s nothing wrong with that, but the whole competiotion changed from “lets test our styles” to “lets develop a new sport.”
At any rate, it’s grossly inaccurate to say “TMA…were slaughtered” in the early UFC.
If they would win they’d do it in a heart beat because the promotion and recognition would be huge… right now these men are willing to make fools of themselves selling all kinds of stupid $hit (like magnets) in the magazines. If they would drop someone with confidence in the UFC they’d do it in a heart beat.
Why you won’t see them:
No matter how much you train your iron palm against a non-resisting bag and use jow, you can’t iron palm your own jaw bone. You have to be VERY comfortable with being struck at… when was the last time you witnessed a “traditional master” fight with anyone? Not a student. Not a demonstration… full out fight against someone who wants to beat them?
You haven’t seen it because it doesn’t happen. And the one or two times I’ve seen a self appointed “master” fight under more open style rules they were humiliated (one brokem arm … another turns and cowards in a corner).
Now, with that said countless people will step up on here and say they’re not interested for whatever reason. No $hit! Just like I’m not interested in surfing 100 foot Jaws. I would if I could (and live) but I can’t so I’m not interested.
Honestly, do you see a 40 year old, out of shape “Monkey master” stepping up and beating Chuck Lidell?
Very very true!
