Lacy and Bak Mei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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The late Grandmaster Cheung Lai Chin was chief instructor of the Wampoo military school in Shanghai, Grandmaster Cheung has three sons, Cheung Bing Sum, the eldest that has passed away, Cheung Bing Fat the second son and Cheung Bing Lum the third and youngest and probably is the leader of the Bak Mei association in HK. Cheung Lai Chin died in 1962 while having tea at a tea house.
Grandmaster Cheung Lai Chin learn Bak Mei from a young monk that learn from monk Kwong Wai. Monk Kwong Wai was the direct inheriter of Bak Mei Kung Fu. During the 1800’s while having tea at a teahouse in China, Grandmaster Cheung Lai Chin met this monk that was left alone by the Qin soildiers, because of that Cheung Lai Chin wanted to know what this monk know that the soldiers were afraid of, after many months Cheung Lai Chin followed the monk and challenged him, the monk made one move and knocked Cheung Lai Chin into a well causing a cut on his forehead.
At this time Cheung Lai Chin already was a master of the Dragon system under Lum Yoke Tong who learned Dragon from the Dai Yoke Monk. Later Lum Yew Kwai took over his father’s Dragon system and became the grandmaster. At that time Cheung Lai Chin had learned and mastered several arts, but because he was defeated by this young monk he wanted to know what type of Kung Fu this monk knew. At first this monk refused to tell him, but later he admitted that he learn Bak Mei from his shifu the Kwong Wai monk. Cheung Lai Chin then ask this young monk to teach him and he refused, the monk said his shifu will kill him if he even talk about Bak Mei.
Cheung Lai Chin followed the young monk for many months and finally he got to the Temple where this Kwong Wai monk is AND FOUND OUT THIS MONK LOVE TO EAT RAW EGGS, So Cheung Lai Chin went there everyday and bring him eggs and beg to learn. Finally the monk taught Cheung Lai Chin Bak Mei.
Originally there was only five forms to the Bak Mei system. Later Cheung Lai Chin added 10 Dragon shadow forms Lung Ying Pai, because it was Cheung Lai Chin’s effort that brought Bak Mei to the public he is the Grandmaster and he is a great master, the best in those days. He had a student named Har Hon Hung, this student broke away to form Yow Kung Moon, when Cheung Lai Chin was alive. He gave this student a title. He called him “the illegal shifu Har Hon Hung”. For many years when Cheung Lai Chin was alive he did not consider Yow Kung Moon as a part of Bak Mei.
JIM LACY IS A FRAUD AND IS ONLY SELLING STOLEN TAPES!

[This message has been edited by Cheung Bing Fat (edited 08-11-2000).]

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Welcome to this board,

You mention 5 original pak mei forms. Which five forms are those in your opinion?

Regards, Lau

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i thought Lam Yiu Kwai was the creator of Lung Ying Mor Yiu, and that there wasn’t in fact a southern Dragon Style before that.

Apparently, Both Bak Mei and Lung Ying were part of Lam Gar (don’t know if this is the same Lam as Lam Yiu Kwai…)

Apparently both Cherng Lay Chun and Lam Yiu Kwai learnt Lam Gar and then the name changed after Cherng Lay Chun to Bak Mei and with Lam Yiu Kwai to Lung Ying Mor Kiu.

The story of Bak Mei once being Lam Gar was told to Grandmaster Ip Shui (Southern Mantis), who was a good friend of Grandmaster Cherng.

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Hello - interesting topic!

I would speculate that “Lam Gar” would be a convienent title for the system the Lam family practiced at the time. From what I can gather, this was a common Hakka system which was widely practiced in that area. Some people call it “Chu Gar”, or “Southern Praying Mantis”. In any event, it seems to be a short hand system. In Lung Ying, forms from this system are identified by “old session”, and have a shorter, crisper, flavour. This Art seems connected to the “Hai Fung Monk” lineage.

It seems that “Dragon” (as taught by Tai Yuk)was a smaller, more specialized, softer / internal style (perhaps based on Siu Lum Dragon?), which Lam Yiu Kwai then combined with the older system he knew, to create modern day Dragon Style. I would also speculate that Bak Mei evolved in a similiar fashion, with Cheung Lai Cheun combining elements of the Hakka art which he specialized in (they both were from the same village apparently) with what he learned from the Monk.

It seems to me that people want and need to think they are practicing a pure, thousand year art form, and that is why these great masters decided to claim their Art through one side of the lineage, along with the myths and legend of the style. I guess that it has never been popular to say that you are “inventing a new style” - even if it is soundly based on the combination of two complete, older systems…

Anyway, I hope I am not offending anyone with my thoughts - like I say, only my own speculation…

kevin

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[This message has been edited by LION (edited 08-14-2000).]

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I have not seen alot of this info on any website!

"I guess that it has never been popular to say that you are “inventing a new style”
Not til America Kevin, not til America…

I THINK this Lam Gar stuff is hooey. But, Lam Yew Gwai did change his fathers art and Cheung did add his own stuff to fill out Bak Mei. Yew-Gwai’s Lung Ying Pai has come to be known as LY Mor Kiu… It ain’t all in the books boys…

I have been told by Jook Lum people that all these southern shorthand arts came from South Mantis. I guess the “Bamboo Templars” don’t realize these claims make them seem LESS legit and not MORE…

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 08-11-2000).]

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Just thought I’d confuse things a little further with a run down of Southern Hakka Systems.

We know that there are four ‘main’ branches of Southern Mantins.

Chu
Chow
Iron Ox
Bamboo Forest.

Word has it that Chu Goon Wah’s father was a practitioner of CHU GAR GAO (This is seperate from Chu Gar Praying Mantis), he told Chu Goon Wah to learn Chow Gar from Lau Sui. After Lau Sui’s death, Dispute over who’s grandmaster leads towards Chu Gar Chow Gar lineages…

Bamboo forest is a further offstrand from the Chu Gar Gao Chow Gar hybrid of Chu Goon Wah.

Iron Ox…No info (but we have a staff form claimed to be from Iron Ox system in Chow Gar)

Lau Sui, Lam Yiu Kwai and Cheurng Lay Chun were all from Wai Yerung (I think that’s the place). The were know as the three tigers…

Wai Yerung is well known for its Martial arts. Namely Beggars styles (Low Man Pai), Lam Gar and others…

Both Cheung and Lam Yiu leant Lam Gar and changed the names…

Cheung and Lau Sui were 'apparantly’good friends, thus Ip shui knew Gradmaster Cheung through his Sifu.

Later on the the line. Lam Yiu Kwai came to Hong Kong to open up school. Lost to Grandmaster Ip shui, news all over papers at the time (dunno if it’s true though, just what Si-gung Ip Shui told me…)

But it seems pretty obvious from the similarities of Mantis, Dragon and Bak Mei that there was alot of trading way back in their lineages…

But the way i see it, all of them came from Lao Man Pai, the Hakka Beggars. And man, there were pleanty of these guys so I wouldn’t count of them all doing the same thing the same way!!!

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Hi KEVIN BARKMAN and PHU LE .PHU LE you said that CHU GAR GAO is different than CHU GAR SOUTHERN MANTIS what is the diference between these to arts.KEVIN BARKMAN you had said that LAM GAR was a style that the Lam family practiced and that some people call it CHU GAR or southern praying mantis.YOU both said that LAM GAR is a old HAKKA style.THERE is a book called PHOENIX EYE FIST A SHAOLIN FIGHTING ART of SOUTH CHINA by authors CHEONG CHENG LEONG and DON F DRAEGER this art is also called CHUKA wich would be CHU GAR KUNG LEK who post on this board said that this art is a HAKKA DRAGON style is it possible that this art might be the LAM GAR STYLE or the old LAM family style of LAM YUI KWAI that Kevin said was also called CHU GAR SOUTHERN MANTIS or is it possible that this art could be just CHU GAR GAO PHU LE said that CHU GAR GAO and CHU GAR SOUTHERN MANTIS are different.The PHOENIX EYE FIST STYLE seems to have jop mah waist twisting and Dragon hand forms.FIRE HAWK

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The original post seems to take a rather roundabout approach but it seems to be Bak Mei dissin’ lacy which is very cool.

I had that silly book 20yrs ago but just saw it reprinted in Borders the other day. It was funny how overly simple it seemed then but now i know thats all good. There is so much more info available nowadays that it’s lack of any real info is it’s real shortcoming, and perhaps it’s a book about how material goes to Indonesia and becomes worthless.

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You have to take nate that there were many different Hakka style back in Wai Yearng. I was just told that Lam Yiu Kui and Cherung Lai Chun Learnt what was at the time Lam Gar.

Grandmaster Cherung Lai Chun was a friend of Lao Sui and Ip Shui, and thats how I know Cheurng practiced Lam Gar before it was named Bak Mei…

As for Chu Gar and Chu Gar Mantis, I was told that Chu Goon Wah’s father practiced this ‘other’ Hakka style, but knowing that Lao Sui’s kung fu was good, sent his son to learn from him. Thereafter, Chu Goon Wah taught his own version of Mantis, the combination of both Chow Gar and Chu Gar Gao.

I’ve personally no idea what the differences are, but i believe they would be rather usimilar…

But what I was told is that there has always been a Chu Gar style, but Chu Gar tong long was only around after Chu Goon Wah. This may also be the cause of alot of people thinking that Chu Gar is the original and all southern mantis systems devive from it…

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[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 08-14-2000).]

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Cheung Lai-Chin is Hakka and so are all of the mantis and dragon systems. Hakka are the people who are famous for southern systems so what’s you guys point exactly?

All these types of southern systems are almost the same in forms and techniques.
Southern Mantis, Bak Mei, Lung Ying are all basically the same in forms and techniques just the principles are different.
Dragon, Mantis, Mok Gar all use the right foot as the leading foot. Bak Mei and Bak Fu Pai use a left leading foot.

[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 08-13-2000).]